- Posted May 25, 2001 Share Posted May 25, 2001 There is a church in San Francisco which honors John Coltrane as their patron saint. Check out this link: http://www.saintjohncoltrane.org/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
- Posted May 25, 2001 Author Share Posted May 25, 2001 Maybe we could form the Saint Tedster Orthodox Church. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Posted May 25, 2001 Share Posted May 25, 2001 Hey, here in Portland Oregon we have a little dive called the Church of Elvis. It's a coin operated church where you can get married (not legitimately of course) among other things. Too funny! -Dylan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anderton Posted May 25, 2001 Share Posted May 25, 2001 I think John Coltrane is about as good as choice as anyone else...listen to "A Love Supreme" long enough, and you will see God... Craig Anderton Educational site: http://www.craiganderton.org Music: http://www.youtube.com/thecraiganderton Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/craig_anderton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
- Posted May 25, 2001 Author Share Posted May 25, 2001 The John Coltrane church is for real, apparently -- check out these articles: http://www.saintjohncoltrane.org/html/pressarticles.html From the description, it sounds like their services are like free jazz concerts, but... Why Coltrane?!?!? I mean, Elvis' music is at least accessible to most people who might form a congregation, but Coltrane -- no matter how ya cut it -- is just musically *out there*. It just seems like a *really* unusual figurehead for a congregation. Kinda like having a Church of John Zorn or Church of Skinny Puppy. Wow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViLo Posted May 25, 2001 Share Posted May 25, 2001 Matthew 7:21-23, 24:24 ViLo ------------------ HE'S COMING, MAKE MUSIC, BE HAPPY! Jesus Is Coming, Make Music, Get Ready! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KidCharlemagne Posted May 25, 2001 Share Posted May 25, 2001 i've actually played in that church as a sub for their pianist. this is fifteen years ago, and it was pretty way out, featuring lots of weed before during and after the service, TOTALLY outside playing from a very loud group of tenor sax players and a handful of others, and led by a group of wonderful souls (including some former airport proselytizers) who set up this storefront church in the Mission. (as i recall there was a merger of two churches) But make no mistake: it's the real thing, and the music is the heartbeat of their church. My best friend, who died tragically in 1990, was the pianist there for a couple of years in the mid 80s. they were extremely welcoming and generous to this odd, brilliant and sweet white boy from Tennessee and the New England Conservatory (i still love him and miss him). I know he must be with them in spirit. and St. John, the Divine, a Love Supreme, IS with them. alive and well. (i became much better acquainted with some of his writings while Ian was there. Coltrane was a bona fide musical, spiritual and poetic genius) if you're out there, check it out. you will be impressed. This message has been edited by KidCharlemagne on 05-25-2001 at 01:58 PM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tedster Posted May 25, 2001 Share Posted May 25, 2001 Popmusic said... >>>Maybe we could form the Saint Tedster Orthodox Church. ROFL!!! Hahahaha...have to have huge potluck dinners every day... Hey, ViLo...yep about the false prophets thing...but we're just having a little joke, y'know...nudge nudge... "Cisco Kid, was a friend of mine" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anderton Posted May 25, 2001 Share Posted May 25, 2001 Just before Coltrane died, he did an interview (it may have been in Downbeat or the newspaper, I can't recall). Anyway, he said he was going into the studio in a few weeks, and was really excited because he said he had found some sort of musical breakthrough that was going to change the world. Needless to say, I was breathless with anticipation to hear what he was going to come up with next. Then he died!! The first time I heard John Coltrane was with the LP Ascension. I thought it was one of the worst pieces of garbage I ever heard. But then I heard some of his earlier music from the 50s, and thought it was great...could never understand why he decided to go so "far out." I sort of worked my way forward from his earlier music, until I ended up back at Ascension. When I heard it after following Coltrane's musical and spiritual evolution, it made complete sense, and I found it transcendent. Coltrane is one of my absolute top musical heroes, up there with Hendrix and Bach. I have no problem seeing him as a saint. I just wished he had been able to record that music that was going to change the world...coming from anyone else, I would think it was hype. Coming from him, I think he must have been on to something.......... Craig Anderton Educational site: http://www.craiganderton.org Music: http://www.youtube.com/thecraiganderton Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/craig_anderton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David R. Posted May 25, 2001 Share Posted May 25, 2001 Yes, the Church of St. John "Will-I-Am" (as they pronounce it on the local KPOO radio station) Coltrane has been around for a long time. The recent real estate insanity that happened here forced the church to move from it's long time home in the Filmore district to Hunters Point. Landlords raised the rent by something like 500% or more. No idea if the move has been successful, but the church has a program on KPOO every tuesday afternoon and plays hours of Coltrane and related music. Now that the dot-com is a dot-gone, the rents are starting to come down again. Hallaluyah. Praise John. The love supreme. -David R. (Oi vey) -David R. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
- Posted May 25, 2001 Author Share Posted May 25, 2001 Originally posted by Anderton: The first time I heard John Coltrane was with the LP Ascension. I thought it was one of the worst pieces of garbage I ever heard. But then I heard some of his earlier music from the 50s, and thought it was great...could never understand why he decided to go so "far out." I sort of worked my way forward from his earlier music, until I ended up back at Ascension. When I heard it after following Coltrane's musical and spiritual evolution, it made complete sense, and I found it transcendent. Coltrane is one of my absolute top musical heroes, up there with Hendrix and Bach. I have no problem seeing him as a saint. This sounds like the problem I've had with Coltrane... I have not yet been able to get into him, as the only stuff I'm familiar with is "A Love Supreme", "Ascension", and a couple of "Best of" compilations. I'm not saying I don't like his music -- it's just that I don't understand it... Not yet, anyway. Maybe I should give his stuff another try, as it's been a few years since I last listened. No matter how I wrap my head around it, to me it seems unusual to praise a musician along the lines of sainthood. My feeling is that sainthood seems to be something reserved for people who have done something overwhelmingly positive for others or for society (for example, someone like Dr. Martin Luther King). I know Coltrane has affected society via music, but he seemed to be on his own artistic/personal journey moreso than doing something which would affect others. I think most brilliant artists are like that. I mean, I consider Les Paul and Brian Wilson to be geniuses. But in no way would I ever consider either of them as a candidate for religious study. Musical study, sure... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KidCharlemagne Posted May 25, 2001 Share Posted May 25, 2001 i think the point for these folks is not just that he was such a genius but that he preached a message of love and transcendance, unity, brotherhood of man, etc. i'm neither a follower nor a detractor, but i have been in the temple of love that is this church and yes, it's a little trippy, but the believers are sincere, serious, and committed. and they really do connect his message to the Gospels, try to live the teachings of Jesus and uncover the Love of the Holy Spirit. Coltrane's music is as good a vehicle as any, if it works. If you are moved by such things, you really have to see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duhduh Posted May 26, 2001 Share Posted May 26, 2001 You gotta hear the old Coltrane. Great stuff! "Meat is the only thing you need beside beer! Big hunks of meat and BEER!!...Lots of freakin' BEER." "Hey, I'm not Jesus Christ, I can't turn water into wine. The best I can do is turn beer into urine." Zakk Wylde http://www.hepcnet.net/bbssmilies/super.gif http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/15_1_109.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alphajerk Posted May 26, 2001 Share Posted May 26, 2001 i prefer Bob Dobbs and the Church of the SUBgenius. although i could certainly dig the Church of JIMI. alphajerk FATcompilation "if god is truly just, i tremble for the fate of my country" -thomas jefferson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David R. Posted May 26, 2001 Share Posted May 26, 2001 A love supreme. A love supreme. A love supreme. A love supreme. A love supreme. A love supreme. A love supreme. A love supreme. A love supreme. A love supreme. A love supreme. A love supreme. A love supreme. A love supreme. A love supreme. A love supreme. A love supreme. A love supreme. A love supreme. A love supreme. A love supreme. A love supreme. A love supreme. A love supreme. A love supreme. Taco supreme. A love supreme. A love supreme. A love supreme. A love supreme. A love supreme. A love supreme. A love supreme. A love supreme. A love supreme. A love supreme. A love supreme. A love supreme. A love supreme. A love supreme. A love supreme. A love supreme. A love supreme. A love supreme. A love supreme. A love supreme. A love supreme. A love supreme. -David R. -David R. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tedster Posted May 26, 2001 Share Posted May 26, 2001 Yeah, the first Coltrane I heard was what we used to call "chair-throwing jazz"...stuff like Pharoah Sanders and what not...free form. I couldn't get into it at all...I mean for a piece, it was different...but a whole album. Kinda like the Emperor's new clothes...everyone around saying "This guy's a GENIUS!" and I'm scratching my head, saying "This guy's a NUT". Well, wasn't 'til later I heard his earlier works. The chair-throwing stuff still leaves me cold, though. A lot like seeing early Picasso and realizing what a gifted artist he was, and then seeing his later cubist stuff and going "Huh?" I heard someone mention Charles Ives on another thread. He's another composer I (personally) can't stand. Oh, don't get me wrong...if anyone likes his stuff fine...but for me, it sounds like you're caught between two or three different radio stations playing different selections in different keys. "Cisco Kid, was a friend of mine" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aeon Posted May 26, 2001 Share Posted May 26, 2001 Originally posted by popmusic: No matter how I wrap my head around it, to me it seems unusual to praise a musician along the lines of sainthood. My feeling is that sainthood seems to be something reserved for people who have done something overwhelmingly positive for others or for society (for example, someone like Dr. Martin Luther King). Being that sainthood is a term that exists solely in the context of a given religious tradition, of course a musician shall never be one. That said, to me the best musicians are those people who can manipulate sound such that my consciousness is altered and brought to a higher level in the hierarchy of matter > body > mind > soul > spirit. In this sense, musicians can very much be agents of deliverance, blessed beings who can create something so lovely, so captivating, that deep in the contemplation of their music I lose myself and become one with all things, existing only in the moment in a state of spiritual bliss. Saint? Nah, that doesn't do a musician justice. Go tell someone you love that you love them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chip McDonald Posted May 27, 2001 Share Posted May 27, 2001 Originally posted by Tedster: couldn't get into it at all...I mean for a piece, it was different...but a whole album. Kinda like the Emperor's new clothes...everyone around saying "This guy's a GENIUS!" and I'm scratching my head, saying "This guy's a NUT. It's annoying hip now to avoid form. "Playing free" in a formless fashion IS NOT BEING CREATIVE. It's bs for people who are inherently non-creative. If you really are creative, it will automatically have form. Perfect formlessness *is a form itself*. Playing deliberately formless is a style - it's a rule. Screw that. Everyone in hipster circles are so self-conscious: they don't want to do anything that might sound uncool, maybe like prog, or anything else. So restrictive: admit your awareness of a style and realize it's neither superior or inferior, and use it to your advantage. If you can't make "cool" prog, it's not because prog can't be cool - it's because *you suck a musician*. The free school is basically as idiotic as inbred hillbillies playing out of tune country music. It doesn't matter if you think you're making a "etude" consisting of parallel 2nd bassline movement under polytonal voiceleading, if it sounds silly it is silly. I jammed with an upright bassist and a great fusion drummer tuesday. Played almost 4 hours straight non-stop. The bass player is totally deconstructionist - does not allow any structure to form. Probably from the thought process of "it's not exploring unless it's constantly changing" and "it's not hip if it has form". Kind of aggravating, but an interesting challenge to try to glue a musically slippery drive into something. Regardless, I do not associate that attitude with and differance from a blues guy that doesn't stray from I IV V forms; it's never the less a ridgid framework. The state of being perfectly formless is itself a form. Coltrane pushed the envelope NOT of formlessness, but of superimposing form. He wasn't pushing towards simplying into formlessness, a buddhist musical bent to nothingingness, but pushing the edge of human comprehension of form. Which is difficult to listen to, and create. The concept of listening to a line follow one path over a change is one thing, but trying to make multiple lines work at the same time over the same change while also relating to each other is a much more complex form. To a lot of people, it probably sounds like giberrish. A lot of it is, I don't think he was totally successful; but the point is that it comes off that way because he *didn't* get the form into it, that was the fault. Deconstructing form by being discordant and atonal is making a form itself, and a banal one at that. ------------------ New and Improved Music Soon: http://www.mp3.com/chipmcdonald Guitar Lessons in Augusta Georgia: www.chipmcdonald.com Eccentric blog: https://chipmcdonaldblog.blogspot.com/ / "big ass windbag" - Bruce Swedien Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alphajerk Posted May 27, 2001 Share Posted May 27, 2001 chip, reading that was like watching a nascar race. some idiot driving in circles. free form vs. structured form, of course free form has structure. without it it would result in quite a mess. the difference is approach and the path one travels. a bunch of people who cant play are going to sound like shit regardless of free form playing or playing standards. people who can play will make both sound great. i prefer to play free form for one reason, i rarely get to play with a bunch of people so instead of scratching our heads thinking of some song we could play we just start playing. find a groove, move around on it. i also like the element of surprise. you wont find many suprised in a traditional blues progression. chaos is a form as well. so is order. alphajerk FATcompilation "if god is truly just, i tremble for the fate of my country" -thomas jefferson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
- Posted May 27, 2001 Author Share Posted May 27, 2001 Originally posted by alphajerk: chaos is a form as well. so is order. I agree. I think it was Brian Eno or John Cage (forgot which) who said something like, "No matter what direction music takes in the future, the one thing it will never abandon is form." For example, every piece of music (at least from the listener's perspective) has a beginning and end to it. That's still form. I can't think of something considered a piece of music that doesn't have at least a beginning and an end to it -- not even experimental music/art installations with looped music, which most definitely has a form. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lrossmusic Posted May 27, 2001 Share Posted May 27, 2001 John Coltrane died at age 40. By that time he had indeed reached what many described as the spiritual period of his musical development where his themes and concerns centered around what he described as 'being a part of the force for good'. This period began around 1964 when he successfully overcame heroin addiction and recorded "A Love Supreme" as his thank you to our Creator for saving him. My first acquaintance with Coltrane's music came shortly before this with his "Giant Steps" LP which is still my favorite. If I were to introduce someone to the Coltrane legacy I would start with "Giant Steps" and work backwards before examining his later explorations in what might be characterized as freeform avant guard spiritualism. This way one might not so easily dismiss this truly astounding artist and humanitarian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D. Gauss Posted May 27, 2001 Share Posted May 27, 2001 i prefer maidenform! it's uplifting with structure, supports multiple parts, and holds everything together.... -d. gauss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
- Posted May 27, 2001 Author Share Posted May 27, 2001 Originally posted by alphajerk: free form vs. structured form, of course free form has structure. without it it would result in quite a mess. Like, if you were Woodstock Al doing "Purple Haze"... http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif Check it out: http://www.incorrectmusic.com/realaudio/songs/woodstockal_purplehaze.ram Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chip McDonald Posted May 27, 2001 Share Posted May 27, 2001 Originally posted by alphajerk: chip, reading that was like watching a nascar race. some idiot driving in circles. I don't watch nascar, so I wouldn't know. I'm sorry your comprehension is so jerk-like. free form vs. structured form, of course free form has structure. It doesn't have structure, it *is* a structure. There's a differance and it's not circular. without it it would result in quite a mess. Which is why most of it is drek. find a groove, move around on it. You don't know what we're talking about. ------------------ New and Improved Music Soon: http://www.mp3.com/chipmcdonald This message has been edited by Chip McDonald on 05-27-2001 at 12:56 PM Guitar Lessons in Augusta Georgia: www.chipmcdonald.com Eccentric blog: https://chipmcdonaldblog.blogspot.com/ / "big ass windbag" - Bruce Swedien Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alphajerk Posted May 28, 2001 Share Posted May 28, 2001 whats up with your replies chip? the knife seems dull lately. you been smoking pot? of course i do, are you sure you got a handle on things? alphajerk FATcompilation "if god is truly just, i tremble for the fate of my country" -thomas jefferson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chip McDonald Posted May 28, 2001 Share Posted May 28, 2001 Originally posted by alphajerk: whats up with your replies chip? the knife seems dull lately. you been smoking pot? of course i do, are you sure you got a handle on things? The "knife"? No, I find it quizzical to be attacked from afar with the nascar referance and then tedious when realizing you're not even on the same page as far as the "chair throwing" reference (which is definitely not "sitting on a groove") is concerned. I seem to have no free time now and I am trying to apportion it accordingly. ------------------ New and Improved Music Soon: http://www.mp3.com/chipmcdonald Guitar Lessons in Augusta Georgia: www.chipmcdonald.com Eccentric blog: https://chipmcdonaldblog.blogspot.com/ / "big ass windbag" - Bruce Swedien Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b3wiz Posted May 28, 2001 Share Posted May 28, 2001 I don't think the Saint thing is all that far fetched. I am not a religious type (don't go to church) but do have a strong sense of spirituality. I used to be involved with organized religion and personally found way too many inconsistancies between it and the actual life and message of Jesus and others. But, I don't condemn those who do partake. It may be what works for them. As for Coltrane being declared a saint of a church, I think that perhaps even God himself would not be totally opposed to that. I was traveling through Texas with a friend one time and he, being a religious sort, wanted to attend church on Sunday morning. The worship service was great. They had a whole band with some extraordinary talent. Afterwards they asked people with prayer needs to come up front. This kind of thing had always made me uncomfortable so I tried to duck out of there. My friend tried to stop me and he said he felt I should go up front and play the piano while they were praying. The nice K.Kawai sitting up there was, admittedly a temptation, but the whole thing was extremely uncomfortable for me so I bolted and went out for a ride. I came back for my friend when I figured the prayer thing would be over. When I walked in the back of the sanctuary I could see, to my amazment, that it was still going on. I caught my friend's eye and he motioned for me to come over. He introduced me to some people he met and they all began pleading with me to play. Some friend, huh? So, totally uncomfortable and not seeming to have any tactful exit strategy in mind, I succumbed to their coersion and sat down to play. I just layed down some light jazz and new ageish improv, not knowing what else would fit. As I did there were perhaps a dozen or so people (many of them beautiful women,he he http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif ) literally fell down around the piano. I was so nervous I thought I was going to black out. I was shaking like a leaf and I had no idea what was coming down. The women began crying...I mean really crying, tears, the whole nine yards. When it was all over, which, I guess was when I emotionally could no longer perform, one by one they came over to me and thanked me and hugged me. They began to tell me how through my music they had their hearts and minds opened to issues that they had been dealing with and that they had found peace and resolution and all that. It was kinda wierd, but in a nice way. I left there floating on a cloud, myself. In a way it was the best gig I have ever had. I realized that music is, indeed, a universal form of communication. One that can be used for good, evil or otherwise according to who is listening. If the people of this church have been comforted or motivated to do good thru the gifted musical offerings of Coletrane then, in a sense, he is a saint to them. As far as musicians never having a place in sainthood, I couldn't disagree more. I believe that musicians are the prophets of today. Just as in biblical times there were prophets who did not always use their gifts for good purposes and were hence, deemed false prophets, so it is today. But, whether or not a prophet or a musician purposely uses their gifts for good, they will inevitablely have a profound impact on some people. I think it is better to just play from your heart and be niced to people and not get involved in trying to make a ministry out of it. That is the place where we take it out of God's hands and into our own. That is where true spirtuality ends and man made religion begins. And that, as we all know, can be a dangerous place that often accomplishes the opposite of the intentions of it's original spiritual leaders. Sorry, hope I didn't sound like I was preaching. It's just an interesting thread and perhaps my own experience might shed some light to some. Peace. John http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lrossmusic Posted May 28, 2001 Share Posted May 28, 2001 Someone once asked John Coltane what religion he believed in. He answered; "all of them". From what I've heard and read I doubt that Trane would be that comfortable with the 'saint' title. Although I never met him or caught a live performance people say he was soft spoken and very humble. Some say he was always practicing. I'm talking like all day long or even during the breaks at his gigs. I heard Miles got on him once about playing too long. When he told Miles he couldn't seem to help it Miles suggested that he try taking the horn out of his mouth. ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Worthington Posted May 29, 2001 Share Posted May 29, 2001 Originally posted by popmusic: The John Coltrane church is for real, apparently -- I've been to services there. The church is for real and the jazz is incredible. I came out feeling renewed. jw Affiliations: Jambé Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ricongacharter.net Posted May 29, 2001 Share Posted May 29, 2001 if your havin a tough time with "a love supreme" go back check and check out impressions, naima,giant steps and mr pc then check out louis gascas arangement of a love supreme (a groove so deep you could drown in it) then listen to the original again. the picture will start to really focus up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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