Has the Scene Stalled?

[Anderton]

Is it just me, or has the scene kind of stalled? The "MP3 revolution" may have levelled the playing field, but we're having a hard time finding the playing field. We still don't have a major breakthrough act that came to us courtesy of the web, unless you want to count Fisher...and one act isn't much to show for all the hoopla about music on the web.

 

Napster keeps slipping, while record companies sit around trying to figure out how to make the online thing work for them. Electronica, although it's starting to become more mainstream, is (with a few exceptions) also starting to become just as formulaic as the music it hoped to replace.

 

The internet has kind of stalled, as the broadband rollout is taking much longer than was hoped. Most homes are still on dial-up, and lucky to get 40K out of a 56K connection. Most of the sites that were rich media only have folded.

 

Manufactured bands are still considered the way to go by the major labels, who are so busy consolidating that smaller labels are finding it difficult to provide an alternate voice. Except for a few college radio stations, radio's power has reached rock bottom in terms of introducting new acts.

 

Dance clubs are being closed due to the misguided efforts of public officials who think that closing them will solve The Drug Problem, and concert prices keep heading up, making it more and more likely that only boomers with disposable income will see the major tours. I'm not seeing a lot of breakthroughs in technology either, except for soft synths.

 

I'm not trying to be depressing here, it just seems that the culture is kind of stalled and running in place. Anyone agree? Of course, the good news is that at some point, something new and exciting will happen...I'm just not sure when.

[-]

Originally posted by Anderton:

Except for a few college radio stations, radio's power has reached rock bottom in terms of introducting new acts.

 

I'm in agreement with everything you said above, but I don't look at it as necessarily a bad thing (from an artistic point of view, that is. From a financial point of view... Well, I'm glad I don't make a living from music anymore).

 

It's really hard for me to concisely describe this thought, but let me try... Sometimes, there are certain things I might take for granted as being "good". For example, at one point in my life, I thought the radio was "good". Even MTV was "good" for a little while.

 

Time has moved on, radio has changed, my tastes have changed, and I don't see radio that way anymore. I could become sentimental over the way radio used to be (or the way I perceived it to be). I could try to force myself to *like* Brittney, the manufactured angst bands, gangsta crap, and whatever other lowest-common-denominator stuff the major labels would like to push down our throats...

 

The solution for me is to "let go" of whatever I used to think was "good" and find something new where I can get excited about things. The internet is still like that for me. These forums are like that.

 

I've been fortunate enough to listen to a lot of great new music this year which probably hasn't gotten much airplay, but that's OK... Great music is still being made by people who care, and that matters to me more than if it's the same thing my neighbor listens to.

 

 

 

 

This message has been edited by popmusic on 06-26-2001 at 11:34 AM

[plus3dbnetzero.net]

Well, I am one who has listened to ALOT of MP3's from many many unknown artists.

 

Possibly 2% of them were worthy of even major label "consideration". Most of them sucked, even Fisher was just mediocre songwriting.

 

Is there talent out there? Does cream rise to the top? Is a team of engineers and producers needed to "prop" up the pretty faces and nice voices?

 

Perhaps thats why very few have lasting success and make an impact. Is there a scene? Will a great talent rise from the ashes to lift rock and roll out of the swamp?

 

Maybe the question to ask should be: When was the last time you heard something new that knocked you on your ass?

[RecreationalThinker]

There does seem to be a lack of "newness" these days. Historically, society seems to reach periodic stagnant times, then a new burst of activity occurs. It makes me wonder what that next revolution will be like?

 

Let's see...large labels are getting larger, radio is becoming homogenized, Big name acts are getting too expensive to see live, or are not worth seeing. On the other hand, computer processing speed is increasing rapidly while the cost is plummeting, home demo studios are more capable than ever before, rapid or real-time interaction with like-minds is possible in forums or chat, anyone around the world able to record an mp3 can be heard in *some* forum...hmmm.

 

I think worldwide collaboration on original material could be the next new wave. Imagine being able to find a person or persons who match or compliment your musical style, trade ideas, create together regardless of physical location. Broadcast the work on a site dedicated to such endeavors. Truly personal music to create and share with a community of like minds.

 

You have mentioned the Rocket Network, Craig. I don't know anything about it, but if it is what I *think* it is, then that could be the beginning. Until broadband is more accessible, there will have to be some intermediary storage site for files. Rights must be protected, but I can see people doing this just for the love of the music.

 

I know it sounds Pollyanna-ish and impractical, but it's just a scenario.

 

------------------

What's on, your mind?

[Tedster]

Craigster said...

 

>>>We still don't have a major breakthrough act that's come to us courtesy of the web

 

Popmusic said...

 

>>>I've been fortunate enough to listen to a lot of great new music this year which probably hasn't gotten much airplay, but that's OK... Great music is still being made by people who care, and that matters to me more than if it's the same thing my neighbor listens to.

 

That's the bottom line. Yep, we don't have a major breakthrough act, but great music is being made by people who care. And that, to me, is what the next wave is all about. Not what the corporations will spoon feed us, but what we discover for ourselves.

 

Picture two guys (or girls) talking:

 

"Hey, have you heard the new Narvel Hornblitz CD?"

 

"Who the heck is Narvel Hornblitz?"

 

"Some guy from Delaware"

 

"Never heard of him"

 

"Well here, have a listen"

 

(Passes headphones)

 

"DUUUDE, he ROCKS!!!...have you heard Wilhelmina Floog?"

 

"Who?"

 

etc. etc. etc.

 

Total grassroots thing.

 

To quote (or perhaps paraphrase) Gil Scott Heron...The revolution will not be televised...

[-]

Originally posted by Tedster:

"Hey, have you heard the new Narvel Hornblitz CD?"

 

Oh, come on -- everybody knows who Narvel Hornblitz is!!! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

[Guest]

Stasis has set in.

 

There are no more new musical developments and there will be no more musical epochs.

 

The current musical situation was predicted in Leonard Myer's prophetic book, Music, Art and Ideas, written in 1965.

 

Joe

[alphajerk]

i agree when you discuss it on a general level. fisher, give me a break... like we need another chick singing over DnB. just give me Hope Sandoval over something spacy instead.

 

labels are still as clueless as ever. the last bastions of free radio have now fallen, even college radio isnt what it used to be. the only "drug problem" that we have is the militant enforcement of laws that violate our human rights.

 

BUT, you have internet radio now which offers just about anything you want and then some. didnt technology finally break the human genome code? the DAW revolution is really kicking in as the software becomes more advanced it passed analog some time ago. and you can order any drug you want from mexico over the internet.

 

the internet has afforded me the opportunity to get in touch now with several people who share the same interests, some that were only one degree of seperation anyways but the internet removed that, some that were probably 6 degrees now none. i have found some incredible music on the internet as well. stuff far better than any commercially released music. whole communities of people with similar interests. a huge network.

 

im not sure if something new and exciting will happen for the whole of humanity but something new and exciting happens for me on quite a regular basis. i just dont care about the mass LCD, they can take their manufactured crap and shove it up their collective asses for all i care.

 

i think the hype is now gone which is a good thing, now we can get back to reality for a change. i think we were inundated with so much so quickly we are now just starting to get a handle on it in order to move "foward". maybe think of it as the lull before the storm.

[Uh Clem]

right on Pop...

 

I go between college radio, the digital cable Jazz Station (which is quite good), and the WEB.

 

I go see good bands in local clubs who care more about their music than bit rates and pop stars and record companies. Most of these guys and gals would yawn at more that 15 seconds of Napster talk.

 

I'm working with some fun bands in my studio who don't have big ego things happening - just seeking a good tune and a good sound.

 

I've heard some of the most exciting music in my life in the past 10 yrs - some of it hundreds of years old, some 10 of years, and some very recent.

 

For me, the scene is expanding.

 

You can't expect to get reality or much satisfacction out of mass media - radio, TV, magazines, even the WEB - they are all the same - LCD implementations aimed at lazy brains.

 

It comes down to that glass half full or half empty thing.

 

Sure my computer can't do everything I wish it could, but it makes that Cyber system I worked on in college look like a joke. Step back and look at the big picture - some of it sucks, but some of it is pretty cool.

 

 

"They said we'd have flying cars! Where are the flying cars?"

[Guest]

The bad news is that there won't be anything new and exciting.

 

Western culture is a culture of personality, not styles. While there have been stylistic epochs in the past, those days are gone forever. What will be exciting, as has been in the recent past is the emergence of interesting personalities for which is an expression of themselves and not a transcendent activity.

 

Music has really run its course in developments and its evolution is over. No new music styles will develop and music will be recognized as essentially a vehicle of personality. Musics value won't be intrinsic but valuable to music.

 

Joe

[-]

Originally posted by Anderton:

I'm not seeing a lot of breakthroughs in technology either, except for soft synths.

 

Yeah -- it was fun being a keyboard player in the '80s and watching the whole MIDI thing develop in front of your eyes... And I remember the first time I got my hands on Sound Designer II on one of those little upright Macs with the black and white screen... Sigh... http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/frown.gif

 

But now, what frontier is left to conquer? (Don't say 192kHz, *please*!!!) You can now have more music recording power on your PC than high end studios had 15 years ago for maybe 1/10 the cost. All that's needed is what was always needed: Good songs, good performances, good instruments, good mics, good acoustics, and an engineer/producer who knows what they're doing.

 

I think our music recording tools -- even though they will get faster, cheaper, and more powerful -- are at a standstill, kind of like how MIDI has been for the past 10 years.

 

Not until someone figures out a way for the computer to meaningfully collaborate with a writer (like helping me finish the lyrics, arrange, perform, record, and mix the thing) will there be another breakthrough, and that's still something humans will always be better at.

 

 

 

 

This message has been edited by popmusic on 06-26-2001 at 02:30 PM

[strat0124]

Well I'm speaking from middle America.....those with limited resources, and we are being tight fisted these days. I think we all learned from the PC industry, how the next new thing comes along and everyone wants the new tech.....wasting lots of money in the process. I think folks are just waiting to see what solidifies and shows signs of longevity. We don't want to go the route of DCC (great format by the way....damn shame). I see that in the home recording area alot. If you have plenty of capital and no kids to send through college, yeah, it's relatively easy to upgrade soon as it hits the market. But I imagine the have nots are more prevelant in the music industry than the haves. So there you have it.

[Tinen]

Demography is destiny. The music scene and industry are historically the most vibrant when a large population of teenagers are in the society. The echo to the baby boom is coming--there are projections of huge growth in the 13-21 age group in the next decade. So, about 2005 we'll see something new and exciting. Meanwhile, it feels like 1958. All of us old guys should be trying to find the Beatles among those kids...now it's our turn to be George Martin or Sam Philips. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif

 

Historians will probably look at the 1980-2000 decades as musically uninteresting, but technologically forming the digital foundation of audio for centuries later. 24-bit is as good as it needs to get for recording, and we're there. There won't be any breakthroughs as great as when we went from Dolby cassettes to ADATs.

 

On the other hand, speakers are still primitive coils of wire pushing a paper or plastic dome. By an order of magnitude, they are the single biggest source of distortion and inefficiency in the audio chain. Mixing consoles (whether real or virtual) are stuck with a dumb, complicated interface. Why does "to automate" mean "to make more complicated" when it comes to mixers? Someone clever will probably improve that in the next ten years, I hope.

 

Oh, and there's still no definitive, long-lasting keyboard in the tradition of the 88-key grand piano or Hammond B-3.

 

--DT

[Botch.]

Ever hear Wendy Carlos' album "Beauty and the Beast"? None of the compositions on the album are in 12-tone equal temperment, they're all done on alternative scales. The thing sounded out of tune the first couple of spins, but if you listen to it enough, songs on the radio start sounding out of tune! Western music has taken the 12-tone equal temperment system and rung it out, yet there's still new chords/patterns coming out even today; it makes me wonder just how much more exploring we could do, with different systems like 19-tone equal temperment, Gamelan scales, etc.

 

Of course, the hard part about a venture like this is getting an audience, it truly takes some "work" to be able to listen to these different systems and start to appreciate them. With the Internet, its now possible to at least get this stuff "out there". Perhaps our Western ears can not be changed, but it'd be fascinating to find out...

[Lee Flier]

I don't know if the scene has "stalled" so much as that nobody knows quite what to do with it. We're all a bunch of deer in the headlights - artists, engineers, studio owners, record labels, dot-commers, pretty much everybody. There are so many choices, so many ways to go about working, and the old industry model is bloated and choking but nobody quite knows how to make a new one work or what it would look like.

 

All of that has taken a certain amount of energy away from pure musical creativity. But as others have pointed out, there is still a lot of great music being made, it just isn't hyped to the degree that we are used to. Which of course means the artists can't make much money from it, which makes it hard for them to make a living.

 

I am hoping that a new breed of music biz person eventually springs up in the wake of all this. Someone who does the equivalent of what the labels have traditionally done, only on a slightly smaller scale, and on an independent basis. What is lacking in the Internet hoopla is real, good old-fashioned marketing. That takes some bucks. And the major label model isn't working for the vast majority of talented artists who are out there.

 

I also agree that it would help if an artist rose up out of all this who truly captivated everyone's attention, whether it happened on a grassroots level or not.

 

Either way, I see things as being kinda stagnant right now but I am also excited underneath it all, because I feel we are just taking time to prepare for something really great.

 

--Lee

[-]

Originally posted by botch@netutah.net:

Ever hear Wendy Carlos' album "Beauty and the Beast"? None of the compositions on the album are in 12-tone equal temperment,

 

That is a terrific album... It needs a little bit of Auto Tune to make it really shine, though.

 

 

http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

[Hippie]

I think some of the problems with pop music these days are caused from the music of say, 15-20 years ago. Where as a lot of the "classic" rock bands of the 60's & 70's were influenced by the music at the tail end of the jazz era & early rock & roll, newer music bands were influenced by the Thompson Twins, Poison, Madonna, synth pop bands, etc. (all crap)

 

I think another problem is with the way music teachers are training their students. Rather than giving their students a solid foundation in music theory, scales, progressions, etc., they often will just teach "little Johnny" how to play (or should I say, "memorize") the latest Green Day hit, without teaching them why it sounds the way it does, or even knowing what it is they are playing. (The only way to insure the students coming back for another lesson, is to give them what they want, now!) -The quality of musicians are on the decline, and it shows in pop radio. IMO

 

-Hippie

[F7sound -]

I don't think things have stalled. Now the econonmy does suck, but that will pass. I guess what's happening is that nothing seems to be "rising above the noise". There may not be that one HUGE thing that will slingshot the industry forward, but I think there are tons of moderate things that are moving forward at a decent clip.

 

 

Michael Oster

F7 Sound and Vision

http://www.f7sound.com

[miroslav]

I just think we can't see the forest for the trees

 

Tooooo much good new music, tooooo much bad new musictoo much music!?

Going back 10-15 years and furtherthere were less "trees" out there, so you could easily identify a good, solid hunk o' wood.

 

These days, new "stars" are born every minutethanks to studio in-a-box technology. Who CAN digest ALL this NEW musicand in what time frame? I think in about 10-20 years, we'll look back and be able to identify the real movers and shakers of these last 10-15 years. There is plenty of good music out thereif I can just somehow filter out all the other stuffhmmm

 

Stop waiting for the NEXT BIG THINGwhat ever it is, it will probably be only as big as PEPSI wants it to beit won't have much to do with anything else.

 

I am amazed at the way many current concerts/live shows have gone the way of the National Football Leaguejust a lot of glitz and glamYAWNYAWN. It's now ALL about marketing.

Oh yeah, a few of the them actually sound and play good too, but let's not make a big issue out of that nowlike who really cares these days anywaywe are all into the MP3 stuffHA!

[Philip OKeefe]

Originally posted by popmusic:

Oh, come on -- everybody knows who Narvel Hornblitz is!!! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

 

 

Yeah... he ROCKS! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gifhttp://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

 

Phil O'Keefe

Sound Sanctuary Recording

Riverside CA

http://members.aol.com/ssanctuary/index.html

pokeefe777@msn.com

[Alndln]

The record industry likes the fact that things have stalled,this way they can keep their product in stores and off the net(piracy)as much as possible.As far as creativity being stalled they(industry)have always thrived in a non creative environment as well.It's up to the artists to force their hand.

[Lee Flier]

Originally posted by Hippie:

I think some of the problems with pop music these days are caused from the music of say, 15-20 years ago. Where as a lot of the "classic" rock bands of the 60's & 70's were influenced by the music at the tail end of the jazz era & early rock & roll, newer music bands were influenced by the Thompson Twins, Poison, Madonna, synth pop bands, etc. (all crap)

 

I think that's not quite fair. There WERE a lot of good bands in the 80's that had a profound effect on musicians that followed. They weren't necessarily on top 40 radio (except for maybe REM and the Police), but geez, Nick Lowe, Elvis Costello, the Replacements, Husker Du, XTC, Soul Asylum, X... I could go on... there was plenty of good pop, power pop, postpunk, whatever you wanna call it. A lot of the young musicians in the great local bands that I go to see here in Atlanta were influenced by these bands. And they do go back and listen to the older stuff, too.

 

And let's not forget that in the 60's and 70's there was also plenty of garbage on top 40 radio.

 

As for the general lack of quality in musicianship, I don't think that's so much the quality of teaching as it is 1) kids' lack of attention span which is getting shorter these days, and 2) the fact that you don't really NEED to be a musician these days, you can just sample and loop stuff and autotune it and think you're badass. You really have to be motivated to work at it in order to become a good musician.

 

The upside of that is that it seems those kids who DO stick it out nowadays, are GREAT, because they obviously have a unique personality to begin with. I think we will see a renaissance of good players, though, based on some of the younger folks I've seen.

 

--Lee

[Guest]

yeah!

what Lee said!

i'm with that.

 

I am hoping that a new breed of music biz person eventually springs up in the wake of all this.

 

you bet, where are the "fair witness" producers? The John Hammond types, the Jerry Wexlers? These were corporate producers too, but they took their artists somewhere.

 

As for the general lack of quality in musicianship...

 

now somebody, tell me please, what is going on here? When I go to see a movie, it will likely be directed by somebody just out of film school. And their chops are unbelieveable. What is not working in music instruction?

 

probably the inability to make a living at it.

 

This message has been edited by spokenWard@netscape.net on 06-26-2001 at 05:18 PM

[fet]

I believe that the "next big thing", like most every unifying cultural phenomenon, will come from a totally unexpected direction. We will need to remove our attention from our computer screens in order to see it coming.

 

This and similar BBs, great as they are, still have a certain "talking to ourselves" or "preaching to the choir" quality. We are all avid net-surfers, so we tend to think that most other humans are this way too. This is a natural human tendency. If nothing much new is happening in our peer group, we think that nothing much new is happening at all.

 

In fact, there is a vast amount of life, and art, and cultural movement, that transpires way off our net-centric, techno-obsessed radar. It is from this direction that new things will happen, IMNSHO.

 

So now let's all turn our computers off.

[dansouth]

Originally posted by jtegan@tiac.net:

Stasis has set in.

 

There are no more new musical developments and there will be no more musical epochs.

 

The current musical situation was predicted in Leonard Myer's prophetic book, Music, Art and Ideas, written in 1965.

 

Joe

 

This reminds me of the quote by the head of the U.S. Patent Office in the 1890's who suggested that there would be no more new inventions, because "everything that CAN be invented, HAS been invented." Guess he was a little premature.

[dansouth]

Originally posted by Anderton:

We still don't have a major breakthrough act that came to us courtesy of the web

 

Is that what the web is for, to bring us the next Michael Jackson? If so, please allow me to cancel my ISP service immediately.

 

If a musician can use the web to reach 500 of 5,000 or 50 people who have not heard their music previously, and if a million musicians can all do this same thing, then I think that the web has provided an enormous service. Hopefully, the internet savvy kids of today will grow up valuing the acts that they discover themselves online rather than the crap that record companies tell them that they should like.

 

We "old timers" need to shift our paradigm as to what constitutes a "breakthrough." We're apparently still stuck in a Columbia Record Club mentality.

[Steve LeBlanc]

Music has really run its course in developments and its evolution is over. No new music styles will develop and music will be recognized as essentially a vehicle of personality. Musics value won't be intrinsic but valuable to music.

 

Just want to make sure we all realize this is a ridiculous statement...please tell me I'm not the only person here who thinks so.

 

The internet won't break anyone not the way it is now.

 

Broadband IS going to take off in a big way but it's doubtful people will be viewing it through computer screens. Wireless, Cable Interactive TV, etc. is what will take over, soon, the money people have been gearing up for this...it's being tested in Europe.

 

When average Joe can be driving in his car and choose any of a million songs to listen to through his wireless connected car stereo in 44k, then things will get exciting.

 

Will my music (or yours) get a fair opportunity to be heard by Joe? Well not if the big 5 can help it but I suppose anything's possible.

[D. Gauss]

geez, talk about stalled, i haven't been able to find any new 8-track tapes for my hopped-up, yellow, ford pinto in years....keep playing "cat scratch fever".....

 

-d. gauss

[Hippie]

Lee,

You are correct, there definately was some great music from the 80's. I happen to own alot of the "Stiff Records" stuff -Rockpile, Elvis Costello, The The, etc. But who ever heard this stuff on the radio? I only heard these artists through offbeat Canadian radio stations that were so weak, I had to stay up until 2:00 in the morning to get any reception.

-Hippie

[Electrok]

As far as rock is concerned let's look at the ones who actually changed the course of rock and what they have in common. Elvis, Beatles, Hendrix, Zepplin, Ramones, Nirvana. there are others but all of these bands crafted a new sound and were fresh when they came out. the Ramones didn't set the charts on fire but they certainly started the wave of punk rock which let eventually to Nirvana. The similarity is all of these were live performers. They all stumbled on a new sound, they didn't sit at a desk or computer and say what is the next big thing.

I personally think the next big thing will be the rebellion against Pro Tools and digital perfection. The pendulum always swings, that is one reoccurring historic event you can count on. At this moment it's in the over sampled, over quantized, over digitized, over pristine, over edited, over engineered, under performed, over analyzed, and under unique end of the spectrum.

Electrok