RecreationalThinker Posted June 21, 2001 Share Posted June 21, 2001 Here is another deep thought I have been wrestling with for many years: Does music have emotional content? I was listening to my roommate play a Chopin sonata (I cant remember which now) many years ago. After he concluded his masterful performance, he turned to me and asked, Dont you think that was a very emotional piece of music? My immediate response was, no music doesnt contain emotion. Rather, the emotion resides in the listener. We have been batting this discussion around from various perspectives ever since. In the process, we have discussed how overtones affect a listener, neurological processing of sound, the spiritual aspects and traditions of music, behavioral responses to certain songs, and many other topics. This is not a matter of one of us being right. I am just curious as to how other musicians feel about this issue. ------------------ What's on, your mind? I'm not a "people" person, I'm a "thing" person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miroslav Posted June 21, 2001 Share Posted June 21, 2001 A lot IS up to the listener...but... Ever notice how certain passages or entire tunes elicit very similar emotional responses from different people in different places? There IS music that just sounds HAPPY, SAD, ANGRY......etc. So...I think that the specific make-up of melodies, harmonies, chords...does contain specific emotional "messages" that we can hear and feel. Also, specific instruments might enhance a particular "message". A bit of it might be just "ear training" like..."oh yeah, a soft flowing Minor Key viloin passage,...I'm supposed to feel sad". But I think from the first moment an instrument was created and played a certain way...it spoke its language...that is where the emotional message comes from. miroslav - miroslavmusic.com "Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RecreationalThinker Posted June 21, 2001 Author Share Posted June 21, 2001 Miroslav, My position is that we are conditioned to associate certain emotional responses with certain types of musical passages, such as in your violin example. Say that a person who was born deaf was given the ability to hear at the age of seven. [i choose this age because neurological research indicates that language acquisition most *strongly* takes place between the approximate ages of three to six years, and the perceptual aspects of music are similar to langauge perception.] If you were to play a piece of music which you considered to have emotional content for this newly-hearing person, would they have an emotional response similar to your own. Now granted, we all respond emotionally in varying ways. I am not asking if they would respond exactly as you would. But, would they feel the same *general* emotion, ie. sadness, happiness, longing? ------------------ What's on, your mind? I'm not a "people" person, I'm a "thing" person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KenElevenShadows Posted June 21, 2001 Share Posted June 21, 2001 Music contains emotion, but a lot of that emotion is contained within the culture from where the music sprang from. For instance, if many Americans listen to a throat singer from Tuva, who is singing a song of love, it's quite possible that they may not get the same emotion despite the fact that that person is singing with a great deal of emotion. It may be the same with music that does not contain singing. A majestic orchestra may not illicit the same response to an aborigine as it does to a European person. Many times, music transcends cultural and linguistic boundaries -- but of course, not always!! I don't think there is any doubt to me that a lot of music contains emotion, or that emotional response is also largely dependent on the listener. What is especially powerful is when a music listener (or even more powerful sometimes, a group of listeners) really responds to an emotionally charged bit of music. ------------------ Ken/Eleven Shadows/d i t h er/Nectar http://www.elevenshadows.com 4 music, travel, more! http://www.cdbaby.com/elevenshadows Ken Lee Photography - photos and books Eleven Shadows ambient music The Mercury Seven-cool spacey music Linktree to various sites Instagram Nightaxians Video Podcast Eleven Shadows website Ken Lee Photography Pinterest Page Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miroslav Posted June 21, 2001 Share Posted June 21, 2001 Well...what came first the chicken or the egg... To simplify...going back to the first "tune" on a "virgin" instrument... I would say that the musician started playing, and he/she chose specific notes for that "first" composition BECAUSE they caused specific emotions... Not just playing the notes, and THEN gauging the emotional response of listeners, taking note of that, and later using that same collection of notes everytime he/she wanted to elicit a similar emotional response. If it was only a conditioned reaction, then you could take a traditionally "sad" tune and turn it into a "happy" tune...don't think you can. The emotion was felt by the "first" player of the "first" instrument...and it was a pleasent experience. Therefore, people continued making and discovering new forms of music/instruments. I am convinced that your seven year old "former deaf person" would feel the same emotions that other people feel. It's in the music/instrument, the performance just "gets it out". Of course...the performer can add his/her emotion to the performance too. This message has been edited by miroslav on 06-21-2001 at 11:51 AM miroslav - miroslavmusic.com "Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RecreationalThinker Posted June 21, 2001 Author Share Posted June 21, 2001 Originally posted by Ken/Eleven Shadows: Music contains emotion, but a lot of that emotion is contained within the culture from where the music sprang from. For instance, if many Americans listen to a throat singer from Tuva, who is singing a song of love, it's quite possible that they may not get the same emotion despite the fact that that person is singing with a great deal of emotion. It may be the same with music that does not contain singing. A majestic orchestra may not illicit the same response to an aborigine as it does to a European person. Many times, music transcends cultural and linguistic boundaries -- but of course, not always!! I don't think there is any doubt to me that a lot of music contains emotion, or that emotional response is also largely dependent on the listener. What is especially powerful is when a music listener (or even more powerful sometimes, a group of listeners) really responds to an emotionally charged bit of music. Ken, I have pursued a similar tactic in my own discussions about this matter, but I usually use gamelon music as my starting point. As to your position that people may not get the same emotion, I wonder if we are not culturally conditioned to *expect* some sort of emotional reaction whenever we hear a grouping of sounds that we decide is music? ------------------ What's on, your mind? I'm not a "people" person, I'm a "thing" person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RecreationalThinker Posted June 21, 2001 Author Share Posted June 21, 2001 Originally posted by miroslav: Well...what came first the chicken or the egg... To simplify...going back to the first "tune" on a "virgin" instrument... I would say that the musician started playing, and he/she chose specific notes for that "first" composition BECAUSE they caused specific emotions... Not just playing the notes, and THEN gauging the emotional response of listeners, taking note of that, and later using that same collection of notes everytime he/she wanted to elicit a similar emotional response. If it was only a conditioned reaction, then you could take a traditionally "sad" tune and turn it into a "happy" tune...don't think you can. The emotion was felt by the "first" player of the "first" instrument...and it was a pleasent experience. Therefore, people continued making and discovering new forms of music/instruments. I am convinced that your seven year old "former deaf person" would feel the same emotions that other people feel. It's in the music/instrument, the performance just "gets it out". Of course...the performer can add his/her emotion to the performance too. This message has been edited by miroslav on 06-21-2001 at 11:51 AM miroslav, Your point is well taken, and very thought-provoking. I wonder if I would a player on a "virgin" instrument would be able to elicit an emotional response without some point of reference, perhaps a different non-virgin instrument? I will have to give that some thought. As to the premise of being unable to turn a "sad" tune into a "happy" one, I agree with you, but I feel that this particular example supports my conditioning premise: We are used to associating certain modulations, progressions and intervals with certain emotional responses. Some types of conditioning are *very* strong and can't easily be undone. There is even evidence that we are born with certain conditioned responses to sound: a newborn infant responds to the sound of the mother's voice more strongly than to any other stimulus. I appreciate your insight. I will keep thinking about it. ------------------ What's on, your mind? I'm not a "people" person, I'm a "thing" person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calfee Jones Posted June 21, 2001 Share Posted June 21, 2001 So what you are saying is that music can evoke an emotional response in the listener, but that the music doesn't necessarily contain "emotion" within it. Well that makes sense... - Calfee Jones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miroslav Posted June 21, 2001 Share Posted June 21, 2001 Yes..there is music that is used intentionally because we KNOW the response before we even play the music....modern advertising lives off of this fact. But,...you really have to go "back to the begining" to get an accurate answer...that is why I talked about "first" tune and "virgin" instruments. I think that once you learn to play a "virgin" instrument...you will dicover which of its sounds release specific emotions in you...AND...similar ones in other people that will be hearing it for the first time but feeling your emotions...now that, is NOT conditioned. My thinking comes from the fact that I tend to have very wide musical intersts and most people would say I listen to "weird stuff". I can go from Led Zepplin to native music of Zimbabwe and then to Zydeco...no problem. Point is...as I listen to a lot of this "world music", I hear instruments, notes, scales...that are not your typical "western-civ" stuff. I have NO preconceived notions of what/how anything SHOULD sound like, or its "message"...but I can still hear it and feel it...sad, happy, angry...etc. I think a simple bit of testing could provide some answers. Gather a bunch of people, play them a totaly unknown, non-western-civ tune, and take note of their individual responses. Then, have the composer give his/her feeling on what the tune was "intented" to be...sad, happy...and see if anyone was right on, or way off... There is a lot of power in them thar notes!!! miroslav - miroslavmusic.com "Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miroslav Posted June 21, 2001 Share Posted June 21, 2001 Another quick thought... Listening to Neil Young...man!...he can hit one note on his guitar...just ONE NOTE...it can even be out of tune...and the emotion flows like a waterfall! Anyone that hears that note... gets Neil's message from that one note...no preconditioned stuff there! miroslav - miroslavmusic.com "Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kris Posted June 21, 2001 Share Posted June 21, 2001 Not anyone! Kris My Band: http://www.fullblackout.com UPDATED!!! Fairly regularly these days... http://www.logcabinmusic.com updated 11/9/04 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miroslav Posted June 21, 2001 Share Posted June 21, 2001 Kris..."This note's for you"! Awww come on...you hear it...you just might not like/agree with it...hahaha! miroslav - miroslavmusic.com "Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b3wiz Posted June 21, 2001 Share Posted June 21, 2001 Chopin et al have been played off the sheet music thousands of times by good technical players who failed to communicate the emotion of the original writers. Everyone within eyesight of this who is a musician should know there are times when the Amygdala- the emotional side of our brain- is aligned perfectly with the rest of our brain an body and what we play at that point is emotional beyond belief and that that emotion is both contagious and reciprocal with the listening audience. Other times we are just not into it and we can barely get thru the song and it evokes no response from the listener at all. Sometimes the band is really into it and no one is listening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
- Posted June 21, 2001 Share Posted June 21, 2001 Originally posted by RecreationalThinker: Here is another deep thought I have been wrestling with for many years: Does music have emotional content? No. An artist can put their emotions into the performance or into the material, but it's up to the listener to determine whether the music emotionally resonates with them or not. This is why I can remain stone-faced and irritated through an Andrew Lloyd Webber musical, while everyone else in the theater is crying their eyes out. It's also why my jaw occasionally drops to the floor when I'm listening to Brazillian music, while other people say, "But it's not in *English!*" http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif Much of how someone reacts to music is related to the music the listener has already been exposed to, as well as their culture and their exposure to sound in general. For example, even if you were to create a "virgin" instrument, you can't change the fact that a person has already experienced many sounds in their life -- the sound of cars going by, the sound of water, the sound of a mother's heartbeat. Everyone has a different frame of reference, and if the music touches that frame of reference in some way, then most likely the listener will enjoy it. We're conditioned -- big time. At least, that's my theory. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif This message has been edited by popmusic on 06-21-2001 at 01:25 PM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miroslav Posted June 21, 2001 Share Posted June 21, 2001 Originally posted by b3wiz: ... technical players who failed to communicate the emotion of the original writers... Hey...some people can fuck up a sunny day...and then they're crying instead of feeling good.... Don't confuse performance with composition. Good music CAN be played poorly, thereby ruining the "emotional message", but music that was composed as "sad" can not be played/conveyed as "happy" very easily or convincingly, though the performance sure can suck or be great!!! We are talking about the music, the notes, the sounds...not the quality of performance...right? miroslav - miroslavmusic.com "Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miroslav Posted June 21, 2001 Share Posted June 21, 2001 Originally posted by popmusic: ...I can remain stone-faced and irritated through an Andrew Lloyd Webber musical, while everyone else in the theater is crying their eyes out... I feel for you my man... But then..you do say "everyone else...crying their eyes out". So there IS some universally understood emotional content in those tunes... Of course we are not talking about 100% complience here...there is always that odd bloke who can "remain stone-faced and irritated through an Andrew Lloyd Webber musical"...hahaha... Oh...I was so...heart-broken when Cats closed...sniff...sniff...I need a tissue. This message has been edited by miroslav on 06-21-2001 at 01:31 PM miroslav - miroslavmusic.com "Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RecreationalThinker Posted June 21, 2001 Author Share Posted June 21, 2001 I am not under the illusion that there is a "right" answer to this question, so all of the responses are interesting to me. b3wiz: "Everyone within eyesight of this who is a musician should know there are times when the Amygdala- the emotional side of our brain- is aligned perfectly with the rest of our brain an body and what we play at that point is emotional beyond belief and that that emotion is both contagious and reciprocal with the listening audience." This is a good point, and I studied it in some detail while getting my Psych degree. You might also recall that the Amygdala is in proximity to the Hippocampus, which is associated with memory. How much of emotion is based on memory, which is based on experience? popmusic: "Much of how someone reacts to music is related to the music the listener has already been exposed to, as well as their culture and their exposure to sound in general. For example, even if you were to create a "virgin" instrument, you can't change the fact that a person has already experienced many sounds in their life -- the sound of cars going by, the sound of water, the sound of a mother's heartbeat. Everyone has a different frame of reference, and if the music touches that frame of reference in some way, then most likely the listener will enjoy it. We're conditioned. Big time." This is my premise as well. Thanks for stating it so clearly. miroslav: "We are talking about the music, the notes, the sounds...not the quality of performance...right?" Yes, miroslav, I discount the quality of the performance (to a certain degree - the listener has to be somewhat interested in the performance in order to achieve enough information to respond emotionally). I keep thinking about that "virgin" instrument theory, and popmusic has clarified my thoughts with his response. If I were to create/discover a completely new instrument, I would be likely to compare it to something I had heard before, sort of the "it tastes like chicken" theory of sound http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif From what I understand about neurology, the brain needs to have some sort of reference point in order to compare input with existing data. A truly virgin instrument would be hard to understand. For instance, if I were to tell you I had created an instrument called a fluboo, I would be likely to describe its sound in terms of something you familiar to you. If you heard it without any explanation, you would be likely to react by comparing it to some other instrument you had heard. I'm still trying to figure out what a "virgin" instrument might sound like without comparing it to something else. Sort of a Zen exercise, huh? http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif Paul ------------------ What's on, your mind? I'm not a "people" person, I'm a "thing" person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
- Posted June 21, 2001 Share Posted June 21, 2001 Originally posted by miroslav: But then..you do say "everyone else...crying their eys out". So there IS some universally understood emotional content in those tunes... Well, if we were to follow this example further... I'm not a fan of musical theater, but I *really* dig Steven Sondheim's work. He's probably the most brilliant lyricist in any genre, and his music and shows are remarkably deep... There's *no* way you can digest everything there is (musically, lyrically, or dramatically) in a Sondheim show on the first viewing. That probably turns off a lot of the audience, since Sondheim doesn't go out of his way to repeat melodies endlessly, overwhelm you with special effects, or go for anything predictable... It's demanding -- on occasion, borderline atonal -- stuff, and you have to be an adventurous kind of listener who *really* loves to listen to things on a deeper level than what top-40 radio requires. So that's my frame of reference when I see an Andrew Lloyd Webber musical. I already have an idea in my head of what's "good", and it's something which requires a lot more thinking than "Cats" or "Evita". If there is something which is "universal" about Andrew Lloyd Webber's stuff which resonates with the public, it's probably that his fans have a similar frame of reference... They probably dig Barry Manilow, Celine Dion, Barbara Streisand (who ironically has covered a bunch of Sondheim songs), etc. I'm not slamming those artists or their fans, but it's not my frame of reference and it's generally not what I listen to. This message has been edited by popmusic on 06-21-2001 at 02:19 PM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anderton Posted June 21, 2001 Share Posted June 21, 2001 Cool thread. I think the purest form of this relates to live performance, as there is a "feedback loop" created between the musician and the audience. If the audience responds emotionally to what I'm playing, then I usually end up playing a more emotional performance. I could also play the same piece of music and not have it come across as emotional if no one's digging it. So I don't think music has an INHERENT emotional component, but contains the raw materials that the performer, preferably in tandem with an audience, can imbue with emotion. Craig Anderton Educational site: http://www.craiganderton.org Music: http://www.youtube.com/thecraiganderton Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/craig_anderton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
- Posted June 21, 2001 Share Posted June 21, 2001 Originally posted by RecreationalThinker: I keep thinking about that "virgin" instrument theory, and popmusic has clarified my thoughts with his response. If I were to create/discover a completely new instrument, I would be likely to compare it to something I had heard before, sort of the "it tastes like chicken" theory of sound http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif You need a "virgin" listener in order for that experiment to work, but it would be impossible to find one. Even a baby is jaded, because it has a frame of reference too... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
- Posted June 21, 2001 Share Posted June 21, 2001 Originally posted by Anderton: Cool thread. Hey Craig -- can we have a "Deep Thoughts" forum?!?!?!? http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b3wiz Posted June 21, 2001 Share Posted June 21, 2001 Miroslav, We are talking about the music, notes etc., but how many people were ever inspired enough to "keep" a song they wrote that didn't move them, save some of the Brittney Spears tunes http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif ? But, I have come up with some songs I really liked only to play them back a day or so later and say to myself: "What in THEE HEELLL WUZ I THINKING? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tedster Posted June 21, 2001 Share Posted June 21, 2001 (Spock voice) "Fascinating, Captain, the idea of 'emotion' is alien to me"...seriously though...the emotion is in the composer...who attempts to convey it to the listener through the music. If he's successful...you're there right with the composer. However, it is obviously possible for a listener to derive a completely different emotion from the one the composer intended. And, I guess that's cool, too... "Cisco Kid, was a friend of mine" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miroslav Posted June 21, 2001 Share Posted June 21, 2001 OK...ok...drool...drool...I'll add more twist... I agree that today...it would be difficult to think in terms of "first tune/virgin instrument"...but take it back...waaaayyyy back...I'm talking primal... First bang on first wooden drum..."mmmmm....me like...feel good...ooooh." Second bang (deeper tone)..."UGHHH...ME LIKE...ME BAD...BANG BANG!" Hearing first bird song..."ahhh...me really like...me happy." Hearing a big nasty animal growl..."ARGHHH...ME NOT LIKE...ME SCARED SHIT!" So...my point is that back at the "beginning" we felt emotion as a result of sound...we didn't make sound as a result of emotion...that came later as we learned which sounds(and combinations) made us feel a particular way. Today...there are probably a lot of conditioned emotional responses to music...but not at the start... I think it only makes matters worse when you listen to only one style of music most of your life...the taste buds get dull and you fall pray to self-hypnosis. I'm amazed at how many people are AFRAID to listen to something new...they want to have those conditioned responses. But sometimes you NEED a certain mood...you just got to get off a certain way...so then it is good if you know which stuff gets you there...just play the "sad" song that always makes you cry... Memories......come on...everybody sing! miroslav - miroslavmusic.com "Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miroslav Posted June 21, 2001 Share Posted June 21, 2001 Originally posted by b3wiz: ...But, I have come up with some songs I really liked only to play them back a day or so later and say to myself: "What in THEE HEELLL WUZ I THINKING? Yeah...I get that a lot with really good weed... miroslav - miroslavmusic.com "Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
- Posted June 21, 2001 Share Posted June 21, 2001 Originally posted by miroslav: First bang on first wooden drum..."mmmmm....me like...feel good...ooooh." Second bang (deeper tone)..."UGHHH...ME LIKE...ME BAD...BANG BANG!" Hearing first bird song..."ahhh...me really like...me happy." Hearing a big nasty animal growl..."ARGHHH...ME NOT LIKE...ME SCARED SHIT!" *BUT*... Those cavemen (or cavewomen?) already have a frame of reference. They're already conditioned. OK, they haven't been exposed to Celine Dion or anything like that... But they might know that there are certain sounds they like and dislike. They know that the faraway stomping of a dinosaur means that there might be trouble coming. Someone may not like the sound of a low-pitched drum, because it reminds them of the time they almost got stepped on by a T-Rex. And yes, cavemen and dinosaurs probably did not exist at the same time, but I'm using the Flintstones as my frame of reference here, OK? http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif This message has been edited by popmusic on 06-21-2001 at 02:36 PM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
- Posted June 21, 2001 Share Posted June 21, 2001 Originally posted by b3wiz: I have come up with some songs I really liked only to play them back a day or so later and say to myself: "What in THEE HEELLL WUZ I THINKING? Or, when you look over your posts in a thread and realized you went from talking about music to show tunes to cavemen... http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b3wiz Posted June 21, 2001 Share Posted June 21, 2001 Originally posted by popmusic: Or, when you look over your posts in a thread and realized you went from talking about music to show tunes to cavemen... http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif Well, just what kind of music do you think we should use to show tunes to cavemen, anyway? http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RecreationalThinker Posted June 21, 2001 Author Share Posted June 21, 2001 Originally posted by b3wiz: Originally posted by popmusic: Or, when you look over your posts in a thread and realized you went from talking about music to show tunes to cavemen... http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif Well, just what kind of music do you think we should use to show tunes to cavemen, anyway? http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif Well, you couldn't use World music to show tunes to cavemen, because they thought the world was flat. Oh wait, the tuning thread is elsewhere in the forum... I'm not a "people" person, I'm a "thing" person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b3wiz Posted June 21, 2001 Share Posted June 21, 2001 Only the dudes with the rams horns thought it was flat. Most everyone thought the world was sharp except for the Lute players. Just like their guitar playing counterparts today, they couln't comprehend anything that was unnatural. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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