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ASCAP, BMI, SESAC, and now IBICC? Is IBICC 'in tune' with the times?

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The caterpillar said, "If you do not think big, there is nothing left but to think small."


NO NO NO This is not the promised 'coming out' post. I presume that it will run no earlier than tomorrow. It was too big for the proper capacity, & had to be broken up. This is Round One, and I've pulled a lot of items from the text and am running them here today.


Next time (other than short posts in the interim) I'm scheduled to formally introduce myself, and our lawyers. I don't say 'my' lawyers, because they're set to work for IBICC. And in effect, unless you (agreeing with what I've heard in person from a lot of square thinking suits & well dressed puddinheads) talk me out of going about it the way I want to, they're also YOUR lawyers. IF you want them. IF you're a creator. For free.


Who the heck is IBICC? Well, who cares what it stands for... (later).

Now WHAT is IBICC? That I'll talk about in a minute. (And the IBICC website is not up yet so don't waste time looking.)


When anybody fashions a money machine, (you know, a business...) there are certain rules of engagement and long cherished ways of going about it. Doesn't matter if it's Lucy's advice booth, or Exxon. Nobody in effect gives the business, or at least the lion's share of it to the lowest echelon. I've heard of employers giving stock to employees and other enviable philanthropist tales, but I'd like to turn loose the greatest giveaway in history.


Here the problem is not giving it away, but getting the recipients to open their glazed eyes and have the good common sense to take it. Let me state my goal, and then we hunker down with some issues.


I want IBICC to give away more cash money than any known philanthropist foundation in the history of this planet.


Back to IBICC. This will in effect be a new 'virtual' PRO. No, not exactly a fourth PRO, but more capable at doing what they do, which is wringing money from one set of hands and giving it to another set. Somebody always pays the piper. And so the PRO money travels way down to the end of the chain of hands to a place where forlornly sit the people who really deserve the loot. The creators.


Now there's not enough room on this server to list all the dirty aspects of what goes on with old and current performance rights issues, nor will I burn your time reviewing it all.


So now some facts. The three existing PRO's (ASCAP, BMI, & SESAC) take in & pay out over a Billion with a B dollars a year. They are wrapped in a cozy flag of respectability riding herd on a system that evolved long ago. (And a lot of people depend on that money for their entire livelihood.) The U. S. LAWS are all worked out propping up the whole deal. OK. We're not (IBICC, that is) even gonna even mess with that. Anybody who wants to start a new authentic PRO is gonna find their butts in a sling. If just anybody could start a PRO, the landscape would be littered with them. That's NOT what we're up to here. But still, if you add up and examine the pocket change that filters down to the creators, you can't help but be dismayed.


I've got an angle. I've got a big angle. (Remember all that tuning weirdness), and this particular angle is what these lawyers are all about. And I want IBICC all wrapped up tight in our own cozy flag of respectability. As a matter of fact, that's already happened.

And our flag IS pretty darn cozy.


But I need everybody to get up to speed on some background. It's boring to some but hang in with me. You need to know this.


One of the most amazing things that came out of this Napster mess was a complete turnaround in the ways songs have traditionally been sent naked into the world. A lot of scared money has been thrown into finding a solution. The end result is that if you own product, you want it under lock and key. I'm on that side. (If you're a thief, the wilpye in crowd already know I hate you.) But no Napster discussion here please. On that, each to his or her own ethics. I'm mentioning this because it plays into the future of recorded music that was decided up on high (by the big 5) & there IS NO TURNING IT BACK. And allelulah to that.


That 'decided on future' is watermarking. Yeah yeah you've all been hearing about watermarking and the initiative to come up with one that works. Well, its a happening thing. If you want a breather, jump over to www.verance.com and learn about a little thing called ((Confirmedia)).

Go ahead, don't be jaded. Take a look.


And one quick aside. PUH-LEASE don't weight us down with a post about how watermarking colors the sound (start your own thread and squabble about it there). I've heard the current state of the end result, and I'm willing to bankroll an A-B shootout to see if you can beat my previously mentioned monkey pushing buttons. You lose, you pay. But even if you were right

(my defense is that the monkey had a bad banana & I'm stickin to it!),

the end result is that the hired techs are (as we speak) still tweaking & improving the process with faster & crenelated embedders to a point where all discussion to the con is ridiculous. (And should some pirate team successfully pull it apart, the techs will keep cranking till they eventually get it past the point of no return.) Remember, the big 5 record companies decreed this into existence. And BIG money (as always) talks very effectively. Bet on the record companies if your betting money matters to you.


Back to Confirmedia. If you write songs & make them happen, you've got to love this flavor of watermarking. What happens? If you were a Company (or individual) that owned product, wouldn't you love to know within 24 hours whenever anybody played your song? Yes, just call up a database (such as IBICC will have), punch in your password and there's a list of every song you have and a downloadable printout of every usage from a radio station, from every television show (yeah Cable especially), and least we forget, from the internet. All from good old watermarking. And although you might not get your performance rights money from your PRO very fast or accurately, the plan is to have IBICC checks flying out the door every two months. (I asked for it to be 6 weeks, but the accountants say no way Jose.)


How about this: If you're with both IBICC & say BMI, (and the printout from IBICC says you had 13,000 plays in a given timeframe) and BMI sends a peanut sized check out to your publisher for that same timeframe. In your anger you just might help start a groundswell to make BMI get their act together & start using watermarking also. (By the way, I'm recommending IBICC checks go out to recipients direct, not through your publisher.

Good idea?)


Yes isn't it funny that the people who most likely should jump all over this, Giant ASCAP & BMI, still stick to their pitiful little sampling projections (& supposed playlists) and continue to predict who's playing your records? Didn't I say the lowly creator gets almost Zap, er, Zip. (So Master Zap, I can see why in spite of all your composing, you're not seeing much money from your PRO. THEY don't give a flying frog about you and the little guys. But at least IBICC will, and Hey, one more friend never hurts.) I just wish the old PRO's would upgrade their methods....


All right, why did the record companies create a technology to track airplay (loudly screaming about the loss of sales revenue) when they don't get a dime from the usual (the web is the exception) broadcasters? Remember, it's the 3 PRO's wrapped up in their flag of respectability who by LAW are in charge of that on your behalf. Why not the net too?

The PR0's opened their sleeping eyeballs too late to stop certain tigers with their big pocketbooks from racing to Congress & getting their own means of extracting money from the broadcasters. (Herein anyone who uses your tunes and should owe you something for it is a broadcaster.)


I do have a late breaking topic to mention. Although Verance had the inside track with IBICC, we (as a company) may be doing business with somebody new. Verance is in the process of being taken over. So although I'd be thrilled to announce in this forum that IBICC has hired Verance to work for us, not to worry. We'll hire the new outfit or one of their (very similar) competitors currently wooing our business. I just wanted to clue everyone in on some points of issue. IBICC will be heavy into watermarking.


Some more IBICC things for review before I leave this topic:

IBICC is going to take in money due to my 'angle' wrapped in powerful laws.

IBICC will not compete at all with the 3 old PRO's. They're still there as they always were to extract money for you for what is called 'performing rights'. (In addition to what you get from IBICC if you're a member.)

IBICC will confer on you a new set of rights. Something called 'endowed rights' derived from a certain would be philanthropist with a going concern.


Now my lawyers (from my big Monday meeting) made me stick a disclaimer in here. That endowed right is not a promise. Why? Because I can still change my feeble old mind. Now I hope you don't think I'm the kind of two-timing crud who would, but that's why I'm here on this forum. After the faithful genies (who I respect) churn this over (in their minds & with their hands & ears) and tell me (hopefully not) what an idiot I am; I may have to rock back on my heels and reconsider if I'm the fool that many on my side of this internet fence already tell me I am for considering this business model. (But I think I'm the fool on the hill..., however I see the sun coming waaaaay up.) There are other more traditional ways to charter IBICC and have it go about its business, but the music creators will inevitably drop back to the short end of the stick again if the usual suspect power brokers are running the ship.


So wait till you hear the angle & the whole deal. You are the first line of inquiry where everyone really determines if I've lost my marbles.

Oh! but not with IBICC, that's very very real. All we're discussing here is who's going to benefit. I'm throwing out a tentative offer, let's see what the tide washes back.

But I've got more (yikes!) to tell you on these matters. This forum allows & maintains clear lines of communication so everyone can chime in. No point in getting wacky with it till it's all out on the table. SOON, SOON. I'm not a tease, and I'm not jerking anyone's chain. I told WF this wasn't a magic trip on mushrooms & I hope he's feeling it even stronger in his bones today. But I can only push so much oatmeal down your throats in one sitting. (No 40 page manifesto today.)


That's it on the issues for the moment. But to understand how my 'angle' came about, you might as well know some personal history.


At an early age, I seemed to hear sounds differently than everyone else. Early on I found that the sound of a tuned piano was somehow ugly. Mind you I wasn't autistic, but it was kinda like when autistic children hear things too loud. My Daddy was an optometrist, & we were able to afford a nice upright.


Once when the piano tuner was going through his motions, I discovered sometimes that the intervals he was moving through were nicer than when he finished. I'd say no, no. Finally he ran me out so he could finish the job. (Now most of you know my ears were following natural science, and NO this is not about me trying to revive just intonation. But at least I can hear and appreciate the interval arguments Robert Rich makes with his synths.) Much as I wanted to (in later years), I could never learn to play those ivories worth a hoot.


Still, I just had to figure out what was wrong with that piannny's sound. Something SUBTLE that only I could hear.


But no, WF and Miroslav heard it too. HMMMMM?


((Alert. By popular request this post has been edited to improve reader speed by removing excessive verbage. Still probably not enough. Oh well!))






This message has been edited by wilpye on 07-07-2001 at 01:39 AM

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>>>The caterpillar said, "If you do not think big, there is nothing left but to think small."<<<


I'm not a smart man, even in my best moments, and

am convinced that anything of intellectual merit

I did have was used and dried up about midway thru

the original thread. As the discussion has taken new twists

and turns I'm really starting to feel "clueless"


I'll be following and staggering along but almost sure

I'll play the role of the "bumpkin" kneeling in a dusty

heap along the road, rubbing his sore head, half wittedly

fallen off the turnip truck before he made it to market.


When it comes to degrees of complication, even the most innovative

and groundbreaking ideas, if had to be interpretated on too many

levels can seem like nothing more than a walk down mushroom row

to a simple thinker such as I.


But... my mental defiency... my loss....


I'll be the one staggering http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gifhttp://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gifhttp://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif






William F. Turner



William F. Turner




Sometimes the truth is rude...

tough shit... get used to it.

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Jezus I hope not!


Hurt my tired old head just reading the

intro on that one. There's some things my simple redneck

mind don't even need to know about... ie, anything that

even hints of the term ions probably fits that category

for me http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif





William F. Turner



William F. Turner




Sometimes the truth is rude...

tough shit... get used to it.

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Man I only ordered toast & coffee...what the hell you servin' me up a 5 course meal for???


OK...let's all stop holding our collective breath and let out a nice big S-I-I-I-G-H...there now I feel better...that'l teach me to have great expectations...



miroslav - miroslavmusic.com


"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."

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My name is T. Wilfred Pye. I'm not posting my e-mail address,but if anyone

feels the need to communicate with me beyond this thread, Mr. Kudyba of

this forum is hereby authorized to give it to you if you ask him. Send a

message or leave a phone number and I will respond at the first opportunity.


The main crux of what this thread contemplates will deal with something

called "Appreciable Artistic Merit". Later in this post I will explain the

relevance. First, a little more history.


My failure to learn to play the traditional piano stifled me, and over

a long period of time I devised a fingerkey structure that I patented.

Please stay with the thread, but for those who care to read about it,

this will take you to this patent at your leisure. It has nothing to do

with IBICC, though.


See this URL


(If you have problems due to your software, go to www.uspto.gov

and look up patent #5,396,023)


With an attorney, the Hon. Robert K. Dawson (who I will introduce

formally later), fresh out of working for the Reagan Administration,

I met in June 1989 with the President of Yamaha for a meeting to

discuss the merits and future of this technology. Bottom line, he

advised me to expose it to consumers and gauge the reaction. In

the early to mid 90's I showed a final version around as the

Bilt 4 Zpeed keyboard. The reaction: People who could already play

showed small inclination to change. HMMM No surprises there.


So I didn't pursue it as a commercial venture after my market

research was all in. (By the way, Steve Oppenheimer of EM mag

hosted me one afternoon & blew me away with his kindness &

wisdom. Thanx, Steve.) Enough of the keyboard story.


With regards to tuning, (before and during the keyboard project)

for many years I had chased after an elusive system I kept hearing

knocking at the back of my mind. I intended it as nothing spectacular.

As with many things, it turned out to be rather simple when I finally

uncovered the science holding it together. Something a frequency

geek like me might write home about, but not too many others.


Well I had inadvertently tripped into the twilight zone with a subject I

knew nothing about at the time. As was pointed out to me by patent

attorneys who knew their stuff, this patent did something remarkable!

As a matter of fact, it broke entirely new legal grounds through a

loophole that the mighty laws that covered the PRO's had not blocked,

nor would ever block.


The tuning itself was a hybrid system existing in the arena between

Equal temperament and the dreaded just intonation mentioned earlier.

I secured a deep and far-reaching patent describing instruments that

could produce it, including orchestra instruments (the French Horn

rocks!). When you have time and if I can't talk you out of it, this one

is found at:


Another URL


Again look up patent #6,093,879 if you have a problem. Examining the drawings is essential to understanding it. (Seriously, Fig. 1 is the only one to try to grasp if you must....) Any problems viewing or

downloading, you should come online & someone will hopefully walk

you through this. I've never gotten PIX from the patent office website,

but (unless they've changed it) I hear that it requires out of date

software downloads to view them. Maybe only for the Mac.


CAUTION: I repeat, do not bog down and try to read this 40 page

monster (you too WF). It's bizarre and will destroy your equilibrium.

This is not going to help you have good warm fuzzy feelings about

IBICC. Only when I can show you a real instrument will you be clued in.

That's not today.


Everyone should concentrate on the concept of making multitracks

with the instruments you know & love & let the engineers punch in

AutoTune and convert your material to the desired intonation. You

know, like adding an aphex or more echo or something. Here's that

guitarist Miroslav mentioned earlier:


"well dude, sure, I laid down some hot licks for your tuneBUT psssst

shhhhdo you have one of those BYTONE boxes.cuz I don't have

wilpye's real guitara duhyuk yuk yuk."


This patent gave rise to a lot of ongoing patents that themselves will

issue in due course. (That's why we've waited to get IBICC going till

now.) A few of you technogeeks like me may find more things to

patent & pile on top of the mother patent. Good luck. But inventors

be advised that both the Keyboard and Guitars shown have been

superseded by space-age models eventually to be revealed to the

public downstream. None of that matters now.


OK, finally let's get down to the business at hand. The name on the

patent is bicameral, but the name chosen for public reference is

BYTONE INTONATION . We are trademarking it as two words, but

it is designed to become a common lingo identifier for general usage

when referred to only as Bytone. Bytone(.org, not up yet) will become

the public clearinghouse for all things relating to teaching, etc.


This forum is certainly not intended for long winded background, but you

need to have the full story. I'm here online to get help (as I've often

repeated). Whew! Where next?


Oh, the angle. The patent covers not only the instruments that produce

a unique collection of tones, but the collection of tones themselves (as

seen in claim 20). A CIP (a daughter patent) was filed (which has

cleared its hurdles but has not yet issued) that further extensively

covers the broadcasting of these unique soundwaves, such that the

patents allow the collection of a royalty from broadcasters who utilize

the covered performances.


In my fable to Master Zap, unfortunately there was a lot of distracting

imagery. One said the rights died when I did, but they actually die

when the patent dies. Which is in the year 2020. Till then, it and

other succeeding patents can do a lot of financial good for a lot of

people and hopefully still retain its "Appreciable Artistic Merit" for a long

time after that. Also that 'US citizen only' bit is not correct. If you're

from Timbuktu and you've got a Bytone song playing in the states,

you too can & should be getting your compensation.


"How hard is it to play?" As firmly established in the tuning thread,

whether you're an orchestra doing 'The 9th', or a small garage

band doing your thing: The final masters can be tuned (everything

but the drums) by breaking the polyphonic instruments into mono

signals that AutoTune type programs can deal with long after the

musicians have generated the music and gone home. My personal

position is that artistic intent is preserved after switching from E. T.

to Bytone. But the converted tracks clearly sound different. Eventually

IBICC will have an A-B line-up of CD's with a range of works before &

after conversion as propaganda for our initiatives. Newcomers can

listen & make up their own mind. We will want everyone to consider

the benefits of adopting Bytone as their choice of an intonation system

rather than equal temperament.


Of course for purists, actual instruments that really produce the

Bytone sounds will eventually become commonplace. Just because

they're not here now, don't think they're not coming. But these

dedicated instruments by their nature are harder to play than those

designed to generate equal temperament. It doesn't take a musician's

musician to master them. We're not pushing 'easy' here. The

opportunity is in taking your musicianship to a higher plateau. But

hey, native Bytone instruments are not THAT hard.


And musicians don't really have to give up their E. T. instruments

to play Bytone (as we established in the 1st thread). So Miroslav,

that last sentence holds the answer to your now famous, 'Why?'

We can't put the cart before the donkey. First, players will have to

appreciate the music, and only then will they want to go to the

woodshed to master it. I wonder who will be the first artist in history

to hit #1 using Bytone?


What percentage of penetration of existing recorded output becomes

Bytone product is up to the public, and will only be decided as this

whole thing plays out under its own momentum. There will be

detractors and fans. We've all been there. I'm a frontline evangelist,

but others will follow. This has years to gain momentum, or it can

happen quicker. Today there's a little snowball starting down the mountain.


At this time I am encouraging you to stop and meet IBICC's (when

chartered) lead attorney, the Hon. Robert K. Dawson. As I mentioned,

if IBICC is to truly serve your needs, it requires one of the most

outstanding legal teams that could be assembled. In a sense if you're

with us, he's your lawyer too. Check him out and his firm and then

return to this forum, please:




So who's going to pay out revenues to IBICC? Let's discuss...

Under a microscope, the broadcasters turn out to be husbands and

wives with families of their own. They are not evil opponents in a war.

They want to do good by their own life standards and meet their own

commitments to being quality human beings. As an exploratory

expedition, we have talked to a few select top level executives

among broadcasters, and they are not adverse to upping the money

they pay out if Bytone contributes to "Appreciable Artistic Merit".

There it is again.


Let's say it another way, if this is just a scheme to pull more money

out of their hides, there just might be a war. BUT... if they come

to agree that they are serving the public need by broadcasting a

finer grade of product, as it were, then at the proper time IBICC

and the representatives of the broadcasters will sit down and work

out a mutually beneficial plan to honor their legal obligation to pay

performance royalties to IBICC members.


Our team will present the IBICC position, they will give theirs, and

in the end agreement will be reached, papers will be signed, lawyers

will go home. Another day, another dollar. Another negotiated

settlement. This is civilized business and it goes on all over the

planet every day. The extent of the results to IBICC members is

thus presently unclear. Nobody knows today how much your IBICC

payout will be until all the ducks are in a row. It won't be chicken feed.


Report cards from independent frontline investigators will help to

annoint Bytone as having "Appreciable Artistic Merit". As with any

new concept, each of you can ultimately decide whether this fits

into your future. Till the reviews and tire kicking of the Bytone scales

are in from ears-on and hands-on explorers, everything is nebulous.

"How the heck does it sound?" Well, I love it, but I'm biased.


I need advice from you braver guys, (Darn it Zap, you promised!)

Anybody trying to work off the patent will be advised to study the

scale in patent drawing #1. Come online and ask me questions and

we'll work through it together. Make a little Bytone music. On this

particular issue, yours are the voices that count. (As opposed to,

"I think it can't sound groovy, therefore it doesn't")


If you have a tunable synth with a user scale of 1 cent resolution

(like most Korg's) dial up C= 0 (cents), C#=+2 D=+4, D#= -6,

E=-4, F=-2, and the same thing for F#=0, G=+2, G#=+4, A=-6,

A#=-4, B=-2 As long as you don't change chords, this chromatic

scale is complete for tonics C or F#. In the patent, this is what is

called the 'straight major scale'. It sings...


Once again, I am not trying to confuse anybody, but when you need

to play a minor chord that also kills, the AutoTune will convert your

indicated passage to this scale, called the tall minor: C= 0 (cents),

C#=+2 D=+4, D#= +6, E=+8, F=-2, and exactly the same

progression F#=0, G=+2, G#=+4, A=+6, A#=+8, B=-2


Simple Dimple. At the conversion mix session, all major chords are

tweaked to the straight major scale, & minor chord voicings are

treated with the tall minor scale. Forget the patent. That's all you

need to know.


In the real world, if you try this on a Korg or whatever, when you

change chords to something else other than tonic C or tonic F#,

some process or method must correct a few notes, or some pitches

will go out of tune (& we can't have that).


WF & Miroslav, please notice that the major third is 396 cents, which

is 4 cents flat to E. T. theory. Groovy minds hit their sweet spots

together. I was hearing this Bytone major third when I was 7 years

old. And now there's an entire tuning system built around it.

WF, with this, every major third you hit on your guitar will sound

equally resonant to that nifty E chord I know you and Miroslav say

you already dig. I've just souped up the engine and given you

chrome hubcaps with the rest of the other pitches.....


Other than user reports from the real world out there, let's ask

some organizational questions about IBICC itself. (For this part,

pretend you're onboard even if you have reservations.)


Who should get the payout? Only songwriters? How about giving

producers 20% of the payout? If an orchestra piece (for example)

is by a long dead maestro, who gets the payout? The owners

of the performance? And speaking of owners of performance,

should you be able to 'sell' your IBICC rights to a third party?

We could forbid that. (Hard, but yes there are ways to protect

songwriters from getting drunk & signing it all away.) And so on.


I sure prefer good reviews, but if you've got negatives, lay 'em

on us. I must be leaving out a lot of possible twists & turns that

committed brains can expose to the forum.


You surely are living up to the caterpillar's wisdom if you

keep thinking big. I can't thank enough the people who have

stayed with these massive posts & are still here with us now.


This last bit is special for you, WFTurner. (Forgive me. I couldn't

listen to your wonder of a dream song just yet cause I'm up to

my neck in alligators and have never downloaded an MP3

in my life.)


>>>As the discussion has taken new twists and turns I'm really

starting to feel "clueless" I'll be following and staggering along <<<


No you won't. The best 'clue' I can give you (so you won't be

clueless) is this: One day (unless the Lord steps in) I'm gonna

roar out of the sky in a big metal bird & I'm coming special to your

place. And I'm gonna put a guitar in your hands unlike anything

you've ever seen or heard. (No, not like what's in the patent.).

And by gosh, after an hour or so I just bet you'll agree it will have

more sweet spots that that mythical lady you're always talking

about. When you change chords, the scales will change with you.

You'll understand how it works really quickly. Anyway, then I'll roar

back into the sky & I'll be gone, but the guitar will still be there

with you (if you don't throw me & it out first.)


And that won't be the fourth promise I've ever broken either.

Adios for now you ole thinker... Wil



This message has been edited by wilpye on 06-14-2001 at 01:50 PM

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OK...for starters...can you edit your post so that it dosen't run into the next county...kinda' hard to read.


It is the hyperlinks that are causing the problem...just do a hard line break somewhere in the middle of each hyperlink...it won't mess it up, but it will narrow the whole post down

miroslav - miroslavmusic.com


"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."

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>>CAUTION: I repeat, do not bog down and try to read this

40 page monster (you too WF).<<


I got that puppy sitting here on my desk top and no I ain't

even gonna try to pretend I'm gonna be able to digest it

all quickly, but have a knack for sifting large amounts of

info and getting what I need for the moment, a required

skill in the simple man's survival in the not so simple



I told ya.. you deliver it and I'll be compelled to understand it

and by golly I will too. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif

I got some tricks I use in the privacy of

my personal recording environment and the

reasons why never mattered, but you're theories will perhaps have me investigating

them more closely.


God pity my lil old head.



William F. Turner




This message has been edited by WFTurner on 06-14-2001 at 01:17 PM

William F. Turner




Sometimes the truth is rude...

tough shit... get used to it.

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See what I mean, mention just intonation & everyone heads for the exits.


At least a lot was accomplished with the 1st thread, but Miroslav is looking more & more like a serious prophet. Too much on the plate... And I tried so hard to keep it simple... Imagine how immense these posts would have been if I HADN'T tried.


Oh well, maybe things will pick up. It takes a while to consume a 5 course meal after all.


I guess it's really gonna take a #1 recording to get everyone back. Whatever floats the boat. Backstreet Boys, you WERE following this thread, right?


By the way, for the record I forgot to mention IBICC stands for International Bytone Intonation Copyright Commission.


WF, ohhhhh I give up. Read the blinkin thing.....

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Chris, I'm taking that as a compliment. I'll send my dealer around to your back alley ASAP.


((Breaking News)) I must be getting results... N-SYNC just went on MTV to announce "We can sing in Bytone better asleep than those wussy Backstreet Boys can awake!"


Reliable sources confirm The B-Boys have just hastily ordered five MORE AutoTune programs....

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Hi guys


Sorry I've been away elsewhere.


WilPye; I figured your system was something like this, which was the whole point of the ordeal; You "can't" tune a guitar so that it plays one way in one chord, and another way in another, which you would need. I was gonna get to that but "Real Life" interveaned.


Unfortunately, for me, I am an "Old Gear" geek. That means, that I own synthesizers who don't really much lend themselves to these issues. Like the Korg Mono/Poly isn't even tuning accurate *at all* within your tolerances. Breath in it's general direction and it's off 10 cents http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif (And thats not the price, they were only made in 10,000 copies ever and is worth more than their weight in gold, at least IMHO).


But the toys I do have that can handle this, I'll gladly tinker with it. Sounds fun.


But I bet that 85% of my equipment couldn't be taught to do this no matter what. Unless you build that theoretical polyphonic autotune that also handles *way out there* wavefoms. (I only deal in "way out there" waveforms http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif )


Btw, totally unrelated, but I also have a patent. So dont think you're hip just coz you have patents. *just kidding*



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Zap! My man! I was starting to think I wasn't going to hear from you again. No more of that, please.

>>>So dont think you're hip just coz you have patents<<<


I know you're kiddin', what I really think is it's UN-hip NOT to have patents. A patent is kinda like a lawyer. But it even protects you when you're not talking to it. A copyright on your songs is no more than a 'little patent' itself.


One of my messages to this forum is never forget to have good legal help. Never.


Curve Dominant >>>This guy is a friggin' scream, man.<<<


It seems you like short posts, and I hate to dissapoint. Reading this made me flash back to the funeral of a black man I knew when I was a youth called 'Quaint' Henry. I was rather surprised when they gently laid him in the ground to discover that his name was actually reversed; Henry Quaints. Some caring lady from his church had painted his name and dates real nice on his wooden headboard. I was the only white person there, and nobody minded that as we lifted our voices and sent him off to the strain of "Amazing Grace". Through my teenage years every so often in summer I'd take him a few dandelions and other wildflowers I rounded up.


Years before Quaint Henry always maintained a little patch of earth by his shack where he grew watermelons and strawberries and such. One day I came crying down the dirt road and he called me over to share some watermelon. When he fished out of me the whole story of what some mean boy had done, he threw his head back and said "Why Wilfred, you should be DEEE- lighted. Yes, you should, DEEE-lighted. That boy just gave you the most valuable thing he could give." And I sniffled a little more and asked "What?" He said,"Why he done give you the truth. This is a world where folks lie to your face, or mebbe even smile while they ruin your life. They'll tell you anything you want to hear if its worth a nickel to 'em. But when you get the truth, you got to be DEEE-lighted." That dried me up. So I went on as usual and helped him hoe a little, but I never forgot the message.


Which brings us back to you. You dodge around these forums bringing wit and wisdom to a lot of people. I've enjoyed a lot of your funny posts.

I remember how nice you threw out to me that warm welcome in our first encounter. I'm sure you meant every word of it at the time.

But now, in memory of Quaint Henry, I'm going to ask you to give me something valuable. Something I need. The truth.


In other words please stop talking 'over my head' and bring it down to eye level. Tell me exactly why, and fill in with all the detail you care to pile on, why I'm such a scream.


I'm not going to ask, "Was it this I said?" or "that I did?" I've tried to lay out what I'd like to do with the remaining years of my life, something a blind man could see means a lot to me.

"I haven't got all the answers" is a broken refrain from me. This isn't a plea for mercy. I've got tough skin. Just tell me straight up what's wrong with my ideas or how I could better reach for my goals. I'm not to crochity to learn. (Teach me something new about human nature though, and I might be surprised.)


Are one liners about as far as you can go? Or have you got it in you to really spill your guts?




This message has been edited by wilpye on 06-15-2001 at 06:06 AM

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Mr wilpye:


I actually, as a I sat and puttered in my lil garden

yesterday evening mulled some of this over in my head.

I presently, with what I'm sure is just a basic overview

of the theory you represent do have a couple concerns,

questions but I want to mull them and your patent over awhile

further, making sure my concerns are authentic.


Right off the top of my head I can say I've come to two

conclusions, though more understanding of your principles

may change my view:


1. Its gonna take very smart ( ie... software driven?) instruments

to make music in your proposed Bytonal method.


2. It's gonna take very smart software with lots of option and more

importantly maybe very smart people running the software to successfully

convert existing work and it's various tracks to your Bytonal method.


The questions I wanna ask will support my conclusions but I really want

to mull it all over so I ask them in just the right way.


It'll take a day or two or maybe three... the lil lady's on vacation

this week and it's been hard to get time to myself this week... that's

actually a good thing http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif






William F. Turner



William F. Turner




Sometimes the truth is rude...

tough shit... get used to it.

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1st, just so you dont think I'm bulshitting you, patent I present #6, 046,759 , and yeah, they messed up my name, Håkan Andersson in the online version. The brass and Mahogny plaque w. the patent on looks ok tho. (Yes, I have one!) http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif




Just for your info, I went to one of my synths, and just for the hell of it changed it from "Equal tempered" to "C Just Intonation", and played a C major chord.


Y'know what. To my ears it sounded out of tune. Interesting, no? Yes it was "purer", but we are so trained to hear equal temperement that we perceive anything else as wrong.



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WF. Actually, BEFORE the 1st thread, I felt the same way. To deconstruct a guitar track was going to take massive R & D, but before I committed the funds and muscle to get it rolling I got the brainstorm to come on this forum. What a darn good thing I did! Now I know better. As long as new material is being recorded and the guitarist has 6 outputs to the multitracks (with the Fanbox or modified lightwave pickups) there's no hassle whatsoever. Each string is converted later to Bytone and that's a breeze for today's quality engineer. He can be a trainee & still get it right every time.


Now for dedicated guitars (They sound incredible!) able to generate Bytone direct; you wonder:


>>>Its gonna take very smart (ie... software driven?) instruments<<<


To a play 'native' Bytone guitar takes no software at all. Just a player who knows a few rules and isn't too drunk... (I guess my projected market just went down!) At this stage these guitars are still in the prototype stage. Since a guitar at any given moment can only provide 12 pitches per octave (unless you have frets all over the dang place), the working models have to be able to switch out fret values, as is discussed in the patent. My new space-age models easily top what is revealed in the patent. You'll hopefully have the honor of seeing one before any other member of this esteemed panel. The proof is in the pudding (hype or reality), you decide.


Because a native Bytone keyboard has enough fingerkeys per octave to handle the (over 12 per octave) requirements, 'they' are what is really a snap to play. Every chord voicing is the same when chords change. COWABONGA! For keyboardists, it's easier to play a Bytone instrument than the old black & whites, where each of the 12 chord families has a different fingering. Once again, the keyboard in the patent is NOT what will be marketed downstream.


>>>very smart people running the software to successfully convert existing work<<<


Nope, WF the good news coming out of thread one is that if we can get those amazing pick-ups cranked up to do what is required, as fantasticsound pointed out with the rap about daughterboards (remember the bit about bringing the six minicomputer AutoTune programs to the guitar?) the guitarist should be able to churn out Bytone in real time! With this plan, the engineer doesn't even have to convert the sound at all. Wow! That really is fantastic sound.... (By the way, I hope he comes back online soon with a few more observations. We miss you fella.)


So WF, I'm really on cloud 9. This forum was been such a benefit to me with thread one that I thought I'd throw out what was going on with my hopes for the future of Bytone (in the business sense) and see if any more input could be gleaned from the forum. Like Miroslav said, it's a five course meal.


Oh well, nothing ventured, nothing gained. Technical talk yes, nebulous PRO models no. I guess most of the younger guys just want to rock & roll & not talk business 101. Nothing wrong with that. But at least this current thread will stand as a record of what I intend to do. Nobody came online to tell me why IBICC is doomed to failure. I sure hope it goes gangbusters!


WF, you keep mullin it over. Your input is valuable to me. You're the man in the arena (not in the bleachers wishing) and it's a fine thing to be able to communicate with you.


Zap. I agree. That 386 just intonation major third is too 'deep'. Those old stock C major just intonation scales are never gonna cut it. The Bytone scale is way closer to equal temperament than just intonation. The lowered 396 cent major third rules! WF & Miroslav told me so before they either knew what was going on. (Which is partially why I kept everyone in the dark so long, about "why?".)


And now, I'll try & look up your patent, and keep my thoughts on it private. (Unless you invite my comments.)


I'm glad I didn't promise to go visiting YOU. Sounds like it'd be a bon voyage to Europe. More later...



This message has been edited by wilpye on 06-15-2001 at 02:29 PM


This message has been edited by wilpye on 06-16-2001 at 02:30 AM

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Originally posted by wilpye:

Now for dedicated guitars (They sound incredible!) able to generate Bytone direct... ...At this stage these guitars are still in the prototype stage.... ...My new space-age models easily top what is revealed in the patent. You'll hopefully have the honor of seeing one before any other member of this esteemed panel...


I'd certainly be interested in seeing the working model when it's available!


Nope, WF the good news coming out of thread one is that if we can get those amazing pick-ups cranked up to do what is required, as fantasticsound pointed out with the rap about daughterboards (remember the bit about bringing the six minicomputer AutoTune programs to the guitar?) the guitarist should be able to churn out Bytone in real time! With this plan, the engineer doesn't even have to convert the sound at all. Wow! That really is fantastic sound.... (By the way, I hope he comes back online soon with a few more observations. We miss you fella.)


I, too, have been busy in the physical world. My daughter and I have strep, and for some reason my lower back feels like the San Andreus fault in full earthquake. Not good. My parents were here, too. Sorry I haven't been able to post.


I've read the thread, but, I'll have to comment later.






Reality: A few moments of lucidity surrounded by insanity.

It's easiest to find me on Facebook. Neil Bergman




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Fantasticsound. Not to worry. You've earned one of the 1st peeks. I won't forget you. These instruments are not vaporware. However, I am restricted by the usual intellectual property law particulars as the protection for the newer models has not currently issued.


Anyway, there is no point rushing these up. Appreciation of the tuning system as desirable and useful must come 1st. Also until the watermarking issues are finalized and the process is available to the public IBICC cannot begin collecting revenue for the members. The timeframe for all this is coming into focus, but it is many months away. I would keep watching the Verance website for advance notice. When the ((Confirmedia)) version 1.0 is happening, we (IBICC) expect to be ready. (Please note SESAC will be using confirmedia also.)


Headquarters? Probably Nashville, but Atlanta may get us.


Kris asks >>>when can we hear a comparison say between an equal temperment C major chord and a bytone C major chord?<<<


Right now, Kris. Rather than MP3's, if you have a guitar handy quickly study the sound the chime makes when you tap off the high E string at the 'B' fret. You will be hearing a perfect 5th (702 cents) as the overtone is being amplified. Now as it is dying down press the string to the fret and strike the B pitch (700 cents). Notice that the fretted sound is a 'little off' to the chime of the +2 overtone. Which one do you think sounds prettier? It is accepted by every sound sampling I know of that the overtone will win in a fair shootout.


Now hear the Bytone major chord. With any decent tuner at all make sure the three E pitches of an open E chord are perfectly at '0' on the meter. Fret the D string at the second fret as you tune to make sure it is in tune to the high & low E strings.


Next you should tune the B string and the A string both +2 cents (sharp). Once again as you tune the A string make sure you are fretting it at the second fret so it will be perfectly in tune with the B string. Now there's one string to go.


Do as WF and Miroslav say they do in actual practice: Use the meter and tune the G string down -4 cents (flat). Fret it at the 1st fret to make sure as you tune it that the audible G# pitch is down the required 4 cents.


You asked to hear the Bytone C major chord, but for this easy example I gave you instructions for an open E chord. HIT IT! You are now experiencing the Bytone major triad. Experiment with bringing it back up to 0 cents and A-B the difference.


To hear the tall minor all you need to do is tune the open G string up +6 cents (sharp). Listen as you strike the E minor chord. You are now experiencing the Bytone minor third. When you make records with Bytone, every last major & minor chord will sound this pretty. It's not 'prissy' pretty. It's what I call 'in tune'. I hope my tastes don't differ from yours, but only you can say.


Trust this test and not some MP3. No one can hoodwink you. Trust your own ears. I'd love for you to report back in to the forum.


Anyone else care to join in?



This message has been edited by wilpye on 06-15-2001 at 11:29 PM

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Master Zap... I saw your post >>>Iuyve been drinkeen alkohul!<<<

& be sure I got the pun.


However, I said my joke about guitarists. Rest assured keyboardists may play the Bytone keyboard as long as they manage to stay seated. Who can tell when a keyboardist is drunk anyway just by listening?

Ha Ha


I brought my wife to the computer to see you when I visited your website. She said "Oh my, with a name like Zap I thought he would look like Clark Gable.., tall, swarthy, and with a pin-stripe mustache." On finding out you were in Sweden where her people descend from, she slid into coaxing mode.. "You know he surely has contributed to these threads, maybe WE should take him one of those silly complementary keyboards I'm sure you'll be giving away. Ahhh Sweden."


I instantly spoke up on your behalf, "Tootsie, this guy only likes 'way out there' waveforms." She straightened up & walked quickly away.


Whew that was close!


This message has been edited by wilpye on 06-16-2001 at 03:19 AM

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Pun, what pun?




Sorry I had been drinking a bit much last night. Note to self - stay away from MusicPlayer.com while holding alcoholic beverages in your hands.


If there was a pun in there it was due to fumbly fingers while holdign a drink. Sorry guys.


Hmm. Was it any fun? I have to go and see if I can understand myself today.


Hmm, whos got an aspirin?



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Oh by the way - I also have an uncanny fondness for pure sinewaves. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif


But seriously, a lot of my sounds are built from heavily detuned sawtooth waves and then filtered. I do not know how much bytone intonation would add to *those* type of sounds whence they consists of a bunch of sub-waveforms each detuned a bucket of cents hither and yon.


Last night (BEFORE the drinks) I was studing the manual of some of my toys to see how to make your own intonation tables. Seems my Ensoniq TS-12 can, not sure about the Kurzweil tho, but quite probably it can. But can they be changed in the middle - dont know.


"Curiouser and Curiouser" - Alice





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Zap. Here's the deal. No matter how you detune a particular patch to give it a thick swarmy sound, there is always a fundamental the 'complications' are wedded to. I have used the prototypes to control very processed 'new age' pads as thick as those in the opening sequence to your website. No probleemo... I speak with authority. Your music can be put into Bytone. Remember, just because your music is detuned with equal T. as the reference, don't think it can't be detuned with Bytone as the reference.


Jiminy cricket man, they tell me that your Kurzweil 2500RS is one of the finest keyboards on the planet for user tunings. I've never worked with them (as I am a Korg fan). Consult that huge manual and plug in those settings I gave. You'll get it. I don't know what you mean

>>> But can they be changed in the middle?<<<


Ask that question again with new words. (By the way, something else my wife was wondering, "Why is Zap's English so good?")


And now it's daylight in Sweden. What a trippy world we live in.

A big old ball !


This message has been edited by wilpye on 06-16-2001 at 04:03 AM

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The "change in the middle" was meaning that I need two tunings, one for the minors and one for the majors... or somesuch I understood, or didnt I? http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif


Daylight in Sweden is glorious! Where I am (100km due west Stockholm), sunset is around 11.00 PM and sunrise around 3.30AM, but with the lengthy dusk and dawn, well, we'll be lucky if we have maybe 2 hours a night which could with best intentions be labeled as "dark" http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif


Okay so a massive detuned patch can be bytoned. But a chord? In absense of the mythological box of previous thread, that means I would have to record every note separately, i.e. turn what once was a polyphonic thingy into a set of n monophonic thingys. Hmm.


Given that I can hear the difference between 3 sawtooth waves that goes through one resonant lowpass filter, and 3 sawtooth waves that goes through three separate resonant lowpass filters only to be combined later - something which in *theory* should yeild the same result - and preffer the former, there can still be troubles w. implementing this on all my toys.


But I'll tinker with the Kurzweil and the Ensoniq TS-12 they are up to it forsure. I just need a little time to find time to have time w. it http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif


And the english... thats easy. Sweden is too small a country to dub our TV shows (except for children) and we get a LOT of US TV shows, so already in first grade in school I knew some english... all with a John Wayne accent http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif




This message has been edited by Master Zap on 06-16-2001 at 12:55 PM

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((Alert! Alert! The following is not for general readers. If you want Bytone music, you will play your equal temperament instruments as always and have magic boxes convert your E. T. tracks to Bytone. No hassles, great results. For dedicated techs who want to explore immediate ways to create Bytone music, the following is for you.))


Special to Zap. Of course! I should have realized you meant the TWO scales. That is why it's called BY-TONE. In actuality, for a given pair of tonics such as C & F#, the instrument must provide '16 pitches per octave' minimum so that both scales are feasible.


With a native Bytone, THERE THEY ARE right in front of you. The native Bytone has two MIDI outs. One triggers a synth or module with 12 pitches tuned a certain way, and the other MIDI out goes to a duplicate synth or module. (It's expensive having two modules, but it allows realtime performance by a live human.)


With a regular black & white keyboard (with only 12 pitches per octave) you have to be creative! (Realtime performance doesn't work without serious modifications as are discussed in the patent.)


Here's a solution we've been using for years (Study Fig. 1 of my Patent if necessary.):


In our sound labs we usually employ MIDI files to play synth parts. Lets keep it simple & discuss a three chord song (C, F, & G).


((I'm not going to attempt to explain how your Kurzweil CAN (yes!) become a 16 pitch (or more) per octave instrument. It has powerful methods of doing this)) Rather let's just use some tricks and work with a synth or module that only provides 12 user defined pitches per octave.


As long as the 1st C chord measures are going on, there are generally no bad 'wolf' intervals. (the ONLY 2 exceptions: 204 cents (if sounding) desperately wants to combine with 906, not the 894 provided by the straight major, likewise the 'reflective pitch' 804 cents likes to combine with 306, not the 294 supplied with the straight major.)


Why is this not a problem? Because if you are playing a C tonic and want to simultaneously introduce a D 204 and an A 894 (which is a wolf combination), you are NO LONGER playing a C chord. To a tracking AutoTune program with a computer brain guiding it, it 'knows' you have changed chords to a D. And it knows that the D chord uses 906 cents, so the switch is instantly made and everything sounds great.


A human using foresight must deal with this wolf thing. What you can do is create two different sets of tracks within a MIDI file (with both sets sounding pitches from one particular song). The great majority of the note-events carried by the MIDI file are left alone as they are correct to the initial 12 pitches usually representing the 'C' straight major scale. By knowing the wolf problems, if a 906 is called for (say when you switch to a G chord voicing): Take that 'A' MIDI note out & put it in a second synchronized MIDI track identical to the first MIDI track, but without all the 12 original straight C pitches. (In other words, all 'A' MIDI notes in the first track should play at 894, and all 'A' MIDI notes in the second wolf track should play at 906.) Go thru all the chord changes & find the would-be wolves & also move them to their own wolf MIDI tracks.


So there will be two bass tracks, one for most of the basic pitches, and one to sound the wolf events. In the same way all other initial tracks are separated (except drums). Once you know how to identify a wolf combination, this is a snap to do. My hypersensitive ears -because of my affliction- can listen to a song & pick out the wolves like lightning! But if you know the simple rules (as a computer is programmed to do) it is not a too tedious a task. ((Eventually there will be predictive MIDI programs that will sift through a typical chromatic 12 pitch MIDI file and split each instrument track into two (or even three for a complicated composition) tracks of 'enharmonic' pitches instantly. A nice day that will be...))


Anyway, play the big original MIDI file thru your synth & capture it as a stereo file on say a digital multitrack. Retune you synths to now generate the correct pitches for the extracted MIDI note-ons, and replay these twin track (no longer wolf) pitches thru your synths and record them as an in sync pass on your multitrack (also as a stereo file). Mix the two separate stereo tracks (four) down to two and you have a song in Bytone.

All Right!....


Get it? The 1st original tracks are dedicated to trigger a certain set of 12 cent values, and the second extracted MIDI tracks can trigger as many as 12 more totally different cent values. Works like a charm.


This message has been edited by wilpye on 06-17-2001 at 04:09 PM

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Mr. Wil...


Whatever you do, don't forget to enter your name and password before writing one of those lo-ooong posts. Double, no, triple check, even. This message board will send your prose off to the Bermuda Triangle if you do forget...and after typing a heee-YOOOGE post, it would be disastrous.


Just a word of caution from someone who's been there...

"Cisco Kid, was a friend of mine"
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