What makes a well-written song?

1k · June 29, 2001

In the What's Wrong with Teen Pop thread, the topic of well-written songs came up.

Being that a song does not have to be just like something out of a "How To Write a Hit Song" book in order for it to be successful or enjoyed, what constitutes a "well-written" song to you?

Notape_dup1 · June 29, 2001

Short simple answer: profundity

-nt

RecreationalThinker · June 29, 2001

Originally posted by notape:
Short simple answer: profundity

-nt

What about well-written instrumental songs?

Notape_dup1 · June 30, 2001

An instrumental tune can be profound as well as a lyrical number. To me, a well written instrumental is a canorous orchestration that draws you in and wont let you go, and at the end leaves you wanting more.

a perfect example: 'Peaches en Regalia' by Frank Zappa

-nt

Tedster · June 30, 2001

Good verse, good hook...good lyrics...

So then, what defines "good"?

Wellllll....mmmmm....

This is so subjective. If you like it, it's good. Tastes vary. I like coffee, but not everyone does. To refine that, I like my coffee with creamer but no sugar. Not everyone does. There are plenty of songs I like that another person wouldn't care for.

Kinda like saying "What makes a good flavor of ice cream?" Chocolate and nuts, you say? Well, I can take or leave chocolate and nuts...but I love stuff like "Dutch Apple Pie"...but, that's my taste.

I've heard people rave about some folkie occasionally, and I listen and it leaves me cold. Like, "I should like this, all the right people like this, what do they hear that I don't"...but I can't be that way as it's purely a taste thing.

I'm rambling, huh? Sorry...

rold · June 30, 2001

two words: emotional impact. The more, the better.

IMO

Harold

Steve LeBlanc · June 30, 2001

Awwwlll, c'mon Ted...coffee is better black, no cream or sugar...shows how much you know. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif

Rod S · June 30, 2001

I think it's just taste. Whatever floats your boat.

I've heard songs that I thought were noise. Listening to that and 5 minutes of white noise has the same effect to me. But other people dig it. So who am I to say who's right or wrong?

I knows songs that I think have been done by incredibly talented musicians, but the song is so busy and complex that it's almost annoying.

I think it just can't be answered. I used to think there were at least some 'ground rules', but I'm not even sure anymore. The only thing I can say for sure is a good song is a song that means something to you, as a composer, and hopefully to the listener. People find meaning in different forms of aural expression, so it's tough to find a global definition

artnoiser · June 30, 2001

I always thought that there is a difference between "good" (I like it) and "good" (high quality). "I like it" is good when someone likes it, as in, "dude, this song is really good." But isn't there also good/quality that can be critiqued and evaluated by a set of rules that are determined by the style the song is written in. For example, if you are going to compare Backstreet Boys' lyrics to, say, Bob Dylan's (and I am not a Dylan fan), you critique one in light of the other, but you already are using different rules (BSB and Baroque might be a more poignant example of what I just meant).

Of course, not every one is familiar enough with the rules so most of the arguments are being made on grounds of personal taste, or at least, personal taste comes into discussions really quickly, because of the emotions involved (some people LOVE BSB, others LOVE Dylan).

Maybe the big difficulty is to define what these rules are, who defines them (history?), for example? And once there is more or less some agreed thing that a group of experts agree on, they are in good shape to talk about the quality of certain expressions of art (paintings, songwriting, arranging, producing, poetry, etc). But how much does quality really matter to most of radio's listeners? Once you really really like a piece of music, your emotions are involved a lot more than your intellect, and emotions are hard to argue with...

Not all that looks like art, and is liked by a majority, is really art. And not all that looks like art, and is only liked by some minority of 50 people, is really art.

Great topic, that was my opinion (well, everything before "Great topic" was my opinion too)

a-n

Chip McDonald · June 30, 2001

Something that perfectly walks the line between "Perfectly predictable" and "Too eclectic".

Which are entirely subjective on both ends,which is why perhaps aiming for the center works best...

------------------

New and Improved Music Soon: http://www.mp3.com/chipmcdonald

Curve Dominant · June 30, 2001

notape posted:

Short simple answer: profundity

notape,

Perfect answer. Zen.

Profundity means depth. It's easy to identify any one aspect of a "hit" song. Creating a song that combines all of those aspects seemlessly into a single statement - that's art. You need kung fu to accomplish that. It takes years of practice, trial and error, failure, more practice, more experimentation, more failure...eventually you'll get it, if you're committed to success, and you learn to love the process.

curvedominant

D. Gauss · June 30, 2001

jeez the thread heading makes this a bit tough. to me there are plenty of "well written" songs. but then we are talking about craftsmanship vs. conveying emotion. bob dylan, john hiatt, elvis costello, cole porter, john & paul, merle haggard, carol king, etc. all these guys/girls can write "well written" songs in their sleep (and some have), but sometimes clumsy raw emotion wins over perfect meter and rhyme. i.e. is U2's "one" a well written song? in the strictest sense, probably not, but it's a damn good one (and i'm not a very big U2 fan)... i mean most of barry manilow's cheesy songs are "well written", hell, he wrote the macdonald's jingle, but i think many people would prefer the wonderfully trashy "louie louie" to "looks like we made it".... and how do you explain james brown? one chord, some grunts n hollers, a great groove, and yet they are classics and deservedly so....

in the end, as always, there are plenty of "well written songs" that were never hits and plenty of dreck that were huge sellers.

-d. gauss

Tedster · June 30, 2001

Originally posted by Steve LeBlanc:
Awwwlll, c'mon Ted...coffee is better black, no cream or sugar...shows how much you know. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif

Precisely! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Philip OKeefe · June 30, 2001

Good coffee should be very strong AND have a pinch of salt in it. No, I'm NOT joking.

As far as what makes a good song, there's a lot of technical things we could certainly discuss. It's probably easier to describe what makes a bad song. Meter errors are something I see a lot of, as well as lots of structure errors... Then again, there's plenty of "technically correct" songs I've heard over the years that have left me cold.

I can certainly agree with the post that says "emotion". A great song catches you and kicks you right in the gut. You get excited when you hear it. It produces an emotional response. At least MY favorite songs do this. I can see where there's songs in some genres that are less about emotion and more about being good for dancing or whatever. And that's valid too.

Some technical errors seem less bothersome than others for whatever reason, but I'd still suggest that songwriters learn the fundamentals of songcraft. Some people just seem to "know" this by instinct from listening to great songs for years or whatever, but many (most?) people lack a "natural" knack for it and seem to assume something along the lines of "hey, how hard can it be"? In some ways it's really not all that hard to write a song... OTOH, writing a great song isn't as easy as some people seem to believe. If it was that easy, we'd all be rich.

But writing a great song is only the first hurdle. I've heard many great songs over the years that have never gone anywhere because people lacked the contacts, organization and business savvy to get them placed and promoted so that they could make something of (and from) them. Part of the joy of writing is when you DO write something you feel good about - it's a rush unlike any other. And that's not something that requires mass acceptance and popularity. So go out and create something!

Phil O'Keefe

Sound Sanctuary Recording

Riverside CA

http://members.aol.com/ssanctuary/index.html

pokeefe777@msn.com

Master Zap · June 30, 2001

A good song... its when it's predictable but still contains surprises. When it's instantly catchy yet not boring in repeat listening.

With "Predictable", I mean, that it must follow some basic rule-set of style and harmony, so people wont be thrown totally off when attempting to follow it.

With "Surprise" I mean it should still contain some element you DIDNT expect the first time, so you can go "oh wow now THAT was cool". This could be anything from a displaced beat (I heard one song which was so cool coz the beat was rather straight rock 4/4 but at ONE PLACE in the song they moved the kickdrum one 1/8 note later!) to a strange chord (I love fake cadences http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif ) or a bridge that just takes you a-flyi'n

With "Catchy" I mean a repeating chorus-ish (or whatever) thingy you can start humming RIGHT away. (leans back on structure/predictability point)

With "not boring" I mean that the production, melody, heck whole package should be detailed enough and contain enough little "mini surprises" to keep one listening again and again. This can be just some extra noodling in 3 places on a guitar part, it can be small synth bleepo-fx here and there, or it can be little sighs of joy from the singer, or whatnot. It can be just how its sung, it can be ANYTHING, really.

Thats about it methinks. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif

/Z

strat0124 · June 30, 2001

It's called PFM.......

ian1642605905 · June 30, 2001

Yeah the emotion has to be there for a song to move people but what gets it there?Creative structure,dynamics and cool fills...

ian*

gae_layahoo.it · June 30, 2001

i totally agree with master zap!

my favourite song is called "there she goes"...a simple,catchy tune with

a cheery riff and little nuances in the arrangement so that you'll find

something new every time you listen to it.

a good song should be addictive.yeah.

Tedster · June 30, 2001

"YOU DID NOT COMPLETE ALL THE REQUIRED FORM FIELDS. YOUR POST IS TOAST"

*&%&$^$&(&(*&(^*$%#$@$!#@%$&^&*^()

1k · June 30, 2001

Originally posted by Tedster:
"YOU DID NOT COMPLETE ALL THE REQUIRED FORM FIELDS. YOUR POST IS TOAST"
*&%&$^$&(&(*&(^*$%#$?@$!#@%$&^&*^()

Tedster --

Just a few tips... If you turn on cookies in your browser, the site will remember your password, so you won't have that problem.

I highlight my whole post before posting and copy it *just in case* it needs to be posted again.

I feel your pain. I really do. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif

1k · July 1, 2001

I don't think I can pinpoint exactly what makes a "well-written" song other than there has to be an intangible synergy between the music, melody, and lyrics which makes the whole greater than the sum of its parts.

A song can be completely "correct" from a traditional "How To Write A Hit Song" book perspective and it might completely fail, as it might sound like the lyrics, melody, and music are three seperate elements... And even if all three elements work together inoffensively, if it's missing that "spark" where you couldn't imagine hearing one element without the others, then it's still not a "well-written" song to me.

aeon · July 1, 2001

Since "well-written" is a value defined by the contextual relationship between song and listener, I would (for myself) define a "well-written" song as one that:

Has enough resonance with me on a physical, emotional, logico-rational, intuitive and spiritual level that the pleasure cascade of my frontal cortex/limbic system is set into action, and the resulting dopamine release causes me to move my body, feel deeply, think about the meaning of the song, realize how it relates to other songs and my life, and potentially find a pathway to Kosmos and unity with all things.

Really...I mean that...the best songs always have that potential.

mojo_jojo · July 1, 2001

I think what makes a good song is the bridge.

Most songwriters seem to quit at the bridge; or worse, they go for a million-dollar chord to make the transition work. Pop-song writing, hired-guns and indie rockers alike- they fall into this trap. It bugs me.

jojo

Notape_dup1 · July 3, 2001

Originally posted by Curve Dominant:
notape posted:
notape,

Perfect answer. Zen.

Profundity means depth. It's easy to identify any one aspect of a "hit" song. Creating a song that combines all of those aspects seemlessly into a single statement - that's art. You need kung fu to accomplish that. It takes years of practice, trial and error, failure, more practice, more experimentation, more failure...eventually you'll get it, if you're committed to success, and you learn to love the process.

curvedominant

I think Tedster hit the nail right on the head with his reply. It's all subjective.

Let me refine my short and simple answer to one not so short and simple - Yes it takes years of practice writing a 'good' song. I'm going to take the 'teen pop' genre for example. Back Street Boys write good songs right? of course they do, how did they get as big as they are? There are poeple that absolutely love the BSBs because they claim they write 'good' songs. I happen to dispise the Back Street Boys, why? No depth in the music or the lyrics, to me it's all "Oooh girl, I love you blah blah f**king blah". That's just my opinion - love it or hate it.

Profundity does mean depth - depth of meaning or feeling. As in:

How does a song make you feel? does it make you feel happy? sad? pissed off? does it make you laugh? dance? puke? take a shit?

What does the song mean to you? does it remind you of someone or something that you have expirienced in the past?

To me, if a song can't make me feel good, bad or whatever and it doesn't mean anything to me - I find it difficult to find interest in the song.