Guest Posted June 15, 2001 Share Posted June 15, 2001 Hi guys/gals, I have a question regarding a PA setup. I posted about this awhile back and was wondering what the latest advice was. I have a unique situation with my band that requires a slightly differant setup than most. I need a practice PA for us. We have two drummers, both on full kits so it can get loud. I play guitar(1/2 stack) and sing and we have a bass player running a mesa 400+ head into a 410 cab. What would be a good setup for us as far as wattage, cabs etc. My singing style requires me to sing quietly at times and screaming at others so I need something with dynamics that will allow me to be heard well. Should I go with a powered mixer or power amp/mixer setup? I figure we can spend about 1500-2000 for our PA. I was looking at the Yamaha SE series cabs and they seem within our budget but I am not shure how to set up for just a monitoring system. Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b3wiz Posted June 15, 2001 Share Posted June 15, 2001 If you have 2 drummers and are playing thru half stacks then I would start pouring thru the classifieds for some good used gear if you can only budget that much. There are some good buys out there. The other alternative would be to find the best deal on a rental you can find until you can afford something better. I have become a real fan of the Mackie powered stuff. We have 4-450 Mackies on top and a pair of Mackie subs. It gives us about 3000 watts of tri-amped sound that is unbelievably clear. We get praised everywhere we go for our sound. But, you are looking at 5 grand for the speakers and a 1604 Mackie mixer before you even get into effects and monitors etc. I play occasionally with a band who has 8 of the new Mackie 3 way cabinets. They are very impressive too, but again, you are talking over 8 grand for speakers and board. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rumpelstiltskin. Posted June 15, 2001 Share Posted June 15, 2001 did you check out carvin? they have some very reasonable package deals for amp/mixer and powered mixer systems, complete with cabs and cables. used is also a great route. because i like people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Posted June 16, 2001 Share Posted June 16, 2001 I've also been looking at PA setups since my band is starting to get quite a bit of gigs. I tried out a little 80 watt Fender PA and although it was surprisingly clean, it really lacked any real power. 80 watts is just too low for medium to large gigs. I've now learned that you shouldn't go with anything less than 300 watts. I'm about to go with the Mackie 406M PA head, which runs about $550. I found a pair of Yamaha monitors that sound very nice and sell for $250 for the pair. I didn't get the model # for this unfortunately. I tested these next to Yamaha's bigger speakers (about $200 a piece), and I preferred the sound of the smaller (and less expensive) model. Yamaha also makes a nice 6-channel PA that is comparable to the Mackie and sells for about $60 less. But, with the Mackie you get better preamps, inserts on all 6 mic channels, more effects, and a master compressor. I'd say that's worth the difference in price. Both models also feature 2 power amps that can either run bridged for more wattage or separate to feed 2 different pairs of monitors. The Mackie specs can be found at http://www.mackie.com/Products/PPM_Series/406M.asp . My only advise is to not go for one of the cheap packaged models in the $300-600 range. They lack in wattage, and more importantly, can't power personal stage monitors without needing an additional PA. What is your budget limit exactly? Regarding Carvin's PA's, I have heard horror stories about them crapping out, which is a shame since they make such nice guitars and basses. Anyone have any positive experience with Carvin's pro audio gear? -Dylan This message has been edited by Dylan Walters on 06-15-2001 at 05:11 PM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 16, 2001 Share Posted June 16, 2001 I figure we can scrape up about 2k for a practice PA. I was looking into the Yamaha SE series speakers, they are pretty cheap. I will go all used of course... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fantasticsound Posted June 16, 2001 Share Posted June 16, 2001 Originally posted by Dylan Walters: ...I tried out a little 80 watt Fender PA and although it was surprisingly clean, it really lacked any real power. 80 watts is just too low for medium to large gigs... FYI.. 80 - 100w is no good for anything but small acoustic gigs. This isn't a home stereo. The speakers have to output some serious air pressure to compete with those drum sets and instrument amps. ...I've now learned that you shouldn't go with anything less than 300 watts. I'm about to go with the Mackie 406M PA head, which runs about $550... If you go this route, spend the extra $200 or so on the 808M. More channels and twice the power output. You're going to need it ...I found a pair of Yamaha monitors that sound very nice and sell for $250 for the pair. I didn't get the model # for this unfortunately. I tested these next to Yamaha's bigger speakers (about $200 a piece), and I preferred the sound of the smaller (and less expensive) model... Don't take this advice. With all due respect Dylan, the cheaper Yami speakers you bought have Piezo tweeters, as opposed to the titanium drivers in the more expensive Club series. If you apply proper EQ to the titanium's they'll sound fine. But Seth would certainly blow the tweeters in your Yami's the minute he started singing. Incidentally, you may over do it even with the more expensive stuff, Seth. (From your description of the band, you're going to want a LOT of power for headroom, otherwise the tweeters will be smoked when it clips the low end requirements.) ...Yamaha also makes a nice 6-channel PA that is comparable to the Mackie and sells for about $60 less. But, with the Mackie you get better preamps, inserts on all 6 mic channels, more effects, and a master compressor. I'd say that's worth the difference in price. Both models also feature 2 power amps that can either run bridged for more wattage or separate to feed 2 different pairs of monitors... I couldn't agree more. Mackie also builds stereo models for extra money, but it's NOT worth it. Most of your audience wouldn't hear the stereo effect in most venues, with this type of system and your band. The Mackie powered speakers are a fantastic buy. two will run you between $1500 - $1600, but if this is strictly for vocals, you can buy a small Behringer or Phonic mixer for less than $100. (The phonic is $59 currently at the local Mars in Nashville. Big sale this weekend, so if there's one near you, check it out before Monday.) These mixers are cheap and easy, with only two mic pre's, but they make slightly more expensive mixers with more pre's and routing. These should be used as an introduction to the speakers. When you outgrow the use of the small mixer, buy a bigger or bigger and better one. There are several competing powered speakers on the market from Yamaha, JBL Eon (The G2 series! If you spot a deal on grey Eon's, run from the place screaming! They were NOT designed for music. JBL told their dealers when they hit the market, but people ended up selling them for music anyway.) The new ones ARE designed for full range reproduction, and have an onboard mixer which can be valuable. You may not need to buy a mixer, initially, to use the JBL's) Hope this advice helps. ------------------ Neil Reality: A few moments of lucidity surrounded by insanity. It's easiest to find me on Facebook. Neil Bergman Soundclick fntstcsnd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 16, 2001 Share Posted June 16, 2001 Thanks for the input, so if I go with a couple Mackie powered speakers,a Behringer mixer and then run a processor for vocals I would have enough power and clarity to be heard? You are right, we are a very aggressive and loud band so we do need the extra power. Any thing else you can add would be great, thanks.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 21, 2001 Share Posted June 21, 2001 Which powered speakers should I go for? Mackie or JBL? These are powerful enough on their own for my application? As I understand it, I need a set of powered speakers,a mixer and whatever outboard effects I plan to run...I have heard good things about the JBL's, I am just not sure if they will be clear and loud enough for me. Any input would from you guys would be appreciated... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Poff Posted June 21, 2001 Share Posted June 21, 2001 The JBLs have alot more hiss than the Mackies. Big difference. The Mackies have a much better sound to my ear. Smoother, deeper,even with a 12" woofer. Definitely go somewhere you can compare the two, but to me there's no comparison. I'd also go with the SRM450 instead of the SRS1530. The 1530 isn't that much louder (100W>mid driver)and doesn't sound as good. Not to mention the obvious size advantage of the 450. Is this just for vocals? This could be enough power for you depending on how loud your band is. I know of a few bands I've mixed for where I would want two on each side, even if it was vocals only. Not your average volume levels but some bands must play LOUD.Just not sure if yours is one of them. At any rate, I'd say with your budget it would be tough to do better. Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fantasticsound Posted June 21, 2001 Share Posted June 21, 2001 Originally posted by Jason Poff: The JBLs have alot more hiss than the Mackies. Big difference. The Mackies have a much better sound to my ear. Smoother, deeper,even with a 12" woofer. Definitely go somewhere you can compare the two, but to me there's no comparison. I'd also go with the SRM450 instead of the SRS1530. The 1530 isn't that much louder (100W>mid driver)and doesn't sound as good. Not to mention the obvious size advantage of the 450. Is this just for vocals? This could be enough power for you depending on how loud your band is. I know of a few bands I've mixed for where I would want two on each side, even if it was vocals only. Not your average volume levels but some bands must play LOUD.Just not sure if yours is one of them. At any rate, I'd say with your budget it would be tough to do better. Jason Good advice, but I can't agree that the JBL's have more hiss. I worked most of the last 3 years at the local Mars, and when the G2's came out, we A/B'd the SRM450's and the JBL EON G2's before the store opened, and no difference was apparent in noise output at any freq. The G2's actually had a much smoother transition between the high element and the woofer. This is in part due to the HF level control. It seems to either drive or attenuate the tweeter, rather than filter at a specific freq. Can anyone from Harmon/JBL comment on this? I'd take his advice on numbers. If you can't afford 2 per side now. Run C-A-R-E-F-U-L-L-Y with one per side until you can add the others. As for monitors, that's another set of powered speakers or a passive set with an amp. I believed you wanted this mostly for rehearsal at first, so the "mains" would be the monitors. If you need more info, please email me. I'll be hitting the road a week from Fri, and won't have internet access available for some time. ------------------ Neil Reality: A few moments of lucidity surrounded by insanity. It's easiest to find me on Facebook. Neil Bergman Soundclick fntstcsnd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stanner Posted June 22, 2001 Share Posted June 22, 2001 hey wot is up w/ the jbl powered spkrs(grey) that you warned against? i see live sound companys use them for stage monitors/part of a stage p.a. setup and stuff. what *were* they made for,if you know? and thanx for the info... AMPSSOUNDBETTERLOUDER Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fantasticsound Posted June 22, 2001 Share Posted June 22, 2001 Originally posted by stanner: hey wot is up w/ the jbl powered spkrs(grey) that you warned against? i see live sound companys use them for stage monitors/part of a stage p.a. setup and stuff. what *were* they made for,if you know? and thanx for the info... They were designed for A/V use. In A/V, most often you deal with spoken voice and canned music. The canned music is pre-mixed/mastered, by definition, so someone else has gone to great pains to make it sound decent on anything. The voice uses very little space in the freq. spectrum, so limiting the freq response of the speaker yields higher output available (headroom) before clipping. The speaker doesn't try to accurately reproduce bass, nor does it respond satisfactorily in this manner. In a phrase, it sounds like a reverse SM58. adequate high and low with a presence boost that helps sibilance in the midrange. Kind of like a PA Yami NS-10. (Which people like for differentiation of elements, but I don't know anyone who would use them for general listening.) And as I stated, many were sold without regard to these facts, often because the salesperson had no idea, and was thrilled by the simple advantages of any powered speaker. (When this was pretty much it in the market.) It was designed to be a better Anchor speaker. Anchor makes A/V only audio gear. Great functionality, durable, portable (integral rechargable battery on many models), but godawful sound compared with normal full range, or now Mackie, etc. powered speakers. ------------------ Neil Reality: A few moments of lucidity surrounded by insanity. It's easiest to find me on Facebook. Neil Bergman Soundclick fntstcsnd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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