Valve power

[shane_dup2]

I've wondering about this question for some time.

 

Back in the day when all things were valve, what kind of power amps did bands use and what sort of powers were available per unit or for the overall PA. I guess that big loud rock concerts had to wait for transistor technology but when did this start to take over?

 

Are high power valves still available?

 

any knowlege/links/old timers with experience would be really interesting

 

toodleoo

[videoeditor1]

Shane,

 

I assume "valve" means "tube"

 

Originally posted by shane:

I've wondering about this question for some time.

 

Back in the day when all things were valve, what kind of power amps did bands use and what sort of powers were available per unit or for the overall PA. I guess that big loud rock concerts had to wait for transistor technology but when did this start to take over?

 

Are high power valves still available?

 

any knowlege/links/old timers with experience would be really interesting

 

toodleoo

[hiraga]

Depends on if you're NYC Drew or UK Drew..

[DC]

Back when I was short (60's) the PA's I remember where those massive Shure VocalMaster systems. Huge Column speakers and a head which was tube I believe. I'd also be interested in what was used at say; Beatles at Shea Stadium to power the PA.

 

In the 70's you started getting cool companys like Crown with some belting power. I've still got a 1974 Crown 300 which works like a charm.

 

You can still get high power stereo tube amps from people like Mesa Boogie and the high end hi fi companys.

 

The cool thing about tube amps is they sound twice as loud as transister amps for the same wattage. Put a meter on a 100 watt tube amp and a 100 watt transister amp and watch them putting out the same power but the tube will sound way louder to your ear.

 

Lots of people think tube amps sound sweeter (accentuate even order harmonics).

[shane_dup2]

Just to confirm that valve is UK speak for toob. (we also say a valve of toofpaste in case you're ever confused in a chemist (drugstore))

[videoeditor1]

Shane,

 

It's coming back to me know. About ..... 20++ years ago I used to hear that term....

[Emile]

Originally posted by DC:

I'd also be intBack when erested in what was used at say; Beatles at Shea Stadium to power the PA.

 

 

I don't think they had PA like now. That was one of the problems the Beatles had because the screams from the audience were louder than the music. At some point I think they even played the music through the stadium's megaphones.

 

Please correct me I wasn't even born back then.

 

Emile

[Sir Bob]

Shane is a Brit, as are my ancestors the deCarteret's from the Channel Islands (Jersey, Guernsey and Sark, not Catalina).

 

At any rate a "valve" is a good name for it because it is an accurate description of what a tube does.

 

My favorite expression from Shane's land is "iced lolly."

[Curve Dominant]

My favorite is when you miss a shot on goal, someone yells out, "Oh sorry luck!" That, and a fish & chips vendor is called "a chippa."

 

So, Shane, I got $20US on Bayern München. Ya game?

 

curvedominant

[Duhduh]

Originally posted by DC:

I'd also be interested in what was used at say; Beatles at Shea Stadium to power the PA. B]

 

From what I understand, the Beatles didnt use PA's at all. They just plugged their vocal mics into another Vox amp. If you look at old live footage, no amps or drums are even mic'ed.

[shane_dup2]

I'm no Brit - a citizen of the Republic of Ireland. But I won't take any offence since I live here in London (along with 1 million other Irish) and George Jnr probably doesn't know the difference either;-)

[nhcomp45aol.com]

The first worthwhile power amp was the Crown DC 300. It came out in 68.Crown also had some rack mounted tube amps( I saw one on ebay). The Phase Linear 700 came along around 71,These were used by Pink Floyd, Yes and Blood Sweat and Tears in the early 70s just to name a few.

[Anderton]

One of the most popular power tubes of the time was the 6L6 for medium-power applications, typically used as groups of 4 in a push-pull configuration. I used to be ham radio operator waaaaaaaay back in the old days, and power tubes were commonly available for 100 watt and even 1000 watt transmitters. Radio stations had these huge power tubes which rumor had it needed to be replaced every few weeks or so.

 

For my power amps, at the time I used a lot of the same tubes that were available for radio transmitters, particularly the 6146 -- you could push those suckers to 150 watts, easy. They really did look like bottles -- much bigger than, say, a 12AX7 -- and had a connector on the top of the tube (I think it was the anode) so you had this high-voltage wire trailing off the top. Other popular high-power tubes were the 8417 and 6550. Solid state started taking over in the 60s, though. You'd see amps with dozen of power transistors sharing the load because you couldn't find single transistors with enough ooomph.

 

I gave up on tubes a long time ago, I felt reliability was suffering even back in the early 70s. The transistor stuff didn't sound as good, but at least I knew it would push the speakers back and forth when I arrived at the gig! The only tube gear I use now on a consistent basis is the Aphex tubessence processors and the Peavey TubeFex.

[shane_dup2]

That's great information Craig.

 

Did big concerts have to wait for transistors or did they just slave loads of small amps? I know of a reggae sound system in London that operated in the seventies and used all valve power amps. The power of this sound was (and is) legendary but I doubt thta they play using valves now.

 

s

[Charlie-brm]

Did big concerts have to wait for transistors or did they just slave loads of small amps?

Shane, that's like asking if drag races waited for fuel injection. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif

You have to think Woodstock was valves, right?

 

The first transistor amps I saw were gutless economy brands because the guys maybe couldn't afford a Marshall head or a Fender (me) or because they were a convenient practice amp.

 

The thing I remember at school concerts was we could tell if the band was coming back on stage for an encore by looking at the amp's lights to see if they really switched them off or put them in stand by to keep the tubes toasty. I'm going so far back they used to all leave the stage except for the drummer when he got to do his 5 minute solo.

[Yuri T.]

I owned a Shure Vocalmaster in the mid eighties. It was a solid state 100 watt 6 channel mixer-amp. sounded so-so but just wouldn't die. Replaced by the ubiquitous Peavey XR-600, the Vocalblaster of today.

Somewhere I read about the sound system for Woodstock in 1969. No large scale PAs had really been tried yet. I think the power amps were all tube (valve) I think Macintosh amps. Something around 200 - 400 watts per amp. The total wattage for the system couldn't have been more than a couple thousand watts which is less than your average small club PA has today.

[KenElevenShadows]

>> My favorite expression from Shane's land is "iced lolly." >>

 

Sounds cool -- what is one?

 

My favorite expression from Shane's land is "sticky buns"

 

Ken/Eleven Shadows & d i t h er and Nectar

http://www.elevenshadows.com

[sign]

Yo

 

Somewhere in our studio there are two Faylon tube power amps. They have 4 EL503 tubes and that were expensive tubes i remember.

They must have some 200 watts of power and i remember the sound coming from this amps was extremely loud.

 

My son just bought a new guitar amp, guess what? A Fender tube amp, because it seems the sound was the best in his opinion.

 

Talking about expensive tubes, recently i needed a new tube for the Neumann M149, you can buy a decent amp for that amount of bucks.

 

The Beatles were using some twenty or so, kind of "pillar" speakers at Shea stadium. The drums were not amped as far as i know and nobody, including the Beatles could hear the music because of the screaming girls.

 

Some 25 years later a chap called Vangelis is pretending to have a concert (actually you could see on TV he was "playbacking" on a CD") in Rotterdam harbour and he uses a 500.000 watt PA system.

 

Talking about power, a couple of minutes ago i saw the tv news, it said 2% of the world population uses 40% of the total global power. Guess who?

And their president is talking about more oil consumption, just a step aside.

 

The best name for "tubes" i have read was i suppose by George Massenburg, or was it Fletcher? he was talking about "fire bottles" (correct me if i'm wrong).

 

I also have read somewhere that tubes are the fastest electronics, mucho faster than transistors, not bad huh?

 

It took a long time for the tubes to become popular again and i suppose there are some really fantastic new processors like Tubetech and Manley right now.

 

Peace to you all.

[Sir Bob]

Originally posted by shane:

I'm no Brit - a citizen of the Republic of Ireland. But I won't take any offence since I live here in London (along with 1 million other Irish) and George Jnr probably doesn't know the difference either;-)

 

With a name like Shane, I should have known you were Irish. My apologies to you. I understand the Irish don't care for the British.

[shane_dup2]

Don't get me wrong I'd don't have anything against the Brits.

 

Vangelis had a 1/2 million watt PA ? Holy sh*t! they must have heard that in the Falkland Islands!

 

It's really interesting about the PA at woodstock. I'm not that old but I have some live LPs from the time and they sound like loud enough concerts to me - Jimmy and Otis at Monterey anyone? If anyone has any links I'd be much obliged.

 

 

BTW, and "iced lolly" is a popsicle - and does not refer to the practice of keeping your folding stuff (money or lolly) in the freezer (icebox). Also fish and chip shops are more commonly called "chippies" but in Ireland they are called "chippers". Mostly all kebab and burger joints now anyway.

[Charlie-brm]

Little story about tubes.

Anyone remember in the late '70s a state of the art Soviet MiG pilot defected and landed his jet in Japan? While negotiations go on for its return, the Japanese and U.S. military are gutting this thing and discover all kinds of vacuum tube circuitry in the nose.

After some jokes about keeping the pilot's feet warm and how this is so sadly backward, someone points out that tubes are almost immune to the EMF from a nuclear blast, unlike solid state. Nobody was laughing much after that.

Last we saw of that jet it was being loaded by forklift into a transport back to Russia as a set of wooden crates.

Ah, those Japanese and their model airplane kits. Gotta love 'em.

[S_Gould]

Isn't life strange...? I ran into a guy today who helped set up the P.A. at Woodstock. He told me the power was Crown & 200 watt McIntosh amps that weighed almost 100 lbs. each. The speakers were JBL, Altec-Lansing & some custom built horn arrays. He said they used very little low frequency by today's standards, because it sucked up too much power. Take this with a grain of salt, but FWIW I believe him, because he said some things that a bullshitter just wouldn't think of making up.

 

Scott