Reverb and Drums? how to get "that" sound?

[Woodgrain]

I have just finished recording drums - we used some nice mics and had a good room, it was a great kit and had great levels. Now is the tricky taste part. It is a rock album - the band is like Tool. How do I achieve the general trend of drums and reverb. i want to make them big and sit back in the mix to achieve depth - and still having them in your face - having the drums sound inteligible not muddy and washy. What are some general reverb guidlines - parameters and settings? IS the reverb on the (Overheads) or on the sub group(all the drums)? Then is there reverb on the snare too, combined with the sub mix? What is the general goal when adding reverb to a song that is typical in structure form(a typical rock song without fancy engineering ideas)?

[ricknbokker]

"...A typical rock song without fancy engineering ideas ?"

 

I'm sorry I can't help you much with your question, but I wanted to throw something at you while you're on the subject.

 

I have no problem with your shooting for a particular sound or vibe in the recording, but it's been my experience that you should experiment and find what sounds good.

 

What I mean, is this-- there is no reason you have to 'follow the rules' when it comes to this sort of thing. I know you said the band is 'like' Tool.

Are they psuedo Tool? Is it a Tool tribute band? Do you want it to sound exactly like Tool?

 

Sorry I can't help you...but I thought I'd give you something to think about...(or reply to!)

 

Steve

[dansouth]

Originally posted by Woodgrain:

How do I achieve the general trend of drums and reverb...What are some general reverb guidlines - parameters and settings?

 

I have no idea what the "general trend" is, but here are a few suggestions.

 

Listen to CD's that you like. Listen for how long the reverb tails last (1 sec, 2 sec, less, more?) Are different drums effected differently, or do they all sound like they're in the same "space?" Peter Gabriel records are particularly interesting in this regard.

 

Use the best reverb unit that you have available. Try out some presets, but be sure to adjust the decay time for each preset. Just because it's set at 4 seconds doesn't mean you have to leave it that way. If tails from one drum hit are still active when another drum hits, your reverb time is probably too long.

 

Try to get a good sounding mix with a single reverb patch. Compare it to reference CD's for objectivity. Once you have a good sound, you can try different sounds on different drums. Maybe you don't need any reverb on the kick drum. Maybe the toms would sound good in a small room, while the snare sounds better with a large plate. Maybe the song's intro should be completely dry and the ending should be drenched. Maybe you need to cut the lows or the highs to one of the reverb feeds. Experiment.

 

Send most of your mix through one reverb patch to give the mix a consistent sound. Add other reverb sounds to one instrument or a small group of instruments.

[-]

Originally posted by dansouth@yahoo.com:

Listen for how long the reverb tails last (1 sec, 2 sec, less, more?) Are different drums effected differently, or do they all sound like they're in the same "space?"

 

While you're at it, try flipping the phase of one channel of the CD and summing both inputs to mono:

 

http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/000948.html

 

Most of the time when you use this technique, you can *really* hear the reverb, predelay, compression, and other effects used on the recording. You might be surprised at how much reverb there actually is on dry-sounding recordings...

[Ethan Winer]

Woodgrain,

 

> How do I achieve the general trend of drums and reverb. i want to make them big and sit back in the mix to achieve depth - and still having them in your face - having the drums sound inteligible not muddy and washy. <

 

I've had a lot of luck with short, "small room" reverb settings. We usually think of reverb as adding a cloud of sound that lingers for a second or three. But to make an instrument sound like it's right there in the room with you, or pushed farther back on the stage, create (or use a "stage" type preset) a reverb that has very short decay times. This gives a nice sense of ambience but without washing everything in reverb.

 

--Ethan

[strat0124]

I'm with Dan on this one, listening to stuff you like, get a good cross-section of music to draw from. It helps to have alot of processors....don't rule out using stompboxes to color a snare or whatever. Compression and gating are necessary with some drummers and the drumkit itself makes a huge diff. Placement in the room, tuning, and the dynamics of the player are all factors. I dig old Ludwig or Rodgers kits....the tone is there! It's also important to note that John Henry Bonham's drums on "When the Levee Breaks" were recording using only two mic's. Experimentation is the key.

[soapbox]

Buy an old Yamaha SPX90, dial up the biggest gated reverb patch you can find, apply it evenly to all of the drums, and you're done!

 

Listen to "Something In The Air Tonight" by Phil Collins if you're still having trouble getting "that sound." http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif

 

Only kidding! I'm just making a little joke for Lee Flier. That sound is one of her pet peeves.

 

Personally, I like to find a good sounding room and mic the room along with the drums while tracking. I suppose you could still find a good room, pipe the drums through it, track the results, and mix to personal taste. Just an idea...

 

Good luck Woodgrain.

 

soapbox

[BillBandstand Prod.]

Hi Woodgrain!

 

First of all...answer some questions..Please...

 

How many tracks are the drums on...or are they already 2 tracked?

 

Secondly: How many channels of chamber do you have available?

 

Third...

 

How were they mic-ed, which mics, and how dynamic are the mixes? I/E are there flat out hard hitting tracks and then soft ballad tracks on the same album? Does the dynamics during a song change significantly?

 

Point of these questions is this...

 

A Two track mix could use a medium plate and just let it ride experimenting with different depths and sub group levels.

 

A multitrack kit (5 to 8 mics) can benefit from multiple effects..but mute automation is a must for tracking them and cleaning out the crosstalk.

 

I have spent days on drum tracks for the right post production sound.

 

Also...In order to incorporate *Whatever/however* you have them tracked...is this a 3 piece, four piece or larger ensemble? Some of the drum effects become meaningless if the mix is huge and you are running 25 to 35 tracks per song.

 

Getting the "right" two mix will really depend on what is happening on the final outcome of the project.

 

Some answers to these...and possibly I can suggest some settings for the various tracks that will be beneficial...But cleaning up crosstalk is paramount on multitrack drums. (Mute automation...or silence punches..."Lot of work there")

[KenElevenShadows]

I think that if you are going for Tool's sound -- and btw, I agree with the post below the first one about following your own muse rather than trying to reproduce what's already been done -- you're probably going to have to get most of that done in the WAY that you record the drums initially. In my humble opinion, I don't believe that you can record drums, add some digital reverb, and hope that your stuff sounds like what you are comparing it to. It takes a helluva lot more than that.

 

I have no special insight into how Tool records their drums. A lot of it is in the way the drummer plays and how the kit is tuned. For me, if I want to get drums to sound larger than life, I'll usually stick a mic in front of the kick drum in addition to the other mic inside the kick, and move it around until I can get a serious thump going. That's a big part of the sound.

 

I'll also place a room mic (or two) in the room, and then squish the hell out of the mic(s) with heavy compression to bring up the room reverb. I'll print this to a separate track (or two) and bring it in to taste when mixing down.

 

I also do a few things with the overhead mics, depending on the sound and the room, of course. I'll move them away from the drums and up higher, or over the drummer's head, sometimes use only one overhead in omni, or whatever, just to make it work.

 

The key, of course, is listening and experimentation. There's lots of things that I will do to drums that are not considered "traditional", but screw that...I want the drum sound that fits the vibe of the song best. If that's a *small* drum sound, I'll go for it. If it's slamming and bigger than life and with a lot of life and room sound, then I'll go for that. Simply running a hall reverb over what you've already done is probably not going to get you there, because if it were that easy, then everyone would do it.

 

Then there is also the room you choose, the choice of microphones and their specific positioning, the way the drums are tuned, the way the drummer plays, the mic preamps, the compression (if any), the way the drums are EQ'd (if they indeed are), the purposeful leaking of the drums into the other instruments (which is a HUGE part of how to get a large, slammin' drum sound), and a bunch of other things.

 

The question you ask is a really big complex question, and would require reams of writing to address properly, and even then, it may not completely apply to what you are going after.

 

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Ken/Eleven Shadows/d i t h er/Nectar

http://www.elevenshadows.com 4 music, travel, more!

http://www.cdbaby.com/elevenshadows

[carcrash club]

Tool mixes their drum sounds with triggered drums to get "that sound". Listen closely and you'll hear a real roomy miked sound with a tight triggered sound.

[Woodgrain]

Thanks for the all posts. Just to show the foundation for what i have done is I recorded the drums with a Soundcraft Digital 328 into a Nuendo/RME 96/52 Hammerfall.I own a Presonus ACP 22 and a rented LA-2A for controlling dynamics. I used 2 AKG C3000B's for the overheads, an AKG D112 for the kick, a Shure 57 for the snare, and 3 Audio Technica 4033a's for the toms. I am using Cubase VST32/5.0 on a PIII 500. I multitracked the drums, 8 tracks. The room was big and somewhat ambient. The drums are big fat clear and clean. The toms are tuned to pitches of the song (A,D,A)- as to avoid muddiness, phase, wave cancellation that kinda thing because there is a lot of low end information from the toms , bass guitar and guitar in this band that i am recording. The songs are all in the key of D. So the toms are either the root(tonic) or the 5th (dominant) (which is A). Ok so now you know the drums have been meticulously recorded by demo standards. Now!!!!! All I wanted to know was things like decay times, predelay ,reverb time, early reflections. For that sound....Do I use a reverb for the whole kit and leave out the snare, then put the snare in another reverb. Do rock drums generally have fast decay times...blah blah blah. The reason I ask this is that after I recorded the drums the drummer asked me to get the sound of reverb, from the new Tool album. And I thought there might just be some users in the "EXPERT" forum who work with rock bands and have ideas and oppinions on reverb and its use for rock drums. I just wanted to know if there were trends for this, i say trend because the Sound or Rock" is an 1176 squashing vocals to sit upfront the mix, Loud and crucnhy. Now if there is a trend for rock vocals then there has got to be a trend for rock reverb. I suppose I could go any buy all the new rock albums listen to them all and make notes....but!!! Thats why the "EXPERT" forums are here. So if I could get some educated answers that would be greatly appreciated, more than people who feel the need to post a nothing reply and only prove a talk around riddle.

[Jason Poff]

It seems you're getting frustrated because nobody is posting an answer like "Oh, you want xyz's drum sound? Pull up preset #76 in (insert your favorite processer). Lengthen the delay time to 60ms Bring the hipass up to 330hz, etc..." It's because this answer does not exist.

You said, "I just wanted to know if there were trends for this, i say trend because the Sound or Rock is an 1176 squashing vocals to sit upfront the mix, Loud and crucnhy. Now if there is a trend for rock vocals then there has got to be a trend for rock reverb."

I think it's easier to make generalizations about vocals because generally you have one source, the mouth, miked with one or two mics (most of the time), compared to how many different sources on a drumkit miked with how many different mics?

What tempo is the song? What does the bass sound like? How many other tracks are there? And what do these tracks sound like. I'd venture say if your answers to any of these questions differ at all from what Tool's engineer(Massey?) would say about their last project, then you probably don't want that exact Tool sound anyway. Similar, yes, but exactly? Come on, live a little. Be daring. Take what Tool has done, learn from it, expand on it, and watch your engineering chops grow in the process.

You also stated, "I suppose I could go any buy all the new rock albums listen to them all and make notes....but!!!" That's the best advice you could give yourself. Music engineering is an artform. Treat it with the respect it demands, and study it like you would any other artform you wanted to master. I couldn't paint like Van Gough even if I had the earless wonder mixing my colors and choosing my brushes. But I might be able to paint in his style after only fifty or sixty years of dedicated study. (not to mention a brain transplant for painting talent http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif) Don't expect simple "insert tab A into slot B" answers to get the sound you're looking for. They won't.

 

Jason

[gawkmanhotmail.com]

Sheeesh, the guy just needs some ideas and a starting point, we all know there's no cookie-cutter solution, give him a break!!!

 

I recommended listening to the Tool song "Eulogy"... shouldn't be too hard to find an mp3, if not, see if you can find someone to let you borrow the album "Aenima" that it's on if you don't want to buy it. From what I've heard, the drums are pretty much the same production style as their new album (and I know that they spent a SHITLOAD of money producing that album, I think it was the same producer). I recommend that song because at 6:35, there is a section of nothing but drums and a short vocal line.... you can here everything that did to those drums right there. Definitely a hall-like verb on the snare. I think there's a hint of verb on the overheads/or hi-hat to make them sparkle, but very subtle. Kick drum is very consistent and harder... possibly a triggered midi kick mixed with the original.

 

What other bands do these guys listen to? Alternative/metal bands like Creed, Sevendust, Godsmack? Older stuff like Alice In Chains, Soundgarden, Stone Temple Pilots? More hardcore metal stuff like Pantera, Machine Head, Soulfly, Sepultura? If you can name a couple of bands they also may have mentioned, I can probably give you a more general idea because they probably try to record drums similar to the way I've spent the last 2 years of my life looking into, and had going until I heard a snare sound I liked better that I gotta figure out! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif

[spigotsaol.com]

I find a 32nd note delay with a hint of modulation fed from all drums and mixed in to where you just hear a whisper of it helps add ambience. An imperceptible short dly (64th note or faster) on the Kick (almost inaudibly) will add life. Sample a kick you like, and play it at half speed. You can hear all kinds of short reflections going on. A nice gated reverb on snares and toms still works. A short plate or room with timed Pre delay can help smooth things out. With drop D tuning, you're gonna have alotta information at 140-150 Hz, and again at 75 Hz, and again at 34 Hz. I would EQ my Verb sends to roll out all below 180 Hz or so.

 

Frank

 

http://www.mp3.com/spigots

[Coerce]

Woodgrain-

Getting a sound that you have in your head down to tape is a never ending quest. From what I've read about your problem and the other responses I would say that looking to effects, whether delays or dynamics, is only the icing on the cake.

 

You detailed how you set up the drums quite well. Do the drums alone in the room sound like what you are trying to achieve? This should get you to 75-80% of the sound you are looking for. If the source isn't close than you will never get there. Reverbs, delays and dynamics normally just get you across the finish line. Make sure the drums themselves sound like how you envision. They may be meticulously tuned and the player may be excellent, it just may still result in a different sound. Triggering or layering in samples may get you there as well.

 

If the drums alone don't sound right perhaps asking the question on the drums forum may get some results as well. Perhaps some new tuning or set up advice can help (e.g. crank the tensioning way high, use closer to these size drums, etc...)

 

Just some thoughts,

[KenElevenShadows]

Woodgrain stated:

 

> So if I could get some educated answers that would be greatly appreciated, more than people who feel the need to post a nothing reply and only prove a talk around riddle. >

 

I don't really appreciate this sentiment here. I wrote what I felt was extremely useful experience based on years of experience recording rock drums. You asked "How do I achieve the general trend of drums and reverb."

 

I addressed this by describing my philosophy on recording drums, and by stating that adding reverb is only a part of the whole picture in achieving drums that, as you want, sound like Tool.

 

"i want to make them big and sit back in the mix to achieve depth - and still having them in your face" Again, I addressed this. If you feel that I've provided a "nothing reply and a talk-around riddle", then by all means, go ahead and strap a digital reverb across the snare or the whole mix and go for it. I'm sorry that you feel that information on how to achieve a natural room reverb sound, micing techniques, and general philosophy is useless to you. Grab a Lexicon and go for it.

 

 

 

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Ken/Eleven Shadows/d i t h er/Nectar

http://www.elevenshadows.com 4 music, travel, more!

http://www.cdbaby.com/elevenshadows

[Woodgrain]

Hello,

 

Ken, its ok you gave wonderful insight, I wasnt refering to you, the second respondent i was. WE are all artists and experimenting is the key but there are guidelines. My biggest pet peeve a few years ago was compression and how to use it. People always gave answers like use your ears, which is only helpful to a point. Answers like a compressor controls dynamics and this is a transient. 1. Attack 2. Decay. 3. Sustain 4. Release. What we want to do is control the transient or the body. Fast attack times control the transient slower controls the body. Now to a virgin engineer or first timer that is what info is needed to understand how a compressor works and when to use it. But riddles like just use your ears its an art is a riddle and a talk around. All that is needed is the idea to start-ballpark- then the rest is creativity and ears. BUT!!! There must be a start point. With reverb it it the same I understand country drums but have no experience with rock. Rwo different styles I know jazz and counrty and classical. And rock is new to me so there must be a style of trend of the way engineers of rock music are doing things and I wanted to know some input. After my second post I got my answer and it is wonderful insight. I appreciate all the info and just remeber to answer it with experience not just a riddle. Just think just because you know how to do something and explain it in terms that can be understood by only someone else who knows is not always helpful, remeber thats is why the question was asked - all the info in your head that can be explained should be even if it may seem trivial.

 

Stay happy and no offence is meant by this post.

[KenElevenShadows]

Cool. I thought it was right after my post, but upon looking, there is a shorter post between them anyway...anyway, thanks for the explanation! I hope you have lots of success achieving the sound! Post back here to tell us what works, and what to avoid!

 

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Ken/Eleven Shadows/d i t h er/Nectar

http://www.elevenshadows.com 4 music, travel, more!

http://www.cdbaby.com/elevenshadows