How does Roni Size (and other D&B artists) get such tight drum tracks?

[Wiggum]

Hey all,

 

This topic was a toss-up between here and Dave Bryce's section, but it seems more like a recording / sequencing question than a keyboard question.

 

I recently started exploring other forms of music, and Drum & Bass has become one of my favorites. When I listen to Roni Size, I am blown away by the drum tracks. What are they using to get this sound?

 

I know MPC's are popular with the hip hop genre, but I struggle to believe that a 96 PPQ sequencer can produce these grooves. I also discount hard quantizing. I run Cubase VST 3.7 on a PC, and even with sample accurate timing, I can't get a similar effect.

 

Maybe it has something to do with the drum samples or the effects. Perhaps they are compressed for more punch, or perhaps there are some unique reverb settings I am missing.

 

Any thoughts are appreciated,

 

Wiggum

[mr. rob]

Funny Im listening to some Roni Size this moment and was struck by the same sentiment. I think mutch of that kind of music can be approximated by starting with a tight ass hiphop beat, and then speeding it up signifigantly. As for hardware sequencers, yamaha's have much greater resolution(446 ppq), the Rm1x Im fond of, and as well a few years ago they released the qy 700. wich has 32 tracks and midi channels as well as a quite large lcd screen.

 

i've never tried to copy his style of beats though, so, this may not be the right advice even.

[Curve Dominant]

Wiggum, welcome to ElectroLand!

 

I luv D&B, and Roni Size is one of the masters; although I have noticed some inconsistency in his work lately, still when he nails it he is formidable. "Switchblade" from "In The Mode," his latest, is fierce to the max. "New Forms" is another favorite CD of mine. My homegrrl Bahamadia appears on that.

 

Oh, gawd, where to start. Well, layered samples are a good place. Experiment with layering 2 or more kick sounds and stacking them. Then, experiment with varying relative volumes, tones, pitch, filters, etc. You will start to find lots of possibilities to the point of almost too many options. Go with your gut, find sounds that you like, and remember that the bassline will eventually come into play, so leave freaquency room for that, and other elements of your mix that will come into play. Also, the 2 different kick sounds do not always have to hit simoultaneously. Sometimes the softer of the two sounds can appear alone as a ghost beat. You can program an elaborate kick sequence with the softer of the two kicks, and then layer the louder one for accents, or vice-versa.

 

Repeat this exercise for the snare sounds.

 

Program highly syncopated beats, but always have at least one sound on a steady 1/2, 1/4, or 1/8 note to anchor the groove. It can be a 4-to-the-floor kick, or a highly-present 8th-note hat or tamborine, or a snare on 2 and 4. Again, lots of possibilities. D&B is like Jazz in that sense.

 

Compress for punch, yes, but stay away from reverb until you have your mix laid-out, and then only add reverb to fill in gaps, and sparingly. Many of my mixes have NO reverb on the drums at all, because the patterns are so busy and complex that reverb would turn them to mud.

 

Don't worry too much over what gear you use. Start with whatever you have laying around, and if you start to feel constrained at some point down the road, start looking into new tools. This music is more about technique and arrangement than what gear you use, and lots of D&B cats are using an incredibly varied range of gear to accomplish basically the same tasks. I'm currently using the Korg ElectribeS rhythm production sampler to construct my grooves. It's a sampler and a groovebox smooshed into one unit, which suits me nicely, approx. $475US. Bro's of mine use the Akai MPC2000 with smashing results, approx. $2000US. It's more elaborate and "pro" than the Korg, which is more "street." The Akai is better for a pro studio, but the Korg is better for gigs and whatnot, and it's faster and easier and more fun to use, but with much less memory capacity than the Akai. Get both if you can afford it. You can also program beats with a keyboard MIDI-synced to your favorite DAW software, maybe with a sampler or sound module stuck in between. Just hit the beats on the keyboard as you record on the DAW, quantize the hits, and take it from there.

 

I'll leave it for others to chime in, and add some thoughts later as they come to me. There's a lot to cover on this subject, and you won't get it overnight, but over time you'll be glad that you took the time to get into it because it is a wonderful artform, in my opinion.

 

It's nice to be talking about music again...

curvedominant

[Wiggum]

Bump...

[Curve Dominant]

Wiggum posts:

Bump...

 

Ya know, W, that's an excellent place to start, really. Just get the room really quiet, and press that kick pad and listen to that "Bump...Bump...Bump." Listen for the qualities you'd want in a phatt kick sound: attack, tone, sustain & decay...all of these add up to "booty." Ya wanna nice booty. If you're stacking two kick sounds, you'll be listening for some of those elements in one sound, and the rest in the other, and then program a 4-to-the-floor pattern for those two sounds, and listen, "Bump...Bump...Bump...Bump." Really take your time to make relative adjustments in the two sounds, getting just the right balance of attack and tone. Eventually you'll sculpt a nice tight, firm and round booty. It's all about the booty, baby. Nothing gets the mojo working like a smashingly fine booty.

 

curvedominant

[mr. rob]

I recently picked up a yamaha rm1x. I have found it a great tool for programming sequences, however, it doesnt sample. Luckily for me I have an emu esi 2000 to do that. the esi floats around ebay for like $350 or less used, and holds 128 megs of ram with 64 voices. The thing about DnB is that its all about the sampler. I think a GREAT sampler for that would be the yamaha ax000 series because they have the best filters, built in efx, and other cool stuff. Its like a sampler made for DnB basically. Also, the electribe does rock, on ebay they go for $300 maybe a bit more. The rm1x on ebay is $450 esque. After all we all need a little xoxoxo in our life dont we?

 

Personally Im working on getting some really frantic IDM type beats. As for sequencer chops, I think of squarepusher like on Big Loda or Music is Rotted/one note or Mu- Ziq as heard on "lunatic harness". Also Autechre's "lp5" will fuck your mind. Aphex Twins beats arent as busy as most jungle or glitch sounds, but I also admire him simply for the gracefulness involved. Theres some REEEALLY crazy stuff on the mille plateaux record label, like the clicks and cuts compilations. And when that stuff starts sounding tame pick up an Oval album.

 

And um, if your like me somebody who likes to just pick up an instrument and rip, while this may not be standard practice for Junglists, Yamaha makes some V-drums that go for around 1g. Ohh my god it wil feel so good when instead of pulling my hair out 1 note at a time I can just plug in the drum kit and rrrrip. he he..reverse engineering:-)

[Curve Dominant]

Yo Rob,

 

You are onto it with the V-Drums. I demo'd the new Roland joint and was like YEAAHHH BABY!!! SMASHING!!!

 

MIDI one of those babies to a DAW, set some loosly swinging quantizing, and GO.

 

GoMaster,

CurveDominant

[Anderton]

I think part of the tightness is psycho-acoustic. A lot of those sounds are pitched upward, so the decays are shorter and tighter.

[Curve Dominant]

I think part of the tightness is psycho-acoustic. A lot of those sounds are pitched upward, so the decays are shorter and tighter.

 

Craig,

 

Exactly!

 

With fast tempos, and busy syncopated matrices, shorter decay times facilitate a clean groove.

 

When stacking sounds, a high-pitch setting on one of the sounds will provide the "tight" aspect of the over-all effect.

[gae_layahoo.it]

maybe i'm talking non-sense,but after listening to the prodigy,

roni size and other d'n'b acts i sense that they use some "magic tricks"...it looks like (especially the prodigy) they chop off a little

section of the drum pattern at the end of every bar.it's like the

beat isn't a 4/4,but rather a "3.9/4"...

and some of the cymbals and the snare ghost notes patterns aren't sequenced in a straight 4/4 fashion

(ON the beat),rather they come a millisecond earlier

or later than the main beat.basically,they're being shuffled.

shuffling the ghost notes is a trick used by many jazz drummers who want

to add a "jumpy" feeling to the rythm and it's also used on much

techno music.

[ketone]

We use samples from real drum kits, no wild pitch shifting goes on here as someone suggested. The second snare in a bar is often pitch shifted a few cents or eq'd slightly differently. Many of the drum sounds are layered with other drum sounds, some taken fromhip hop loops. We dont stretch (time or pitch) hip hop loops, just cut out individual drum sounds out of these loops in Pro Tools and sequence up our own breaks.

 

Eq is often applied to a heavy degree, resampled eq'd then compressed a bit (set attack time so first few ms goes thru comp uncompressed to give the attack some krack) desk or outboard eq to color the sound favorably works well.

 

Hi-pass filtering is the key to good separation and tightness of drum sounds. Buss the drum sounds an add a bit more compression/eq. Im not saying go crazy with compression at these various stages, its only small amounts , u still want dynamics not a squashed mess.

 

Sequencing is done with spewbase on the Atari-no Mac/PC can get close to it timming wise. Hardware sequencers are another story but i dont know anyone doin D n B using these. Some guys are still using the Atari/Cubase system but many have migrated to the Mac/cubase and Pro Tools for sample editing. Can't say i know anyone personally using windows PC's. The Akai MPC 3000 has an amazing sound, and great kits......fire up the EMU and go to work. I wouldnt use the sequencer in the MPC if there is a computer nearby.

 

Remember the valve-make it work hard.

 

ketone

 

This message has been edited by ketone on 07-02-2001 at 03:24 PM

[Wiggum]

Very interesting stuff...

 

Ketone: You mentioned "the valve". Does this have anything to do with pumping the faders? Someone mentioned this in another thread, but I can't envision what they are talking about (or how it would sound).

 

I have been experimenting with layered drums, as well as pulling beats ahead and shuffling them back, and the results have improved. I've got a long way to go, but I'm encouraged.

 

Thanks again guys,

 

Wiggum

[Curve Dominant]

Brits call vacuum tubes "valves," is this what you meant, ketone?

 

Way to go, Wiggam. You're moving forward, and that's what counts.

 

Let me see if I can get DJ Lorne to register here and chime in on this subject...

 

Eric Vincent

Curve Dominant Sound&Vision

Philadelphia USA

[pja12]

As a possibly interesting sidenote, it's also possible to recreate the sound of d n' b with a live drummer. Last time i saw Mr. Size (in Amsterdam), he had a live drummer that occasionally played along with the beats. Every once in a while, the drummer kicked out his own unassisted breaks.

 

There's also a live-instrument band out of Baltimore called Big in Japan that plays drum and bass with a drummer, bassist, and guitar with lots of effects. The drummer is incredible, of course, and the band is good enough to frequently play raves and clubs in the area alongside good DJs.

[Submersible]

I think part of the tightness is psycho-acoustic. A lot of those sounds are pitched upward, so the decays are shorter and tighter.

 

Yeah, that's a pretty common effect that probably started out life as a byproduct of increasing tempo by changing the sample rate. If you take a looped break that's about 100 BPM and you crank it up to 140-160 without preserving the pitch, it sounds a lot like some early D&B tracks. I like to go back and layer another kick drum at normal pitch when using this technique.

 

Of course, the real trick is to get enough variation and syncopation in the loop to keep from boring the listener to tears. And that take a LOT of work.

 

These are just my observations, I've yet to perfect my D&B technique. I'm happy to see those with more experience chiming in!

[ketone]

Wiggum & Curve

 

No need to pump or ride faders for beats.

 

Sorry for terminology used, Valve (tube) proccessing is used alot is what i meant. Tube EQ/Compressors on kiks/snares sound great- and basses http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif

 

Most of the little fills you hear between the first snare and the second kik are usually the same snare used but much lower in level with another percussive sound, (hat,shaker,rim etc). When i was talking about layering, i also meant to say it is sometimes a great effect to use another kool drum loop from a record, hipass at about 2-4k maybe higher so you only hear the top end (the kik should be barely audible). Layer this with your sequenced break and will give u a nice percussion fill (roll). If it works use 2 loops for a percussive layer, eq them individually for niceness.

 

If using sampled beats they wont require compressing, chances are they have already been over proccessed-Beats need dynamics to cut while a tight bass underneath just rolls. If the kik's n snares you have are over compressed you can select a few ms of the attack an boost it by 3db-ProTools is great for this-best visual waveform editing for this stuff. Your EMU or Kurzweil sampler is ok but a bit fiddly.

 

BTW don't be afraid to redline your analog desk either resample, eq bit of verb and hi-pass filter, filter, filter http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif

 

Ketone

[Gregg Seibert]

There is a little trick I read somewhere (wish I could take credit!). Take a second loop at the same tempo and layer it with the first, except start the second loop 2 1/2 beats later. This can give a good starting point for some wild syncopation. Hope this inspires some experimentation.

[Curve Dominant]

WOW! GREAT THREAD! There's a lot I want to respond to...

 

As a possibly interesting sidenote, it's also possible to recreate the sound of d n' b with a live drummer. Last time i saw Mr. Size (in Amsterdam), he had a live drummer that occasionally played along with the beats. Every once in a while, the drummer kicked out his own unassisted breaks.

 

There's a drummer I'm in with here in Philly who can do this, his name's Pete Gaudioso, and we did some D&B two weeks ago at a club called Fergies Pub. He's a jazz drummer by training, which is essential in my opinion. He played some nice swift breakbeats, mostly with the hat and a rimshot and the kick, and I played the half-time basslines while my younger brother Kurt played electro-guitar. It was really trippy, and the audience seemed fascinated with hearing that music live that they previously only heard in recordings. As the bassist, I found that you have to swing just slightly yet consistently ahead of the beat in order to propell the groove. It's almost like playing bebop, but more minimalistic.

 

it is sometimes a great effect to use another kool drum loop from a record, hipass at about 2-4k maybe higher so you only hear the top end (the kik should be barely audible). Layer this with your sequenced break and will give u a nice percussion fill (roll). If it works use 2 loops for a percussive layer, eq them individually for niceness.

 

This is fantastic information that I'm really seriously grateful for. I have used this technique, but with varying results. Now I realize where I've failed: it's because I didn't use a sufficiently aggressive highpass filter, and so the over-all groove sounded "mucky." Now I know: filter those lows OUT, way out, of that overlay. Thanks for that tip, Ketone.

 

There is a little trick I read somewhere (wish I could take credit!). Take a second loop at the same tempo and layer it with the first, except start the second loop 2 1/2 beats later. This can give a good starting point for some wild syncopation. Hope this inspires some experimentation.

 

The first time I heard this done where I really NOTICED it and realized that that's what they were doing, was on the first Us3 recording, on a track called "Knowledge Of Self." It's a great track and still one of my all time favorites, and that staggered layer technique is indeed a major reason why. I haven't tried it yet! It's on my list now of beats to bang - thanks, GSeibert.

 

Eric Vincent

Curve Dominant Sound&Vision

www.mp3.com/TransluxTheater

[Anderton]

This is indeed an interesting thread, I too like the high-pass idea for layered loops. A variation on that theme is to use an envelope-followed filter, and set the controls so it's sweeping more of the high range. A good place to get a free envelope-followed filter is http://www.mda-vst.com.

 

I'm not a d&B fanatic but like some of it and incorporate a few of the concepts into my own music. Listening to some of jazz drummers is inspirational. Actually, the way Mitch Mitchell approached snare and toms when playing with Hendrix reminds me a lot of d&b in a way...those rapid-fire drum fills and all.

[Curve Dominant]

the way Mitch Mitchell approached snare and toms when playing with Hendrix reminds me a lot of d&b in a way...those rapid-fire drum fills and all.

 

TOTALLY! I always thought Mitch Mitchell was one of the most under-rated drummers ever (being in Jimi's shadow didn't exactly help in that regard). I think that's where I got my luv of syncopated grooves: from listening to those early Hendrix records when I was a pup. You KNEW that he was a jazz drummer. Same with that first Black Sabbath record - that was one of the early acid jazz recordings that just sent me loopy. When hard rock/metal lost the jazz influence, I lost interest.

 

Eric Vincent

Curve Dominant Sound&Vision

Philadelphia USA