Monitoring problems

[Lee Flier]

Hey all,

 

I'm discovering that I have a small problem with my home studio setup. I don't have a separate control room and tracking room, everything is all in one room (and I like it that way). The room sounds great when playing live in it - not too much reverberation, not too dead, no apparent bass buildup. But when I'm mixing, even with nearfields at relatively low volume (85dB) the highs seem to fry my ears while the bottom seems to disappear. If I turn up the volume more, the highs get higher but the bottom seems to disappear even more. That I must have an acoustical problem is kinda obvious. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif Then what happens is that my mixes don't translate well elsewhere - they've got too much bottom and I always have to go back and blindly try to compensate for that.

 

Part of the problem was my monitors themselves - they were definitely too small and didn't give me enough bottom (and mind you I'm not trying to do hip hop or modern pop here, I'm not a "bass freak" I like a flat natural sound). So I got a pair of KRK V8's. These are KILLER monitors for the price and I like them a LOT. They are definitely helping reveal mud that wasn't there before. But they still don't sound in my room the way they sounded in the demo room where I heard them (given the same recorded material). They are active monitors, so it's not the amp. It could be the positioning too - they are only about 28 inches off the ground right now which pretty much puts the tweeters right in my ears. Of course at most commercial studios they are higher, and I might just build some higher stands and see if that helps.

 

But, I thought I'd describe the room anyway and see if any of you can think of any obvious problems and possible (cheap!) solutions. The room is 19.5 x 24 feet. The ceilings are a little less than 8 feet high unfortunately, but only by a few inches. It's a basement room, so the floor is on a concrete slab, with commercial grade tile on it - you know the bitumen stuff you see on hospital and grocery store floors. Ceiling is a drop ceiling with acoustical tiles and insulation inside. An insulated vent and drainpipe hang down a few inches from the ceiling making it irregularly shaped. Walls are just plain drywall with insulation underneath. Nothing rattles around since the floor is stable, and as I said, live tracking sounds nice.

 

The recording setup is roughly in the center of one of the longer walls. Almost directly across from the recording gear, against the other long wall, is an upright piano. I don't know if this is a help or a hindrance - it does make the reflective surface uneven but it might distort things also.

 

Against one of the shorter walls is a futon couch with a 6x9 area rug in front of it, plus some end tables. Against the opposite shorter wall is the drum kit, PA system, and guitar amps. Against the same wall as the recording gear I've got my guitars hanging on the walls, plus the entrance door is at one end of that wall and a closet door on the other end.

 

Is there anything obvious that could be wrong? Any obvious treatments I could use? Any suggestions would be appreciated!

 

--Lee

 

 

This message has been edited by Lee Flier on 05-24-2001 at 01:23 PM

[David R.]

Hi Lee, I would try out different monitors. If you live somewhere close to one of those giant music stores where they let you return stuff, try a few different brands/models. You really have to bring them home and hear them in your set-up. The room you demo'd them in was probably smaller, so the bass could fill the room, and there was less concrete and tile to bounce the highs around. Try some commercial drapes, that have sound absorbing material on one side. (Used in hotels to keep street noise out) They also have the advantage of making the room look bigger (hmmm, what's behind the drapes?).

 

One more suggestion would be to audition a sub woofer. The mistake I always hear with those is they tend to be disproportionaly loud, so watch out for that.

 

Keep on rocking. In the free world.

 

-David R.

[sign]

Hi Lee

 

I saw an article on www.johnvestman.com about monitors "monitor madness" and maybe it can help you solve your problem.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Peace.

[miroslav]

Hey Lee!

 

You could put some tissues on the tweeters...NS10 style...or maybe a horse blanket...hahaha.

 

I'll trade you for my Tannoy PBM 6.5s...bass up the ass...I'm actually planning on plugging the rear ports to see if I can flatten out the low end a bit.

 

Maybe...put 'em up against the wall and foam the crap out of that wall and ceiling above your mix position...it might cut the highs and let the lows through...

A bit backwards from what I always understood as the "more" recommended treatment...front wall live, ceiling above mix position dead, side walls half & half, and back wall/corners really dead for the low end.

 

Youu might try a carpet at the listening position too.

 

Hey, I have a small upright piano too...do you leave the inside "open" or do you stuff it or cover it during tracking/mixing? I think the irregular shape and wood should be good for diffusion, but if you just stand next to it and clap loudly, you can hear the soundboard echo back...it must be even worse with a full mix hitting it. I'm going to try deadening the inside and also maybe throw a (horse) blanket over it during recording/mixing.

 

This message has been edited by miroslav on 05-24-2001 at 01:27 PM

[Lee Flier]

Dave - I've tried several different monitors and I'm quite sure at this point the problem isn't my monitors. And I'd really rather not go with a sub. I've mixed in plenty of commercial studios where I didn't need a sub even with just nearfields, so I think if I try to solve the problem with room treatment it will be my best bet.

 

Miroslav - never thought about opening up the piano. That could be interesting. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif I'll see if that changes the sound any. I suppose covering it with a blanket might help get rid of some of the highs, too. Hmmm.

 

--Lee

[Pro Jules]

KRK V8

 

Systems Controls

 

HF ADJUSTMENT

High Frequency Adjustment is through a rear panel mounted 3-position toggle switch. Range of control is +1dB,

Flat, or -1dB shelving above 1 kHz. Factory setting for your V8 is flat (toggle switch is in middle position). Room

acoustics may dictate which type of adjustment you need to make to retain a flat frequency response from the

monitor. (See additional information in Installing Your Monitors section on page 4.)

LF ADJUSTMENT

Low Frequency turnover is set to 45Hz, 50Hz, or 65Hz by a rear panel mounted 3-position toggle switch. Rear

panel response curve graphics assist you in selecting the appropriate setting. Factory setting for your V8 is -3dB @

45 Hz (toggle switch is in up position). Room acoustics may dictate which type of adjustment you need to make

 

 

Lee - playing a CD you know the bottom end well of, through your system, adjust the controls on the speakers accordingly.(Just do it with one speaker on then copy those settings to the other one)

The factory default settings are not a 'right way' they are just 'one way' and are adjustable so as you can tune the speakers into different situations..

I suggest you boost bass (or 'un-cut it') and reduce High Frequency the most you can..

try that and see how CD's sound in your studio.

Bone up on how moving the speakers closer or further from a wall can increase bass responce, (I think it's closer for more bass) Anyhow try that too. Between the speaker to back wall distance and the tweak settings you should be good to go.

After the optimum tweak is done, you will have to retrain your ears to the new monitors. do this by sitting there and reading EQ with your favorite "broad spectrum" sonic guides on the CD player.

 

I often 'knock back' up to 6db of HF on my Genelec's when I take em elsewhere to work.. just too bright otherwise. But with adjustment - just perfect for me.

 

Jules

 

P.S. test CDS exist of frequency runs at equal volume, it's wild the way they start to fluctuate in "percieved' level when they hit 'problem' areas in the room! try to borrow one, they are a bit pricey!

 

This message has been edited by Julian standen on 05-27-2001 at 10:31 PM

[hiraga]

A good tonegenerator is always nice to have (instead of a CD).. you can also use it to put some balls in a kickdrum key'ed with a gate..

[Philip OKeefe]

Hi Lee:

 

Glad to hear you have some monitors you like, and sorry to hear about your room problems. Here's some suggestions:

 

First of all, my initial guess is frequency cancellation in the low frequencies due to room geometry, but that might not be it at all. I'd say that this would almost certainly be the culprit if you had uneven bass response (some notes "jump out" while others seem to disappear). But the fact that as you turn up the bass goes DOWN leads me to think that it's a likely possibility. The first axial node of your room's 19.5' wall is 28.974 Hz. Keep adding 28.974 to that figure to get the harmonics, and do this up to about 400 Hz. Then let's look at the other dimesnions. The fundamental of the 24' wall is 23.54 Hz. Keep adding 23.54 to that (up to about 400 Hz) and write that down in a second list. The height... well, I don't know the exact height... Take V (speed of sound - approx. 1,130 Feet / Sec.) divided by H (room height) divided by two to get the fundamental. If the room ceiling is irregular, take the average height.

 

Run all three of these lists of numbers in side by side rows. Anywhere where you see lots of similar (or the same) frequencies showing up is a potential problem - especially if all three rows have the same number at any point. At those frequencies, your room will "go off like a cannon". Anywhere with lots of large gaps (doubtful due to the size of your room, although the low ceiling is a problem...) are a concern too.

 

This will give you an idea of where your room's problems are - low frequency wise. Another thing you can do is slowly sweep an oscillator from 20 Hz up to about 1 KHz and listen from the mix position.... listen for any frequencies that "drop out" (or down) as well as any that "jump out".

 

Yeah, it's a hassle, but we have to know what we're dealing with first before we just throw money at it to try to take care of it. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif

 

Personally, I'd set up along one of the SHORTER walls if I had your room, and set the couch on the wall directly behind me, and the gear along the side (long) walls.

 

I also have to disagree with the idea of making the front of the room live and the back end dead. I personally like the LEDE approach... front end dead (ceilings and wallls) all the way back to the mix position, with traps and diffusers on the rear walls and in the room corners.

 

You ARE setting the monitors equal distant from the walls (side and "front" of the room) and about a meter apart from each other, right? your head shold be equal distant from each monitor... I think the height might be an issue (floor to ceiling) but I prefer to have the tweeters at about ear level on nearfields....

 

There's a design for inexpensive bass traps that might be of use to you here:

 

http://www.ethanwiner.com/articles.html

 

You're looking for the article called "build a better bass trap". It's also got some additional info you might find of use.

 

Let me know how it's going and call me landline if you run into any problems....

 

 

Phil O'Keefe

Sound Sanctuary Recording

Riverside CA

http://members.aol.com/ssanctuary/index.html

email: pokeefe777@msn.com

 

 

 

 

This message has been edited by pokeefe777@msn.com on 05-28-2001 at 06:27 PM

[strat0124]

Lee, wondering if the placement of these monitors is the culprit. I used to have my monitors a bit high, and my mixes were always bass heavy, cause I was cranking it to "hear" it. After I repositioned my monitors, my mixes are WAY better. Notice I use WAY alot? Ha Ha!!!! It's amazing how much difference placement makes. Also, your power amp has alot to do with it all.......of course compared to alot of home studios mine is very lo tech and simplistic. But aside from audiophile type specs, it's easy to get close without resorting to breaking out the slide rule and getting super technical.

[Mark LaCoste]

Hi Lee,

 

I'm moving into a new room right now, set my monitors up in it just yesterday. When I sat in the chosen "mixing position" my heart sank. The Bass just... dissapeared! It comes back if you stand elsewhere in the room. That's a clue that my room has a great big bass cancellation mode right where I wanted to sit. In your room is the bass weak everywhere, or does it's strength change depending on your position? If it changes from place to place you've got cancellation going on, your monitors are probably fine, but you gotta move them.

 

-mark lacoste

[Guest]

Lee -

I'll go out on a limb here and suggest something I haven't seen in any of the other responses - Reverse the wiring on one of the speakers.

 

(you might be experiencing phase cancellation, which will have the most effect on the bass end).

 

- Philbo

www.mp3.com/tangent

[seclusion]

Hey I can help ya here...

I've used some of that compressed insulation for sound..

Sorry I forget the name but it's an ugly off yellow color.. Hard insulation

I wrapped it in 2mil plastic to keep the stink out and put it on a plywood backing covered with your choice of cloth..

Right behind the speakers starting at 2 feet above and below the speakers drywall screw in 2 3X5 boards..

Do the same on the ceiling around the mix position...

Throw a couch somewhere behind the mix position..

Carpet on the floor leave a bit in the mix postion to roll around..

Any hallways or open area's into the room block them off..

I had a set of stairs that went through the one side of mine and god did it make the room echoy..

Good luck...

I did this for $150.00 and the major cost was the nice cloth I bought..

Make sure there aren't any eq's/boosting etc on your speakers..

Brian

[Lee Flier]

philbo -

 

Good thought, but these are active monitors, and I'm just using TRS cables to go from my recorder to the monitors. Still though, I figured you might be right, and if that were the case I should hear a dramatic increase in the bass if I listened through only one monitor. I just tried it and there is really no difference. So I guess it's not that.

 

mark -

 

Yes there are differences in the bass response depending on where I go in the room. There are definitely some places where it's stronger than others, although nowhere does the bass sound as totally obnoxious as it does when I play my mixes on consumer systems.

 

I am going to try moving them around a bit though, and also it's very likely I will be building some of Ethan Winer's bass traps; I've been discussing the issue with him too.

 

Jules: I've rolled off the highs as much as the monitors will let me, and tried all of the different LF settings. Doesn't seem to make too much difference.

 

--Lee

[ricknbokker]

Lee-

You could always do what I've been doing for the last 5 years. It really sucks, but I've gotten used to it.

 

Regardless of how I set up my listening area, or where I put the stupid monitors, I can never get them to sound like what the real world hears. Soooo... after hours and hours and hours (you get the point) of recording, I now know how bad to make the mix sound in order for it to sound good on real-world sources. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/eek.gif

 

I know...very lame. Pay no attention to me. Fix it the right way. However, if all else fails...

 

Btw, how about a nice EQ?

Steve

 

This message has been edited by ricknbokker on 05-29-2001 at 04:50 PM

[sign]

Hi Lee

 

In my opinion you need a couple of (inexpensive) bass traps to improve the bass response of the room.

 

Peace.

[dhmusicmindspring.com]

FWIW...(this is the cheap way)

I would start by 'breaking up' the opposing walls. From your description of the room you've got a kind of long and low rectangular room. You also might wanna try some foam 'bass traps'... in the upper corners (where the ceiling and the corners meet)...Maybe put up some filled wooden bookcases to break up the parallel surfaces. That's the cheap wayto do it. Make sure there's some insulation behind the monitors...that they're not just backed up to drywall. The low end will splatter all over the place.

Every little thing you add to a room can help it, you just have to listen a bunch to stuff you like, and what you 'know'. After a certain point it seems to me you just get to where you can live with the room, and its little quirks.

[Pro Jules]

Please describe the distance of the speakers from the "back wall'. Are they right up against it or a few feet away or what? - this is not clear.

I fell for the theory that if the speakers can't be at least 3 feet from the wall - they had better be RIGHT ON IT. (as the in-between distance is more likely to mess with stuff apparently). At an artists house, I helped sort a monitoring problem of very low bass responce - by reducing as much HF AS I could then moving the speakers right up against the back wall (power cables permitting, but even right angled ones can be purchased to get gear into a tighter space - I use em on my speakers to get in a tight as possible to my back wall!). This made a GREAT improvement and from then on - CD's he and I were familliar with sounded full, rounded and not tinny anymore....

Are you using sand or lead shot filled speaker stands? Best is a concrete pillar for each! The type you would put a bust of Beethoven on (or Kieth Richards!) - anything hollow will mess you up...

 

Also - Karen AKA Jungle Girl from KRK is a great resourse for you, why not email her and she will hook you up with someone skilled at KRK who can assist you...

 

Jules

 

This message has been edited by Julian standen on 05-31-2001 at 08:32 PM

[Lee Flier]

Steve,

 

Yes, I'm all too familiar with "knowing how bad I have to mix it". That's what I've been living with. I don't want to do that anymore! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

 

I have been discussing this with Ethan Winer and plan on building some of his handy-dandy bass traps which he outlines on his web site.

 

Jules -

 

I've heard about the "either 3 feet from the wall or no distance at all" thing, so I moved the monitors as close to the wall as possible. Really didn't help, although they are only about an inch and a half from the wall (as close as I could get them w/the cables).

 

I wasn't aware that it wasn't good to use hollow stands! Sand filled, eh? That would really work? I was wanting to build some new speaker stands anyhow, I don't have proper ones and they are not at the right height. I bet that would help a lot, actually!

 

Thanks for the suggestions guys, keep 'em coming if you have any more!

 

--Lee

[Curve Dominant]

Lee,

 

I was lurking on this thread without any intention of posting, because, as you know, my methods can be somewhat...not always what the "pros" do. But, you said "keep the suggestions coming," and I've been getting some positive responses to my mixes lately, so, here goes...

 

Get a hold of a pair of consumer home-stereo speakers, put 'em on the floor (maybe with a single foam tile under each one), and use that as a cross-reference. I dicked around with different monitors for years before I finally went to one of those hole-in-the-wall electronics stores in center city, run by an Israeli immigrant named Avi, and bought a pair of Technics SB-LX50's for $120, ya know the kind that are like 2 feet by 1 foot?, and I've been using them ever since. My attitude is: this is what Jane and Joe Schmoe listen to music on, so that's gonna be my point of reference. Local producers sometimes stop by and play me their latest mixes, and they hear all kinds of f*cked up sh*t on my system that they didn't hear in their Yamaha NS10's or whatever they're using, and so we'll put on, say, the latest Massive Attack CD as an A/B, and the difference is there. The biggest thing that I noticed is that if there's a lot of mud building up around the 80hz area, you'll definitely hear it on those consumer speakers - you'll actually feel it banging on the floor. I think the hardest thing to tackle when recording in a home project studio is getting the bass and the kick tight - there, but not boomin' all outta control, y'know what I mean? Bear in mind, I'm not saying don't have studio monitors, but I've found it helpful to listen to my tracks on consumer conditions, 'cause that's how it's gonna be listened to anyway, right?

 

Your mileage will vary...

curvedominant

[dhmusicmindspring.com]

I've also come to the conclusion that poor bass response is just a fact of life with near field monitors. Even in the best rooms I've been in, you end up A-Bing with some big boys.

My best solution at this point, having gotten my room to sound pretty good with admittedly limited resources, is ABing the near-fields with my big honkin' hi fi speakers. Then ABCing with my little cheapo computer speakers.

[dhmusicmindspring.com]

Sorry...one more thing...don't neglect matching your power amp to the speakers... Believe it or not (and I found it hard to believe at first) my bass response and whole imaging thing improved drastically when I subbed out my Hafler Transnova (generally regarded as a good choice) with this thing called a 'Samson'....it rocks. No comparison. Really.

Go figure.

[Curve Dominant]

>>big honkin' hi fi speakers.<<

 

Exactly! That's what I'm talkin' bout. If it sounds good on those, you halfway there. And, dhmusic, you mentioned the lil' computer speakers: I know a local jazz musician who tells me he's had some success monitoring on those when he mixes. Now, I wouldn't use those exclusively, Lord knows, but for a cross-reference, it will save you a trip to the car.

 

curve

[alphajerk]

lee, seeing how i know exactly what your room is like since i have been in it check this out for a minute. i REALLY doubt they are exciting that size of a room that easily with strong first reflections, especially with the back wall being so far back [relatively]

 

i notice a HUGE lack of bass in nearfields when you are too close to them. i have the SAME exact problem, those last mixes you heard i was fighting with the bassist about his levels because i knew how to compensate... needless to say i quit that fight and gave into him anyways... so its a bass heavy cd, fuckit. anyways, try spreading the speakers out a little so when you are about 6' away the speakers make the classic equilateral triangle [think about how far away you are on a largeframe when they are on the bridge, at least 4'... more than the typical home studio distance over the board] anyways, i move the speakers back some and wham, the bass came flying out [could of been room nodes too], check out the new mixes i sent you the other day... much better right? [the unlabeled cd]

 

now it could very well be a node, have you thought about rearranging the room setting those speakers in several locations while walking around until you find the sweet spot of the room? i just really have a hard time thinking the room is imparting MUCH, its a pretty large room, it COULD be floor to ceiling, maybe some foam above you on the ceiling [or similar solution] you have acoustic tiles though right? i would also try dampening the wall behind the speakers for sure. i would outright deaden the shit out of it.

[Curve Dominant]

Ya know, not for anything, but AJ's post got me thinking...what if ya put your bass soaks (or some kind of acoustic tiling) at the upper corners of the front wall, and pointed the backs of the monitors directly at the soaks? Either that, or wall off the front corners of the room at 45 degrees, and angle the monitors at 15 degrees or so out from the front wall, so that the diffusion is consistent towards the centre of the room? Does this make sense?

 

It's that tile floor that makes me wonder. I would carpet that sucker, but what do I know? Fletcher, are you lurking?

 

curve

[djarrett]

Hey, Lee

I was missing you over at Drum Talk and thought I would try to be helpful to you over here!

Jeff Hedback at Auralex sends this info:

"Too much bass or too little bass in a small room is a

function of the same problem- standing waves. The solution for both issues

is the same- absorbing the low frequency information before the build up

occurs...thus our LENRD bass traps which are effective down to about 80 Hz.

Lower than that there are ways (application specific) to address such

issues. Also, corner trapping reduces tangential waves not axial (which are very difficult to reduce in small rooms)."

 

I have 4 of these bass traps (free-standing) in my little studio and they made all the difference in the world! Inexpensive as well!

 

Thanks,

DJ

[alphajerk]

no, too much carpet kills a room quick. drums sound MUCH better on tile/hardwood. an area rug or two might help but i really doubt it.

 

i would take that futon mattress and put a pole through it and hang it from the ceiling behind the speakers. or maybe a queen sized mattress slid behind the monitors... it least just to test if the front wall reflection is to blame... i just remember the other walls being a good distance from your mix position... but that day i had what, 3 hours sleep the night before http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif

 

hey, when you make it up this way we can build some diffusors, you got that jeep to take them back. hang some of those around the studio walls... or make them mobile. so you can put em where you need em. if it is standing waves, breaking them up is the best thing to do. try some of those trashcan bass traps... super cheap to build.

[Lee Flier]

Thanks much for all the great ideas guys!

 

Curve: I think you are right on the money with your suggestion to get some big hifi speakers for comparison. Right now, I am lugging my AW4416 up to my living room and listening on my own stereo which has a sub. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif Maybe I just need to get a sub! And I don't think the tile floor is a problem - it's not reflective tile, it's that soft vinyl/clay tile like on grocery store floors. I do have an area rug at one end of the room, fairly close to the mix station, and my drumkit is sitting on a rug as well. And yes I have acoustic tile ceilings which absorb quite a lot.

 

I think the first order of business would be to get the monitors on something more solid and space them better, as Jules and Alpha suggest. Then put bass traps in the corners and maybe some foam directly behind the monitors to minimize those reflections. If I'm still not happy, maybe I'll get one of those Radio Shack powered subs and switch it on and off for comparison. Those things actually sound pretty decent and should help me in tightening up the bottom end.

 

And who knows Alpha I may take you up on that offer to help me build some diffusers!

 

You guys rock! Thanks for all the ideas.

 

--Lee

[Pro Jules]

If you live alone, (barring pets) how about a CCTV link to the bacement and make a corner of your living room the Control room?

http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/eek.gif

Jules