RECORDING HELP

[KARL FISHER]

I enjoy home recording, and would like to direct record from my Peavey Classic 100 Head. The signal to my cassette deck's "mic" input was too fuzzy, so I just got a Behringer DI-100 Direct box. The signal on playback is still fuzzy!! I have tried recording from the "effects send", and from the "out" on my 4X12 cab. Padding the signal with the Direct Box by 20 or 40 db just lowers the overall volume level. Even lowering the input levels on the cassette deck so the meters barely light does not help. I do not experience this problem when I record at the same volume level using the "clean" channel. Someone please help!!

 

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[Guest]

"direct record from my Peavey Classic 100 Head"

 

Hmmm. The problem that you may be experiencing (notice that I said, "may be" as I can't hear what's actually happening) is that direct recording from a guitar head not designed for it yields some pretty nasty results.

 

The desirable sound that you hear from an amp's speaker cabinet is a direct result of that nasty, fuzzy signal from the amp interacting with the cabinet's speaker(s), structural material, and acoustic design. That interaction causes a huge difference in what frequencies are prominent and not so prominent in the final sound that you hear. This same thing happens when you play clean, but distortion/ overdrive illustrates it even more dramatically. Note that running the signal from the "out" of your cab will not fix this, as that signal did not interact with the above, it just passed through the wiring.

 

If your problem is indeed the above (and not distortion caused by a broken component, or overloading something in the signal chain) then you have some choices:

 

1. Buy a cabinet emulator that does only that.

 

2. Buy a guitar processor like a POD, SansAmp, one of the Zoom boxes with amp/ cabinet simulation, etc.

 

3. Find a way to EQ the signal.

 

Number 3 is probably the cheapest choice, and will probably be the best learning experience. The biggest source of the nastiness will probably be the highs, and you'll probably end up doing a fair amount of surgery on the mids too. (It all depends on the sound you want.)

 

Another thing to consider is that sending (what I would presume to be) speaker level output (which can range from around line level voltage to nothing even close to it) from the amp or the 4X12's "out" to a mic level (yikes) or a line level input is not the best idea, and may be aggravating the problem. If the Behringer DI-100 can accept speaker level and get it down to mic/ line level, then great. If not, I would stick with the effects send from the amp, which is line level.

 

Good luck, and whatever you do, have fun! (Just don't cook your gear.)

 

-Danny

 

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Of all the things that I have lost, I miss my mind the most.

[Punchmo]

Why not try a 57 on the speaker?

[KARL FISHER]

I GUESS I SHOULD HAVE SPECIFIED, I AM TRYING TO ELIMINATE THE BACKGROUND NOISE IE; KIDS PLAYING, ECT. I DO HAVE AN EQ, BUT HAVE NOT TRIED ADJUSTING THE SOUND YET BETWEEN THE DIRECT BOX AND THE CASSETTE DECK. WOULD UTILIZING THE EQ MAKE MUCH DIFFERENCE?

 

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[Guest]

Hah, hah, hah, hee, hee, hmm, ohhhhhhh man. Skp, that was absolutely the perfect thing to say. I launch into this massive technical workaround, and in less than ten words you slam the whole thing into the ground. You rock.

 

Now the unfortunate problem, is that this doesn't get Karl over his hurdle, because he wants to record direct to kill off extraneous noise. (As I gather from his most recent post.)

 

"I DO HAVE AN EQ, BUT HAVE NOT TRIED ADJUSTING THE SOUND YET BETWEEN THE DIRECT BOX AND THE CASSETTE DECK. WOULD UTILIZING THE EQ MAKE MUCH DIFFERENCE?"

 

If the problem is what I think it is, then yes, utilizing EQ will make a huge difference. However, I would not recommend putting the EQ after the DI. The reason for this is because that DI's sole purpose in life is to convert line/ speaker level signal into mic level signal. That EQ is almost certainly a line level device, unless it is part of an outboard mic pre. (Of course, even in that case, it's probably still a line level device, it just happens to be in the same box as the mic preamplifier and is getting the signal after the pre boosts it up to line level.) What all of this blather means to you is that a signal that is much too weak will be introduced into the EQ if you put it after the DI. (I'm not even going to start talking about balanced/ unbalanced issues right now.)

 

Now, an interesting twist is if the EQ is part of a mixer, in which case you won't have the above problem.

 

My suggestion then, is (if indeed that EQ is a standalone device) to run the effects send from the amp to the EQ, then run the output of the EQ to the DI. Be careful not to distort the EQ by sending it too much level. Now experiment. Try cutting the highs to various degrees and playing around with the mids and lows. The flexibility of the EQ will make a big difference in what you can achieve with it, but you should be able to at least rough things in.

 

Keep trying, and keep asking questions. I'm sure there are more than enough of us on this board to get you to a workable solution. Please remember as well that we all have to assume a few things, because we're not in the room with you. (If we didn't assume anything we couldn't even begin to formulate a suggestion for you.) If things need a different approach, let us know.

 

-Danny

 

 

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Of all the things that I have lost, I miss my mind the most.

 

This message has been edited by Danny At Tiara Music on 05-19-2001 at 02:34 AM

[KARL FISHER]

DANNY... YOU DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH I APPRECIATE YOUR HELP. I WILL TRY YOUR SUGGESTIONS THIS WEEKEND. IF IT HELPS, THE EQ IS A RACK MOUNTED NADY GEQ-215. IT OFFERS EITHER 6 OR 12 db OF BOOST/CUT. THE EQ HAS BALANCED LO-Z, BALANCED 1/4 INCH AND UNBALACED PHONO INS AND OUTS. SHOULD I RUN 1/4 INCH OUT OF MY EFFECTS SEND OR SPEAKER CAB "OUT" JACK TO THE EQ, AND THEN FROM THE EQ'S OUT TO THE DIRECT BOX AND THEN INTO THE CASSETTE DECK? THE ONLY PROB. WITH THIS IS THE D.B. "OUT" IS BALACED LO-Z, AND THE CASSETTE "IN" IS EITHER 1/4 INCH MONO OR PHONO PLUG. THANKS, KARL

 

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[Guest]

Just got a look at that GEQ-215 over at the Musician's Friend website, which gives me some helpful insight. Okay, here we go, in order:

 

"DANNY... YOU DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH I APPRECIATE YOUR HELP."

 

Well, I hope that it does indeed help, as opposed to making you more frustrated, or being targeted at the wrong problem all together.

 

"SHOULD I RUN 1/4 INCH OUT OF MY EFFECTS SEND OR SPEAKER CAB "OUT" JACK TO THE EQ, AND THEN FROM THE EQ'S OUT TO THE DIRECT BOX AND THEN INTO THE CASSETTE DECK? THE ONLY PROB. WITH THIS IS THE D.B. "OUT" IS BALACED LO-Z, AND THE CASSETTE "IN" IS EITHER 1/4 INCH MONO OR PHONO PLUG."

 

Take the 1/4" out of the effects send of the amp (remember, that speaker cab output is probably a lot higher than line level) and take it into one of the channels of the EQ. Now, take the 1/4" output of the EQ channel you're using, and put it into the tape deck. No DI box. Also, to avoid as much future frustration as possible, you should find a way to listen to ONLY the signal that has passed through the EQ. (I get a mild suspicion that you are not.) Ideally, you should monitor out of your tape deck if you can, as it will give you a better idea of what the EQ AND the deck's electronics are doing to your signal.

 

Now, as you play, listen carefully as you change settings on the EQ. If you have the same Nady GEQ-215 that I am looking at right now (isn't the web wonderful?), set the range to +/- 12 dB. Cut 4k 3dB, cut 6.3k 6dB, cut 10k 9dB, and cut 16k all 12dB. This is pretty darn dramatic, but it's a starting point that should have nuked the nasty fuzz. It will probably sound too dark (lacking highs). That's okay, because the next part is pure experimentation. Start pushing sliders up and down, and see what you like and don't like. Yank out some 630Hz and see what happens. Push it up, see what happens. Push those high mid and high frequency sliders up one at a time, and see which one gives you the nastiest sound when raised. Boost and cut a couple adjacent bands together and listen to the result.

 

Anyway, it's 2:00 AM where I am and I need to be awake for a mixing session tomorrow. Besides, my thinking is beginning to cloud up a bit. Go as far as you can, and I'll check this thread out tomorrow to see how you're doing.

 

Good luck! (I should actually say "Good skill!" because I've found that luck has very little to do with anything.)

 

-Danny

 

 

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Of all the things that I have lost, I miss my mind the most.

[masternfool]

Danny, take the behringer DI back, lose the EQ, and go get either a sansamp or POD guitar simulator!! If you don't play out live you can even sell the Peavey guitar amp. You'll waste a lot of time and effort trying to record direct from a peavey. They're good amps for live, not recording.

Best Harry

[GZsound]

Peavey amps are not good for recording? I beg to differ. The problem sounds like a driven signal going into a mic level input. A preamp output from the amp needs to go to a line level mixer first and then into the Cassette deck, or to a speaker input on the direct box.

 

I don't want to start a Peavey vs. anybody else war here, but a Peavey amp can sound great and there must be hundreds musicians out there that have used them on national releases. I think every country band in the world uses Peavey amps. My guitar player uses a Peavey Bandit with a Zoom box and gets just about any sound we possibly want out of it. Just learn to use what you have...

 

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Mark G.

[Guest]

Hi folks, just clarifying my position here.

 

In my first post, I told Karl to go the POD/ SansAmp/ Cab Simulator route if he could, but that EQ might be a cheaper way to get acceptable results. (It is. I've done it successfully. It's not the best of course, but it does work.) If only he had 4 bands of fully parametric EQ, instead of a graphic... The bottom line is that I wanted to start him off using gear he had handy.

 

As for levels, right now I'm just trying to get Karl to put line level into line level devices. I know he's not getting the best S/N to tape right now, but one thing at a time.

 

-Danny

 

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Of all the things that I have lost, I miss my mind the most.