A few good verbs.

[miroslav]

Play...record...mix...

 

Ooops! Wrong kind of verbs.

 

I meant REverbs.

 

OK...all you fat-wallet types...no need to tell me about the great high-ticket stuff...I know it exists. I specifically want a quick poll on three mid-priced units.

 

Roland SRV3030D - $300

Lexicon MXP500 - $400

TC Electronic M1 - $500

 

These are the prices I can get. All three are 24bit machines with digital I/O. The low price on the Roland is a close-out price...this machine listed for about $1000 and originally sold for about $600-$700.

 

So...from these three ONLY...do I play it smart/frugal and go for the $300 Roland laughing all the way, cuz I save about $300-$400 off the original price? Or do the Lexicon and TC sound/have...THAT MUCH MORE...to warrant the extra $100-$200 respectively?

 

I get the feeling the TC is the "brand-name flavor of the year"...seems anything they make is being grabbed up quickly. While the Lexicon falls back on it's "Lexicon sound". Both are probably great units, but Roland has also had a pretty good stake in reverb and 3D sound technology...so I'm sure their unit ain't too shabby.

 

The Roland unit is not going to be available much longer (close-out)...I wonder what Roland is coming out with as a replacement?

 

Give me some viewsmi compadres...

 

 

This message has been edited by miroslav on 06-12-2001 at 10:35 AM

[miroslav]

HEY...just got another $25 off of the Roland SRV3030D.

That's $275 for a True Stereo 24 bit reverb with SPIDF digital I/O!!!

 

So anyone got any views on the three units above? Would like to decide/buy something soon (maybe today)...at least before the Roland unit dissappears.

 

gracias!

[strat0124]

Mine is an old 256XL by Digitech......probably get one for a hundred or so at Daddy's Junky Music. Excellent verb on the cheap.

[seclusion]

Hey dude..

For that price I'd get em both..

The roland and the lexi...

Don't know much bout the TC..

I have a pcm 91 and an mpx1 love em both..

Brian

[atomicdog]

'Tween the three of them, the Roland gets my vote. Can't beat it at that price! I'm a huge fan of TC, especially the M3k. But I've not had an opportunity to use the M1. As far as the lexicon goes, I like it but, its not one of my favorites.

[atomicdog]

'Tween the three of them, the Roland gets my vote. Can't beat it at that price! I'm a huge fan of TC, especially the M3k. But I've not had an opportunity to use the M1. As far as the lexicon goes, I like it but, its not one of my favorites.

[miroslav]

WOW atomicdog...that's some serious delay for a double post! Over an hour...I guess the srevers are suffering from latency problems...hahaha.

 

Anyway...almost time for close of business...I'm probably going for the Roland SRV3030D...shit...$275...a no brainer.

 

I just wanted a few forum views.

 

SOLD!!!

[Philip OKeefe]

So who's selling / closing out the Rolands at that price? Do they have any more?

 

IMO, all three units are fairly capable. It depends on what you want to do and what your preferences are. Do you want just 'verb or are other effects types important to you?

 

Phil O'Keefe

Sound Sanctuary Recording

Riverside CA

http://members.aol.com/ssanctuary/index.html

pokeefe777@msn.com

[Punchmo]

Sam Ash has the Roland SRV 3030 for $239.00. Nope, I don't work for 'em...I just get a catalog every other week. FWI, I have a Roland SDE 330 digital delay that I picked up new for $300.00 when they blew 'em out a couple of years ago and use it all the time.

 

If you can't order one of each and return the ones that don't do it for ya, then my pick would be the Roland.

[AudioGaff]

I'd go with choice number four.

 

4) Save your money and then get a good reverb.

 

But if you have to have one now, I guess I would pick the Roland. There probably isn't much difference when your choosing a cheap reverb anyway. If you avoid hearing the real good reverbs, it makes accepting the crappy ones much easier.

 

Bruce McIntyre

[AudioGaff]

I'd go with choice number four.

 

4) Save your money and then get a good reverb.

 

But if you have to have one now, I guess I would pick the Roland. There probably isn't much difference when your choosing a cheap reverb anyway. If you avoid hearing the real good reverbs, it makes accepting the crappy ones much easier.

 

Bruce McIntyre

[miroslav]

Originally posted by pokeefe777@msn.com:

So who's selling / closing out the Rolands at that price? Do they have any more?

 

Phil,

 

Most of the Roland distributors are blowin' them out. There is the basic SRV3030 and then the SRV3030D which adds SPIDF digital I/O. The basic is going for about $50 less than the D...regardless of where you find the two.

 

I bought the D version yesterday from American Musical Supply - http://www.americanmusical.com/

 

They are selling the basic for $259 and the D for $299...I also got another $25 off only because it was Non-Factory Boxed...(new with full warranty, but the box had been opened). So for $275 I got a pretty good buy.

 

I see a couple of suggestions to "...save my money until I can get a high-ticket unit...". WellI wasn't asking what is the "BEST" reverb unit, I know there are some hot units in the 2K----10K range. I was just looking at these specific three mid priced units, and if the other two were worth the extra $100 - $200 dollars.

 

I think I made the right choice between those three. Otherwise, If I had the money AND the inclination...I would take a close look at the high end TC units, but I don't have either at this time.

 

Anyway, I still think that $275 for 24 bit, true stereo, w/digi I/O can't be beat!!! Most of the decent DSPs out there have the same basic guts and will get you about 90% of the way there...those extra 10% is what usually costs the extra 2K----10K, depending on the model.

 

Some folks need, and can afford to pay, for that extra 10%...I wish I could, but the reality of it is, you have to take into account your entire studio rig...what percentile it is in...top 70...80...90...100,and then base you're purchasing decision on that.

 

I know, some people feel that you SHOULD have one, say...2K mic and one 3K pre...etc.(stuff in the top 100%),even if the rest of your studio is only at maybe 80%, I don't.

I believe more in having balance, and that whole "weakest link in the chain" theory.

 

Anyway...got to shut up already...if you want a great 'verb at a "knock your socks off" price...check out the Roland 3030s before they are.........gone!

[AudioGaff]

The Roland appears to be a good deal. But your logic is a bit flawed. If the Roland was truely a good reverb box then people would of been buying them and they would not be a discontinued item.

 

Just because a box is true stereo and 24-bit does not mean it is better than a box that is mono and 16-bit. The Lexicon PCM70 is a good example.

It will tromp all over anything made from Roland except mabe the old R880.

There is a good reason that a used PCM70 can still easily fetch $1000 or

more. It is still a killer reverb box. In fact I know of dozens of people that prefer the PCM70 reverb over the newer PCM80/81 reverb.

 

Even if the guts of all effects boxes were the same, it is not the DSP but how you use it that really matters. A more powerful DSP will allow you greater possible quality but if your alg. code is crappy, it doesn't matter what DSP or platform it runs on. That is what you pay more money for. The research and development of good reverb alg code. It is the only thing that really maters when it comes to reverb.

 

One last thing. Many clients don't choose to use someones services solely based on their skill and ability but by the tools they use to make music. Having good outboard gear including effects can get you business that would have passed you by. You can make great music with budget gear these days, but many clients expect a certain level gear that read about in trade mags that is necessary so if you don't have any of it you are only hurting your business potential.

 

Have fun with your new Roland. And when your tired of it and choose to move up, mabe it will still be worth $25. Great reverbs will keep a decent resell value on the used market, and that comes in handy when it is time to move up to the next level.

 

 

Bruce McIntyre

[dansouth]

I think I saw something on Sweetwater's site about a blowout on the Rolands.

 

I've never used any of these, but I've used reverbs from all three manufacturers (M3000, PCM90, MPX1, SRV330). The Roland had the thinest sound (surprise, surprise), but that's not necessarily bad. The SRV330's converters were the worst of the bunch, but I'm sure that these later models would sound much better.

 

The Lexicons have a thick sound. The TC is clearer, with better detail and definition. No one reverb fits all purposes, but at these prices, I don't think you can go wrong on any of these units.

[stanner]

well, i stick w/ and if you read pro mags and visit pro studios they stand the test of time -is there any other test?

[miroslav]

Guys...GUYS...PLEASEeasy does it now! I sense a bit of nose-in-the-air tension in the last few posts.

 

I'm not nockin' the higher ticket stuff like the Lexicons...nor am I saying that you won't hear a difference. I mean...comparing the older 330 Roland to the M3000 or the PCM90...come on now...of course it will fall short!

 

But to quote Bruce(audiowave):

<<"Even if the guts of all effects boxes were the same, it is not the DSP but how you use it that really matters.">>

 

Yes, this is the real deal!!!

 

However, I also understand when Bruce says:

<<"Many clients don't choose to use someone's services solely based on their skill and ability, but by the tools they use to make music. Having good outboard gear including effects can get you business that would have passed you by.">>

 

Agreed!

 

So...we have some opposing viewpoints all in the same breath. But is having these opposing viewpoints really a problem...well, for some it might be.

 

If your focus is to develop a good-to-high quality commercial recording business...YES...you absolutely need some HYPE (expensive gear/latest toys) to tickle the interest of your potential clients...or they might go down the road, and this will probably piss you off...because you KNOW that you can do as good a job with a lot less high-ticket equipment, but you have to "show off" the studio!

 

However, if your focus is doing more private, small scale project development, either your own stuff or maybe just a few select clients...then you can probably get away from the HYPE . You work with what you have, you make budget purchases when you can, and you focus on the music, the end product, rather than thinking you need to show off gear to attract clients, or that you can't do something without that high ticket gear.

 

Man...if hit the lottery...do any of you think I wouldn't buy ONLY the high-ticket stuff that's out there...boys and girlscan you say "million-dollar-studio".

 

But for now...perspective and balance...ladies and gents.

 

So I STILL think I got a fantastic buy for $275 on the Roland...hahaha!!

 

 

Peace to all, and thanks for responses!!!

[AudioGaff]

Hey Guys, I'm sorry If I came off as being snooty, didn't mean too.

I often think faster than I write so not all of those complete thoughts make it in print. I guess the point I should have stuck to is that many people can't wait to spend thier money, so they go with the sale or budget item and then often regret it later because what they bought did not meet expectations. I learned this lesson the hard way along time ago, and feel it is necessary to try and help others avoid the mistakes I made.

 

No hard feelings here. Peace!

 

Bruce McIntyre

[miroslav]

Go it my man...no need for apologies!

 

I actually had thought about the Roland from the first time I saw the price reduction about a month ago. I heed and hawd and finally I felt that even though it wouldn't measure up to a 5k unit...it was just too good a deal to pass up. So...I figured now or never!

 

Oh...I don't really believe Roland discontinued it because it sucked or because it wasn't selling. Roland is FAMOUS for churnin' out products and discontinuing stuff before the silk screened logos dry on the face plates.

I think they are suffering from the "INTEL" syndrome...keep putting out new stuff and people will keep buying it!

 

I'm sure they already have a new 'verb unit ready to debut any day now.

 

This message has been edited by miroslav on 06-15-2001 at 08:30 AM

[strat0124]

The used market is the way to go, I can promise you that your "new" module will sound 1000% better if you buy it at half price!

[sysexguy]

Well I just got a SRV3030.... for a really good deal and I must say that the fact that this product got the deep discount clearance treatment is simply justified after one quick glance at the manual..... and I am a manual reading nerd.

 

Just as an example, before having a clue what's under the hood, they're talking about linking units A & B. Luckily most people will simply load presets and be happy.

 

I bought it because Roland is the sleeper in reverb.... For those who don't know, there was a product called an R880 in the early 90's that was designed to kick a 480L for mucho less.

 

near topic rant:...and I still think Rocktron are assholes for never providing the sysex implementation for the Intelliverb and Intellifex

 

Andy

[TomL]

Miroslav...loved your work with Weather Report. Not you? Oh well....

 

I bought a 3030D a couple weeks ago (when they were still $299) from AMS. Unusual for them, but they actually had the lowest price at that time. I bought it primarily for two reasons:

 

1. I reasoned that if I could find a good hardware 'verb with SPDIF ins and outs I could replace my mixdown plug-in reverb on my DAW and free up some much-needed horsepower without extra A/D/D/A. This turned out to be a good move.

 

2. I was very intrigued by the "Dynamic Separation" feature, which I had read about in the Roland mag (giving these away to us free has finally paid off for them). As it turns out, this feature is very cool. For the uninitiated it is a feature whereby you can use frequency, note density, attack, or other parameters to trigger a dynamic switch between two different reverb presets.

 

For instance, when I want a big reverb sound I usually would like to hear a nice full reverb tail on passages that have sparse amounts of notes, but of course this can muddy up passages where there are a lot of triplets and 16th notes, so until now finding a reverb setting that works for both has been a compromise, at best. Using the DS feature I can have my cake and eat it, too. I don't think any other vendor offers a feature like this, but they all should, because it works really well if you take the time to set it up.

 

So far, I use note density to trigger between two presets which are pretty much identical, except on the long-tailed version I have reverb time = 2.2 and density = 85%, and on the short version I have reverb time = 0.7 and density = 65%. Now when the passages are note-dense the short preset automatically takes over from the long preset and presto...no more muddiness. It's pretty transparent when set up this way because note-dense passages would pretty much mask a long reverb tail anyway, except now they can have more clarity without the expense of having to live with too-short tails on less dense passages. It's a great concept, but difficult to implement the way this box is set up.

 

Also, if you wish to apply frequency or attack in DS mode you can put the 3030 on a drum mix and get long tails on snare hits without boomy sounding kiks, too, but I haven't tried that.

 

Anyone who has or gets a 3030 should search the Digidesign user conference for some very important set-up tips that I stumbled on. Specifically, the unit comes with "direct" defaulted to "on", and the reverbs sound phasey and artificial in this mode, even when set to 100% wet...apparently there is still some "dry" mixed in, and when it delays due to digital processing, it phases with the true dry signal. Turning this feature off improves things greatly.

 

There's about a dozen algorithms that they've created 100 presets for, and I think the "Hall 3" algorithm is very nice, but the presets won't exactly bowl you over. I think this fact and the "direct on" thing mentioned earlier are at the heart of why they couldn't get $995 for this and are closing it out at under $300. To get this thing to sound good you have to have an idea of what you're going for, parameter-wise, and have the knowledge, time, and patience to get there. It took me a couple of days to set my 3030 up properly, and another day to create presets and DS settings that live up to the potential of the box itself. Also, Roland manuals always approach things from the very technical, non-artistic side, and they are usually much less than they can be as a setup tool. Unfortunately, the DS settings are left entirely up to the user, and there is no indicator of which algorithm is switched in when, so it is very difficult to set up properly...it will probably take a lot more tweaking before I'm completely satisfied. The 3030 has a lot of other parameters, too, including a 3-band EQ and a compressor for the reverbs, as well as a phase/flange mode, but these are all designed to enhance the reverbs and are barely mentioned.

 

If Joe Sixpack walks into Guitar Center and spends 5 minutes demo-ing this unit and 5 minutes demo-ing pretty much any other, he'll probably not get a true idea what the 3030 can really do and at $995 or even $299 it will stay on the shelf while the $550 TC's that sound great straight out of the box will be flying off the shelves. I hope Roland learns from this.

 

I normally use a Sony DPS55 for my tracking 'verb, and it has 400 presets, many of which are very high quality and useful, including good rotary, 3D, and phase/flange presets, not to mention super-smooth plates and halls. It's no picnic to edit either, but the original presets are so good that little tweaking is necessary, and consequently I have never had to delve as deep as during this last week with the 3030. If you take the time, however, the 3030 can sound pretty good. I haven't really experimented with the RSS settings yet, but they too may have some promise.

[miroslav]

Hey TomL,

 

Appreciate your 3030 tips!

 

Do you by any chance have the link to that Digidesign User Conference that contains the Roland 3030 posts? Hmmm...was wondering why Roland equipment was on Digidesign...I guess some cross-posting...?

 

ANyway...it's good to hear that the 3030 has some balls/quality under the hood...and it will just take a little fine-tunin' to get them out! I tend to hit the presets first and then use them as the basis for creating my own.

 

If you don't mind sharing any new "gold nuggets" or quirks that you turn up with the 3030...please post 'em on this thread or shoot me an e-mail at: miroslavl@yahoo.com

 

Thanks!

[Bonafide]

This post is actually very funny really.

 

We have all gotten so damned spoiled!!

 

I remember just a few years back 3-4 actually, when any reverb that was 16 bit or a scattering of 20 bit were just to die for. And VERY expensive.

 

We have so many choices nowadays to make absolutely pristine quality recordings at home, I am able to record at a level that was only found in higher end studios 5 years ago. I have spent probably about $8000 total on my entire studio which includes, 24 bit hard disk, mics, mic-pre's, 24 bit reverbs,other effects, monitors and the tons of cables and accessories etc.

 

This post has people groveling and even bickering over reverbs that would have cost $1000 or more 3-4 years ago. We all know that there is an abundance of high ticket stuff that we could use if we had the money but so much 'prosumer' 'mid-range/price' gear out there right now is simply awesome if you take the time to learn how to use it.

 

Too many 'engineer' types or audiophiles really snub gear that they have never taken the time to use or to 'blind' test. There are truly very few people with 'golden ears' and most of these audiophile types really don't have a helpful insight but rather a closed minded opinion. Ever noticed that the best engineers have something constructive to say and how many others just 'know'. Cmon here.

 

The one thing that will KILL your end goal is all of this brand name bullshit and model # crap. (The goal is to get great sound isn't it?) Use your own great ears.

 

Cheers

[GD]

Hi Guys,

 

I know this message is a bit late on this thread but...

 

Many of us cannot afford the million dollar studios, so we have to get by on thousands... I am one of those.

 

I recently purchased a new SRV-3030D at the closeout discount price.

My main reason for getting it is that every time I purchase any non-Roland gear, I am usually sorry for doing so. Roland seems to always design their user interface the same way that I work, and their manuals IMHO are great. I know that there are people out there who knock them on this, but I personally don't find it so.

 

I purchased the SRV-3030D for its great user interface and large LCD. My current top reverb is a Lexicon MPX 1, and sorry, but its ui and manual are absolutely terrible, the windows software for it always crashes or never sees the unit. To me, it just doesn't have a professional feel. It looks great, but the implementation of it is poor (just take a look at the navigation system as an example).

 

As far as sound is concerned, the Lex has a darker/warmer sound while the Roland has a crisper/brighter sound. The Roland can easily be EQ'ed/tweaked to sound like the Lex.

However, the Roland is easier to use, has more/better features overall (except for the MPX1's multi-fx chaining), plus the number of parameters on the Roland's reverb alone far exceeds the Lexicon (ie: Roland 50, Lex 12).

 

Plus, I won't use the Lex modulation effects unless I really have to, they are terrible. I can do better than their Rotary speaker effect just by turning the Pan knob on my console. Roland definitely has the edge on Lex for these types of effects.

 

David

 

 

------------------

Li'l Chips Systems

www.lilchips.com

Roland and Cakewalk resources

Roland Peer-Newsgroups at news://news.lilchips.com

[David R.]

I bought the SRV-3030D a couple weeks ago, when I saw the blow out price. Didn't even audition it, I have an old SRV2000 that I still use for some things like percussion or when something needs a wash of reverb. The SRV 2000 is easy to edit and gets really deep if you want to. I grabbed the 3030D on the strength of the 2000 alone, and really haven't had time to tweek it yet, but I'm glad I bought it. It's already on an album.

 

-David R.

[Sui]

Another late post but I had to throw in my two..

 

My vote would go for the 3030D for the one reason that it's the only dedicated reverb out of the bunch in the original list; especially if your main goal is to use it for reverb. This applies to any budget for that matter, IMHO - more can be done with dedicated processors than all-in one deals.

 

PS - I'd still stack up my old beat up SRV-330 against any processor's reverb going for $1000 or under.

[Sir Bob]

About 10 or more years ago I picked up the Dep-5 for about $350 and it was great only a few weeks ago smoke started coming out of it and the numbers on the digital readout started going crazy. I guess it's dead.

[RandyH]

I also recently purchased an SRV-3030D. My dealer told me that it was being closed out because more and more artists were getting reverbs built in to their desktop HD recording machines, and sales of outboard gear were down as a result.

 

I'm certainly not a 'golden ears' type, but I'm very pleased with the sound quality.

 

My favorite feature is the 'built in roadie'. If you press the Audition button on certain presets, a male voice says 'check, check, check' . Useful and funny! Other presets have an impulse sound, drum hits, etc.

 

If you insert a SmartMedia card, you can record your own samples for auditioning setups.