D. Gauss Posted June 22, 2001 Share Posted June 22, 2001 ok, now everyone can record/edit/mix on a workstation. problem is, are the senses confused? before, you had no choice but to rely upon your ears. now of course you can see a waveform and what its doing as well as hear it. do you think that the eyes get in the way of the ears? do you make decisions based upon what you see rather than what you hear? i know i've done it and i'm not happy about it..... with protools, etc, seems like we spend more time "looking" at the music rather than listening to it. my poor analogy is this: if you have a great girlfriend/boyfriend who is great in bed, isn't it better to enjoy it on face value rather than know that she/he learned all that stuff on the street as a prostitute? any thoughts? -d. gauss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KenElevenShadows Posted June 22, 2001 Share Posted June 22, 2001 For editing, I really like the ability to visualize the waveforms. The final judgment is made with my ears, but the waveforms help me to zero in on the specific areas that I want to edit. I used to edit samples on my DSS-1, which had no waveform display at all. Sure, I could make all my loops, edits, etc. sound good, but with a large computer display, it makes it much easier, much faster. But the bottom line is always how good it sounds. ------------------ Ken/Eleven Shadows/d i t h er/Nectar http://www.elevenshadows.com 4 music, travel, more! http://www.cdbaby.com/elevenshadows Ken Lee Photography - photos and books Eleven Shadows ambient music The Mercury Seven-cool spacey music Linktree to various sites Instagram Nightaxians Video Podcast Eleven Shadows website Ken Lee Photography Pinterest Page Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S_Gould Posted June 22, 2001 Share Posted June 22, 2001 I trust my ears - I'm actually HEARING what the sound is doing. Any visuals from DAWs oscilloscopes, etc. are only an approximation of some aspect of the audio. The eyes aren't wired to the sections of my brain that process audio. I'm sure that some (few) engineers are so used to using certain graphic representaions of sound that their brains have formed new pathways - they could probably edit with the monitors off. But I still think the ears have to take precedence. My 2¢ Scott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Posted June 22, 2001 Share Posted June 22, 2001 I always sort out what needs to be done with my ears, but waveform displays make finding the part and manipulating it way easier. I think you can get caught up in doing a process over and over and start to rely on your eyes too much (like lowering the volume of breath noise when you overcompressed going in). But your ears will tell you when you've gone too far. Hey, that's what 'undo' is for. -David http://www.garageband.com/artist/MichaelangelosMuse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
- Posted June 22, 2001 Share Posted June 22, 2001 I remember years ago being in a studio with another engineer teaching me basic recording techniques and I was comparing the levels of two channels with the meters on the console. The engineer yelled at me and said to use my ears first, eyes second. I learned my lesson. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif There's always been a visual distraction with recording. We had meters before... Now we have meters, waveforms, and GUIs. I'm sure some people get distracted by the visual element, but in the end it comes down to our ears. For example, I know of a freeware VST plugin which *looks* great... But it sounds really bad. I was really disappointed when I tried it out, as the screenshots looked *terrific*. However, I still see people raving about it on the net... Amazing how much "better" a nice GUI "sounds"... http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif This message has been edited by popmusic on 06-22-2001 at 09:32 AM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiny G Posted June 22, 2001 Share Posted June 22, 2001 How was that take? I don't know, let's take a LOOK at it. (Didn't we used to say LISTEN?) Tiny G Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anderton Posted June 22, 2001 Share Posted June 22, 2001 I've been a lot more careful about this since I found myself unconsciously "rounding off" settings...for example, if a volume fader was at 3.9, I'd push it up to 4.0. Ooops! Now I often close my eyes when making adjustments so I'm not influenced by what I'm seeing. Where the visuals REALLY come through is troubleshooting. I was just doing a tune where the drums got significantly louder than I wanted in one section. Checked the faders, etc etc...turned out I had accidentally copied that part and placed it on top of itself, thus boosting the volume. If this had been multitrack tape and I had accidentally put another channel in record so that the drums had been recorded to two tracks instead of one, it probably would have taken me FAR longer to find the problem. Craig Anderton Educational site: http://www.craiganderton.org Music: http://www.youtube.com/thecraiganderton Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/craig_anderton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Flier Posted June 22, 2001 Share Posted June 22, 2001 Yeah, I'm with Craig. The main thing I use visuals for is if I hear something wrong that I need to troubleshoot. And yes it does help you zoom in on the appropriate places for editing. Otherwise I ALWAYS trust my ears. Some people mix while constantly looking at waveforms and frequency analyzers... that really messes me up! If I use them at all it's at the beginning and end of a mix just to see if I have any glaring transients and things like that. --Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KenElevenShadows Posted June 22, 2001 Share Posted June 22, 2001 >> I'm sure that some (few) engineers are so used to using certain graphic representaions of sound that their brains have formed new pathways - they could probably edit with the monitors off. >> Yipes! A whole new breed of X-Men!! >>But I still think the ears have to take precedence. Absolutely. It's how it sounds that matters!!! Any visuals are simply an aid. I can edit without seeing waveforms; I can't edit by only seeing waveforms (er, well i could, but it wouldn't sound very good, although I'd nail all the zero crossings! ). ------------------ Ken/Eleven Shadows/d i t h er/Nectar http://www.elevenshadows.com 4 music, travel, more! http://www.cdbaby.com/elevenshadows Ken Lee Photography - photos and books Eleven Shadows ambient music The Mercury Seven-cool spacey music Linktree to various sites Instagram Nightaxians Video Podcast Eleven Shadows website Ken Lee Photography Pinterest Page Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kris Posted June 22, 2001 Share Posted June 22, 2001 I occasionally run live sound for a few bars in town and they both have their sound booths tucked away in a corner , nowhere near the FOH speakers so really all you hear is a lot of muddiness. I've learned to use my eyes and the meter bridge to set levels ect, out of necessity, and knowing the room well. I think it's good to be resourceful and aware with all of your senses. Just don't rely too much on just sight or just hearing. Kris My Band: http://www.fullblackout.com UPDATED!!! Fairly regularly these days... http://www.logcabinmusic.com updated 11/9/04 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
videoeditor1 Posted June 22, 2001 Share Posted June 22, 2001 Ditto Ken, You beat me to the punch. There are times when my ears are useless (I've been atthe FOH console for 5 hrs @ 120+Db... and all I've got left is my sight. Or like tonight, when my last pair of 7502's failed at FOH during the 2nd song. I'm upstqairs in a pigeonhle, and it takes 2 minutes to get down to where the speakers are firing, and the act is IN THE AUDIENCE, STANDING on CHAIRS, etc. No sweat, I was reording to 32 tracks, I just used the levels on the HDR....t osupplement the stuff I was hearing. I have learnt to trust a combination of my senses. NYC Drew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyd Posted June 22, 2001 Share Posted June 22, 2001 Originally posted by NYC Drew: Ditto Ken, You beat me to the punch. There are times when my ears are useless (I've been atthe FOH console for 5 hrs @ 120+Db... and all I've got left is my sight. Or like tonight, when my last pair of 7502's failed at FOH during the 2nd song. I'm upstqairs in a pigeonhle, and it takes 2 minutes to get down to where the speakers are firing, and the act is IN THE AUDIENCE, STANDING on CHAIRS, etc. No sweat, I was reording to 32 tracks, I just used the levels on the HDR....t osupplement the stuff I was hearing. I have learnt to trust a combination of my senses. NYC Drew OK, stupid question here: What's FOH? -Gary http://www.soundclick.com/bands/8/garydmusic.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hiraga Posted June 22, 2001 Share Posted June 22, 2001 I prefer mixing ProTools/ProControl with the monitor turned OFF. Then it's almost like real mixing.. of course I can only do this if the track count don't exceed the Faderpack, but I did three nice mixes this way. I'm not into visual mixing. I find it disturbing as hell. I have no meters on my desk (all the gear I have craps out before that anyway), pres, comps (gain reduction too) etc. I do like meters on digital devices, like my TCs & Eventides though. And my digital multitracker. And my reel2reels. Don't have any computers, but I have two monitors for my Roland S-330/550 Samplers. Quite handy. But they're off during mixing anyway. I also turn off all light when mixing. And I prefer mixing at nite. No, I'm not a vampyre..!! I do a lot of FOH as well, and here visual control is very important to me. That's visual contact with the stage, not some blinkin' meters.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F7sound - Posted June 22, 2001 Share Posted June 22, 2001 Ever since I've been able to see waveforms, my perspective on audio has changed. I love being able to make surgical edits, and that's where the eyes come in handy, but I have to check with my ears! Even the best-made edits just don't work with the music. Michael Oster F7 Sound and Vision http://www.f7sound.com Michael Oster F7 Sound and Vision http://www.F7sound.com http://www.regurgitron.com http://www.LaptopNoise.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kris Posted June 22, 2001 Share Posted June 22, 2001 FOH = Front Of House Kris My Band: http://www.fullblackout.com UPDATED!!! Fairly regularly these days... http://www.logcabinmusic.com updated 11/9/04 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emile Posted June 22, 2001 Share Posted June 22, 2001 I think if you've been doing it for a while, you don't see the screen anymore and rely solely on the ears for tweaking parameters. But at first it might be distracting. That being said, there are certain aspects of editing (like cleaning tracks) that I can do without listening (still I always check it) because to an extent I can read waveforms. I know just by looking at it what's a breath, an "s", a kick, a snare, the slope at the end of a bass notes, a glitch versus a transient, etc... The same could be said of boxed guitar playing. Just because you're watching where the fingers go does that mean you don't listen to the timbre? Obviously for a lot of rookies it's like that, but after a while you don't even think of what notes you're playing and are just focusing on how it sounds in the music. Emile Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KenElevenShadows Posted June 24, 2001 Share Posted June 24, 2001 Emile, the guitar playing analogy is an apt one. It's simply another tool, one that should not distract. if it is distracting, I suppose that one could try and perform edits without those "pesky waveforms". As I mentioned previously, I used to do this with my Korg DSS-1 sampler, and I always thought it was a pain in the rear. Sure, I can do it only with my ear, but I'd rather include one more of my senses and get the job done more efficiently. ------------------ Ken/Eleven Shadows/d i t h er/Nectar http://www.elevenshadows.com 4 music, travel, more! http://www.cdbaby.com/elevenshadows Ken Lee Photography - photos and books Eleven Shadows ambient music The Mercury Seven-cool spacey music Linktree to various sites Instagram Nightaxians Video Podcast Eleven Shadows website Ken Lee Photography Pinterest Page Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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