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I think of music is a shorthand that can be used inspire and recall emotions, just like characters on a page can be used to tell stories. Emotion is emotion. Music is a language that happens to describe emotion very accurately.

 

The process as to how this works remains a mystery. Some function in our minds puts the pieces together and makes meaning out of it, just like when we watch a series of 30 still photos every second and think we're seeing people moving around and talking to one another. It's all a sleight-of-hand aimed at tricking our minds. But it's cool that our minds can be tricked with such predictable results.

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Originally posted by popmusic:

...Those cavemen (or cavewomen?) already have a frame of reference. They're already conditioned. OK, they haven't been exposed to Celine Dion or anything like that... But they might know that there are certain sounds they like and dislike.

 

OK...ok, but again...somewhere there was a "first" caveman with NO PROCONCIEVED/PROCONDITIONED notions on which sound he/she should make in order to get a specific emotional response.

So...FIRST he heard the sound...THEN he came to the conclusion how it made him feel. After that...he could use that knowledge to repeat the process...

 

So do we need to go all the way back to the "Big Bang"...before we agree that sound came FIRST...emotion SECOND...hahaha...

miroslav - miroslavmusic.com

 

"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."

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>> As to your position that people may not get the same emotion, I wonder if we are not culturally conditioned to *expect* some sort of emotional reaction whenever we hear a grouping of sounds that we decide is music?>>

 

Yes, that is exactly what I was driving at. i believe that a lot of our emotional response to music is culturally conditioned. This isn't too surprising since much of our emotional responses are culturally conditioned. Not 100% culturally conditioned, but nevertheless, largely influenced by cultural cues.

 

So when earlier I stated that example of a majestic orchestra, we may be conditioned to respond to that in such a manner that someone who been exposed primarily to mouth harp music would not necessarily respond to similarly.

 

A lot of people who write music expect us to respond similarly, and this is largely the reason why many Western pop love songs, for example, might sound relatively similar -- for example, sweeping strings during the stirring chorus, the overexcited, histrionic vocals, the relatively slow tempo, etc. are designed to illicit such a response in a listener. Or it might be, for example, why there is really fast music during a chase scene during an action movie -- or a sweeping panoramic view might be accompanied by a large, sweeping orchestral score. There are always exceptions to this, but the very fact that some of you might know what I am referring to suggests that there is indeed a cultural commonality at work here, and that it is designed with the thought that we will respond in a relatively similar manner.

 

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Ken/Eleven Shadows/d i t h er/Nectar

http://www.elevenshadows.com 4 music, travel, more!

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Standby for Chip's long and tangential post of the night...

 

BEGIN TRANSMISSION....

 

I don't think emotional response to music is relative to enviromental conditioning.

 

Because of a number of completely unfounded theories I have as follows:

 

A) I think the human mind has a built in mechanism to try to place order upon everything it percieves, to one degree or another.

 

D) The act of *pursuing* placing order upon something is pleasureable *when it is something we're unfamiliar with*. This produces the sensation of "accomplishment", which creates a healthy bio-physiological feedback loop. This is why we don't get pleasure from ordering our daily environment when it's terious: we're familiar with it.

 

C) The other end of the scale is completely unbridled complexity in the form of chaos: that which is beyond our comprehension. This is why chaotic things are so enthralling I think: staring at fire, a waterfall - the sound of waves breaking on a beach, the formation of clouds, looking at a star-filled sky. Because out capacity to embrace these things completely is so utterly beyond us intellectually, it's pleasureable: it is the Omnipotent Unorderable. It will never get tedious from familiarity.

 

WHICH BRINGS ME TO THE POINT OF EMOTIONAL RESPONSE TO MUSIC:

 

I think ultimately music provides the mind the illusion of that near-Omnipotent Unorderable Complexity - but in the end becomes orderable which yields a defined sense of pleasure. Most adults do not find nursery rhymes pleasurable; we know how they go, we know how narrow-casted the possibilities are, we know it's monophonic and we know the range of content is also limited. That greatly reduces the potential percieved complexity, hence the pleasure.

 

At the same time, a "simple" melody allows for greater complexity in accent and embellishment. Again, this is placing order upon potential chaos - the myriad choices. The nursery rhyme presents itself at a complete package, the simple but great melody an open box - complexity.

 

The mind in it's "idling" state probably seeks to find something complex to order, almost like a "biasing" concept perhaps. Music accomplishes this.

 

The mathematical arrangement of tones adds to the complexity, but it also defines the process of placing order to the sound. You're not passively perceiving a minor chord; you're noting it's *NOT* a major chord, it's NOT a suspension, it's NOT a number of other possibilities - atonal, microtonal, etc.

 

I think emotional responses in music is universal. Even in asian and Indian music, there are common analogs to tension/resolution. The result is a different emotional bias since the process of listening is different.

 

 

I do not think a person raised listening to ragas is going to feel the *exact* same emotional response to a piece of music a westerner will hear, listening to western-based music. The idea of "sad", "happy" is way too simplistic: there are shades to emotion, aspects which don't have names (in English; there are more concise descriptions in Japanese and French I believe). Specific musical phrases yield specific emototional responses, regardless of cultural background and conditioning; what that effects is the willingness to accept the emotional response as being "valid" and not a cliche.

 

My reasoning is based on what I started this post with, the description of sounds that produce universal feelings. Feelings I'm not going to ascribe to words, but we *know* are universal:

 

The feeling of hearing water flowing

The feeling of hearing a baby cry

The feeling of hearing a loud concussion, like thunder

 

Etc.

 

These are things that create a response in the mind, which then tries to organize it. That process of organization creates the emotional response. The *specific* emotional *response* is tied perhaps to memories, conditions - but I don't think it is conditional itself.

 

As proof of this, consider bird song: universally accepted as a "pleasant" thing. If conditioning was tempering things, everyone would have different emotional responses to this thing found in nature. A kid raised in a terrible environment, why would he associate bird song with "pleasant" while reserving minor tonality for "unpleasant"? He doesn't, it's built in.

 

There is probably a mathematical relationship tied to root properties of the timing of the various brain rhythms.

 

ASIDE:

 

Today I encountered something very, very strange I cannot account for.

 

A student of mine has very, very poor rhythm. Maybe the worst I've encountered. I have tricks and methods of working such people through their handicap to the point they can "play" music, but this person proved enigmatic.

 

I thought I had "cured" him more or less until today. This guy can't tap a steady rhythm AT ALL. As in, play a song for him and he'll tap *nothing* on beat, fall out of sync by an 1/8th note and not know the difference. Unless I point it out visually: point at the metronome suddenly when it's clicking, then point to him the moment he taps the beat... "ahh, ok..."....

 

 

Today I noticed something odd. He was dragging above a certain tempo, rushing below.

 

As it turns out, he can keep almost perfect time at 84 bpm.

 

I blind-tested him on this, he couldn't have been faking it. It's like he has an internal metronome set for 84bpm.

 

He hasn't been listening to any one thing in particular. The song he had been working on was faster. Asked him if his computer made a regular noise - no... videogames - no. Refigerator - no.

 

So, I'm going to test him again next week. If it's *still* 84 bpm I'm going to make him run around the building to get his heart rate up, then test it again.

 

Expectedly, when I showed him a song at that tempo I found on one of his CD's he didn't have any trouble playing it. "Have you been listening to this song?" "No, I haven't listened to that CD since it came out...).

 

The "internal clock" theories relating to heart rate haven't been proven I don't think... but if it's got something to do with a universal root function of the brain's processes that's an intriguing notion.

 

WHICH LEADS BACK TO.....

 

Conditioned emotional response. What is "fast", what is "slow"? What *exact* tempo is the breakdown? It's non-non-linear - look at the tempo markings on a metronome. That's something hard wired into us but non-exacting. "Fast" isn't associated with "comfort", "slow" isn't associated with "aggression". What the break point is has to do with some sort of relationship to a physiological function - because I think what I just mentioned is true regardless of what culture you're from. A human thing.

 

So organizing the complexity of music triggers emotional responses not from conditioning but from some sort of mathematical relationship relative to our physiology I think. Non-consonant chords perhaps *are* non-consonant not because of conditioning, but because that sensation of dissonance is something we don't find *physically* pleasant; we perhaps associate it the relative speeds of physiological responses like the frequency of muscles trembling under duress, muscle tremor from fear, shaking from being cold... consonance perhaps with other physiological functions.

 

Or maybe not.

 

Chip McDonald

Member, Serious Loon Society (Insomnia Division)

 

------------------

New and Improved Music Soon: http://www.mp3.com/chipmcdonald

Guitar Lessons in Augusta Georgia: www.chipmcdonald.com

Eccentric blog: https://chipmcdonaldblog.blogspot.com/

 

/ "big ass windbag" - Bruce Swedien

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<<...yeah. but how do you know that the big bang wasn't an emotional response?...

 

I'm sure it went something like:

BAAANG!!! "What the fuck was that?"

Sound...followed by an emotional response.

 

<<...As proof of this, consider bird song: universally accepted as a "pleasant" thing...>>

My sister who lives in NYC when ever she comes to visit:"Those damn birds with their chirping woke me up aging!!!

 

<<...he'll tap *nothing* on beat, fall out of sync by an 1/8th note and not know the difference...>>

I think he's learing the wrong instrument...I sense a natural born drummer in the making!

 

OK...what were we talking about?...who's bogarting the joint?...Chip???

 

 

This message has been edited by miroslav on 06-22-2001 at 08:34 AM

miroslav - miroslavmusic.com

 

"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."

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Originally posted by Chip McDonald:

ASIDE:

 

Today I encountered something very, very strange I cannot account for.

 

Also kinda off topic, but not really: I know someone who doesn't like minor chords. Period. If there's more than one minor chord in a song, she associates it with being a "depressing" song.

 

She got an Enya CD and said it was too dark and depressing for her tastes. I would think that the "universal" emotion related to Enya's music is calmness... but this particular listener is the only person I've met who found it *depressing*.

 

Her music tastes run toward doo wop, church hymns, and soft rock (styles of music centered pretty much around major chords). If that isn't an example of conditioning, I don't know what is. Or is there another explanation?

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I find Enya's music extremely depressing. They keep playing it at work and it's driving me nuts! What's up with that stuff? It sounds like The Singing Nuns on mushrooms to me. Sorry, you brought it up.

Mac Bowne

G-Clef Acoustics Ltd.

Osaka, Japan

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Well, I'm not a fan of Enya either, but if there is a "universal emotion" that can be gleaned from listening to it, it's one of calmness. Just thought it was odd that someone found it depressing... Or I guess that's now *two* people who found it depressing...

 

Hey, maybe the people who find it calm are in the minority...? http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif

 

Still, the whole "minor chords depress me" thing strikes me as unusual.

 

 

 

This message has been edited by popmusic on 06-22-2001 at 09:58 AM

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Wow, interesting thread.

 

I've got this great book called _Psychology Of Music_ which goes into great and horrific detail about the relationships between different pitches and their emotional effects on people. Which I don't have here with me, or I'd give some more info.. got it at Barnes & Nobles though, so it can't be too hard to scope out.

 

I don't think this stuff is fundamentally subjective... I believe it's all about math and certain frequency ratios being more pleasing to people than others. That's how diatonic chords work, especially if you get rid of tempered tuning. And if you wanna get all mad-scientist with it, I think you can use this stuff to write... BETTER POP TUNES!@!@#$ hoo hooz.

 

It's like with physical beauty. In women, a .7:1 waist to hips ratio has been found to be 'ideal' throughout history and across cultures. Weight/size can go up & down, but the ratio has always been the same. Faces with symmetrical features are more attractive to test subjects, babies and adults alike, than those that are 'lopsided'.

 

I think we like discernable patterns... that's how a groove works, it's how a chord works internally, the patterns.

 

G. Ratte'/cDc

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I think what we're getting into is the whole field of music therapy...

 

I've heard the theories that classical music can make plants grow, and that people (and babies in the womb) become smarter and less stressed if they're exposed to lots of Mozart...

 

I dunno... I can't stand most Mozart (except for his later, darker, more sinister-sounding pieces... http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif ).

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I don't think we will REALLY come to a final agreement on the whole "does music have emotion or not" discussion.

 

I have stated that I beleive that music/sound originally...somewhere in the primordial mud...had/has emotion. However...billions of years later...emotional response to music is often conditioned.

 

We could think/discuss possible ways to loose that conditioning.

 

How to play those minor chords and NOT have them sound just "sad" or "depressing"...?

How to musically surprise and intigue people...so they really can't guess ahead where the music is taking them, thereby quickly summoning up a conditioned response...?

 

I love a tune that has me moving in an "expected direction" and then all of a sudden..."heeeaaay...that was cool...play that part again"!!!

 

It kind of reminds me a bit of windchimes...they just play at random...sometimes you get a "chill up your spine", other times it is just ding, ding, ding.

 

I guess that is why I find world music so much fun to listen to. The lyrics are usually not a factor because I don't understnd the language...so I just listen to the music/sounds...often I get those chills running up my spine...

miroslav - miroslavmusic.com

 

"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."

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Originally posted by miroslav:

We could think/discuss possible ways to loose that conditioning.

 

True, but (and this sounds like a self-help program here) the listener would have to *want* to lose that conditioning. I know of plenty listeners who only like what they already know, and nothing new (hence the popularity of "classic rock" and "classic oldies" radio stations).

 

 

Originally posted by miroslav:

I guess that is why I find world music so much fun to listen to. The lyrics are usually not a factor because I don't understnd the language...so I just listen to the music/sounds...often I get those chills running up my spine...

 

I agree... Too bad Americans are generally afraid of anything that's not in English... There's some incredible music out there that's waiting to be discovered.

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Ratte,

 

You're on to me. I got a Psych degree with an emphasis on perception of sound and language just so I could hold my own in this on-going discussion I have had over the years with my roommmate (who is a classically-trained pianist and a medical doctor - so I can't get away with just blowing smoke). I have that book, as well as many others which deal with cognitive development, perception, language acquisition, etc...

 

It's true that our brains (based on documented research) respond differently to different tonal intervals, which is why the discussion is on-going. There certainly appears to be a physiological basis for what the human listener perceives to be pleasant as opposed to unpleasant in terms of sound. However, it is the *value* we assign to the physiological responses that leaves the realm of the purely physical and becomes a matter of perception. And, based on the responses regarding Enya, perception varies like mileage.

 

I really like your comment about the groove, too. Perhaps the brain, once it has grasped the repetitive and predictable qualities of a "pop" phrase, can "ignore" the basic aspects of a song and devote processing power to more esoteric elements such as melodic variation, lyrics, solos, etc? I can see how that would be useful information for someone wanting to maximize the commercial potential of their music. Hmmm, this may be why the songs that get stuck in my head are almost always popular tunes rather than symphonic/operatic/avant garde works?

 

Sorry this is getting so deep. I'll lay off the caffeine for a while...

 

Paul

 

 

 

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What's on, your mind?

I'm not a "people" person, I'm a "thing" person.
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I agree that the major/minor thing is in the physics of the relationships between the notes also. The concept of tension/resolution are extensions of this too. Tritones and other stridently dissonent harmonies evoke disgust in most people, well at least they did for a long time, until Jimi Hendrix used them in pop songs. Come to think of it the song was called Manic Depression after all. I live in Japan now, everything is in a minor key. Are these people sad? No, but they like tragedy and meloncholy in their traditional performing arts. I get emotional messages from most music that I listen to even from different cultures. I went to a performance of Okinawan folk music recently and was deeply moved even though I couldn't understand a single word. It inspired me to come home and write down some lyrics which came to mind on the train ride home. The lyrics were centered around the image of a bridge, not an uncommon poetic metaphor. A few weeks later the Okinawan singer and her husband came to my house for dinner, she is a person I have worked with, and I told him how the performance inspired me to write a song, showing him the lyrics. He told me that the last song in the performance was a folk song about death which uses the image of three bridges to heaven. She had dedicated it to her mother who had recently died. I hadn't understood a word she said during the show. Spooky, but I believe music can have that much power. You don't hear stuff like that on the radio though.

 

------------------

Mac Bowne

G-Clef Acoustics Ltd.

Osaka, Japan

My Music: www.javamusic.com/freedomland

Mac Bowne

G-Clef Acoustics Ltd.

Osaka, Japan

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<>

 

That is pretty amazing, that you picked up on what was being SAID solely by what was being PLAYED. Coincidence? I doubt it. Some information was being transferred in some coded way that I don't think we understand...yet.

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gtrmac,

 

That IS an amazing experience. I think Craig is right in thinking that some form of communication was taking place even without a common "language" other than music.

 

A common problem that I have encountered with the scientific method is that it is really only good at dealing with phenomena if all the variable are defined or capable of some definition. Analytical approach fails when it tries to measure something ephemeral like emotion or music.

 

I would be interested in finding out what aspects and characteristics of the music gave you the imagery you received. Simply curious - I promise not to analyze it to death. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif How beautiful would it be to be able to communicate on that level?

I'm not a "people" person, I'm a "thing" person.
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I have no idea how the imagery passed from her song to me. The funny thing is that I only rarely write poetry or lyrics. I mean like once in two or three years I feel the urge, or have a phrase or something start me off. I usually write instrumental music. When I left the concert I had a very strong impulse to write this bridge imagery down. When I told Koja-san and her husband about it they just kinda smiled about it. It did not really surprise them that much. He said something like "yeah music does things like that".

By the way my thing went something like "can we take it to the bridge?, can I take it to the bridge? -just kidding, sorry, I was getting too serious there for a while.

 

------------------

Mac Bowne

G-Clef Acoustics Ltd.

Osaka, Japan

My Music: www.javamusic.com/freedomland

Mac Bowne

G-Clef Acoustics Ltd.

Osaka, Japan

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Even the deepest of hate conveyed through sound is the power of love. True balance can be achieved with a bit of rhythm and melody. Ying and yang. It flows. The positive and negative. True music can put this duality into a flow. Harmony will be achieved, literally and figuratively.
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Originally posted by popmusic:

Just thought it was odd that someone found it depressing... Or I guess that's now *two* people who found it depressing...

 

She often either switches to a minor cadence of the main theme, or throws in a minor/modal section for contrast... For someone who likes doo wop, that's probably too unsettling. Hmm.

 

An Enya tune would be like the emotion of "awareness of specific potentially joyful concepts, tempered with the occasional wistful memory".

I found it odd that on her latest cd she has a very heavy minor key dirge on it - a very forboding piece of music. Perhaps some people hear that and it colors their overall perception too much, or they simply don't want a mood disturbed once set up (hence "new age ambient" music).

 

 

------------------

New and Improved Music Soon: http://www.mp3.com/chipmcdonald

Guitar Lessons in Augusta Georgia: www.chipmcdonald.com

Eccentric blog: https://chipmcdonaldblog.blogspot.com/

 

/ "big ass windbag" - Bruce Swedien

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I really should have said that I find Enya's music a depressant instead of depressing. It puts me to sleep. This is not what I look for in music. It doesn't contain enough emotion to maintain my interest. I find the idea of this music depressing. I find the paintings in hotel rooms depressing too. Even the cheerful ones.

Mac Bowne

G-Clef Acoustics Ltd.

Osaka, Japan

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What I wonder is if there are certain sounds which are naturally "pleasing" to people who have been minimally conditioned... And then if it's possible if those "pleasing" tastes could be flip-flopped through conditioning.

 

For example, 15 years ago, there's no way I could enjoy "Revolution #9" or something as "out there" as Sondheim's music. But through exposure to other music (some of it still beyond my understanding, like Coltrane), I almost *need* a certain amount of dissonance in order to find something stimulating.

 

 

This message has been edited by popmusic on 06-24-2001 at 01:00 PM

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Originally posted by gtrmac@hotmail.com:

This is not what I look for in music.

 

You don't always look for the same thing in music, do you?

 

I guess I'm a freak. There isn't a particular style of music I like 24/7 non-stop. If I'm going to sleep, I don't want to hear Pantera. I *might* want to hear Pantera if I'm about to go bike riding. Feeling detached - Cocteau Twins. Angry, NIN. Introspective, Allan Holdsworth maybe. All depends.

 

I *might* try counter-programming. Dave Matthews is about the only blatantly major-key music I enjoy; I might put that in if I know I'm feeling detrimentally sad. Maybe some Beethoven if I'm feeling too small in the Greater Scheme of Things. All depends. I don't get the mono-style listening habit.

 

Unfortuntately, this makes me unbearable to be around for the most part, since what I want to hear seldom corresponds to anyone else.

 

------------------

New and Improved Music Soon: http://www.mp3.com/chipmcdonald

Guitar Lessons in Augusta Georgia: www.chipmcdonald.com

Eccentric blog: https://chipmcdonaldblog.blogspot.com/

 

/ "big ass windbag" - Bruce Swedien

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