alphajerk.. Our MOTU man on the crime scene.. I have some questions..

[hiraga]

Or to anyone else who can answer these (probably simple) questions..

 

I'm thinking about getting two MOTU 1296 & DP3. I want to record 24 tracks and do editing, that's all. No mixing, plugs, no mastering, no synthz, no other software at all.. Quite simple. Everything else, the mixing, takes place outside this combo, in the analog domain.

 

What MAC do I need for this? A G3, a G4, or some older Mac? I can get second hand Macs quite cheaply, so it would be nice if I could use one of those. Which one?

 

Future expansion options doesn't matter.

 

What about HD?

[hiraga]

Oh yeah, stability is the key issue. If the Mac/DP3 combo starts acting wierd, I'll go bonkers.. I do N*O*T like computers, but there's no way around it, for what I need.. Looked at the Mackie/Tascam 24tr, but not too hot on those. RADAR too expensive..

 

And I do NOT want PhewwTools.. I'm a rebel! Here in Scandinavia we all have blond hair, Volvos, Ikea furniture and Protools, so I want DP, Volvo & Ikea..

[KHAN]

Something like a beige G3-300 should do just fine and they are going pretty cheap these days. If you are going 24 bit 96k you are going to need a fast hard drive. Probably 10,000rpm. Even with that, I'm not sure how many tracks you will get at 24/96. With an older Mac, you will have to go SCSI with the HD so you might have to look into a SCSI card as well.

[Sergievsky]

Well, you don't need a G4, and G3 will probably give you over 40, so even an older 9600 will suffice. The internal IDE HD is also enough, no need for SCSI, and probably should avoid it. You don't even need DP, since the interface will come with basically the audio part of DP, though maybe not the super new revised look of DP3. But if you want version 3, well, don't know about that since it's supposed to be compatible with OSX and that might have issues with the older Macs. New OS doesn't always mix well with old hardware.

And you just THINK you don't need or want to run plugs. Once you start messing with the plug automation with values in beats and not arbitrary numbers...and so on.

2.72 has been solid as a rock for me and my G4 though, that is until I downloaded the quicktime5preview(the last one before the official release). big mistake. pushed my luck. Anyway, got rid of it and all is back to rock solidland.

Let us know about the soundquality of the 1296. goodluck.

 

Raul

[hiraga]

Thanx KHAN! (Where's da smilies??)..

 

Trackcount. I want 24, nothing more, nothing less. And I want 24 ALL the time, and I want 'em at 24 bit 96kHz ALL the time. But I do want more tracks.

 

Just think of the combo as selfcontianed HD recorder like a RADAR.

 

I don't know jack about HDs, but I'll get whatever it takes. If a 10k or 15k RPM is needed I'll get that.

 

Again, I wan't it rock stable.

 

Is there any risk using an older Mac? Any benefit in using a G4?

 

How much RAM?

 

Money is not an issue, but I don't want a G4 if I don't gain anything.

[hiraga]

Thanx Raul!

 

I didn't know that about DP. So if I buy 2x MOTU 1296, I don't need to buy DP3 (DP 2.72)? Is the editing dif from the fullblown DP?

 

Plugs suck by the mile, so no I won't be needing them. I do everything in the analog domain. This setup is for and me only. I need only compability with my brain and music. Not the outside world.

 

So, a 9600 is enough? Good, I got one of those somewhere...

[Scott Fehl]

My single G4 400 can do 24 @ 24/48 with no problem (w/ 60 gig 7200 RPM ATA). CPU usage, I believe, is still under 50%. At 96k CPU usage should about double.

 

I would get a dual 533 which will make things run smoother and keep the system from getting jerky and slow. Also, when you have a lot of files and edits the same number of tracks can drive up the CPU usage.

 

At $2500 here is the US, the dual 533 is the value leader.

 

BTW: In addition to the dual processor and 133MHz faster chip, the new machines have a 133MHz system bus. That machine should be able to do 24 tracks at 24/96 without getting anywhere close to choking.

[hiraga]

Just for the record, I'm not lazy - I have done my research, but one thing I do know fer sure 'bout computers, you need to ask folks that are actually running a similar system!

 

All in all, I don't care if it's DP, PT or whatever. I just want 24tr at 24/96 with editing possibilities at maximun stability, hence no PCs. PCs blow up on me. I've blown up four PCs at work, and I only use 'em for boring business work. My boss is a *little* tired with me.. It's nothing technical, it's just a regular curse... I'm a bit keen on SoundScape, but it's not 96k, I think. Too bad, I can get it at really nice prices and I know my way around it.

[hiraga]

Thanx Scott!

 

So your 50% CPU usage, is that with a bunch of plugs too? I'm not a total editing freak, but I'm not sure much I'm gonna do. So I need some headroom.

 

It looks I do need a G4 afterall then? A 533MHz you say. Don't even wanna tell you what Macs cost in my country... but it's a wee bit more..

[Sergievsky]

I take back the 9600, forgot about the 96khz. Alpha should be able to answer that one. The key here is the RAM. They're so cheap. The more you have the more you'll be able to allocate to the software's cache, which means less work on the hard disk and cpu which amounts to more tracks. My G4 is a 350MHZ with 640mb of RAM. The 512mb ram chip I bought to bring it up to 640 did make the whole system run smoother.

 

The Mac software included is called Audiodesk and from what I've gathered from the manual it's the audio portion of DP. (2.72) Not sure if they will make an upgrade for it, or if it will coincide with DP3. My guess is several months after DP3 is released. In the meantime you don't need it, since the editing is really good as it is. And by the time you master everything in it and the little things like the wiper and zooming behavior starts bugging you then I'm sure the upgrade will be available. But then again I don't know anyone who works for MOTU and I live on the other side of the Pacific ocean so what the fuck do I know. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif

 

Raul

[hiraga]

Thanx Man..

 

Dunno anyone who works for MOTU either.. a drag. I'm not used to pay full price.. hehe.. and I live on the other side of the Ocean too..

 

So I don't need to buy DP, but I do need a G4, a 533MHz.

 

Whaddaya think aj?

[Scott Fehl]

hiraga,

 

That is without running plug-ins. I will do a little test tonight and let you know. A dual 533 is not the minimum system requirement for what you want to do, I just think it is the best choice since it is only $300 more than the single and it will run real smooth.

 

You can do with less, but it gets to be a pain when you are running at 90%. My advice to someone is that once you define what your requirements are in terms of track count, sampling rates, and plug-ins; be able to do that with out going past 80% CPU load in a real world situation with lots of files and edits.

 

If export pricing is that bad, then I would say a single 533Mhz is still more than enough. BTW: I also agree on the RAM comment, since I upgrade to 512, everything runs smoother.

 

I will let you know tonight what my results are. I think that on my machine 24 tracks at 24/48 is like 35% to 40% w/ no plug-ins.

 

Kind of like a power supply, you can run it to the max, but you don't want to.

[Hippie]

Definately go the SCSI route if you can afford it.

I'm doin' the PC, MOTU, Cakewalk, ADATS rig, and I could never get 16 tracks in and out of the computer, without headaches, until I upgraded to SCSI. I think it is more important than processor speed, by your listed requirements. It looks to me like you will be doing little processing, and a lot of writing to disk, so be on the lookout for drives that have a high read/write rating. AlphaJ......? (He's probably got the cans on real loud!)

 

-Hippie

[ABECK]

RAM is not the most important factor with DP. You don't need as much as you would think. I have 288MEGS and it is just fine. However, RAM is so cheap right now, you might as well get as much as you can afford. I would consider getting an external HD to record audio on and run the program on your internal HD. My next purchase is going to be a nice speedy SCSI card and a large external HD. I've had a few occasions where I've chocked the computer on incoming audio, because I was tracking to the internal HD (same drive I was running the program on)

Just curious though - why are you so adamant about 96K?

Andrew

[KHAN]

posted by hiraga:

>>>Plugs suck by the mile, so no I won't be needing them.

 

----------------------------------------------

 

If you do go with DP/Audiodesk I suggest you try the Waves 3.0 demo and then re-evaluate that statement...

 

Smilies, I don't need no stinkin' smilies!!!

http://cwm.ragesofsanity.com/contrib/dvv/esmil2.gif

[Nika]

Hiraga,

 

I can give you my credentials later if you wish. For now I'll just dig in.

 

First, the 1296's come with a piece of software called "Audiodesk" which is an audio only version of Digital Performer, but at version 2.3. This dates the software to about 2 years ago, and while it is capable of doing what you want it to do THEORETICALLY, I don't believe that it will really work for you under working environments. Further, I don't believe that Audiodesk supports 96kS/s formats, so you'll need to purchase Digital Performer.

 

Yes, Digital Performer will ALSO get you MIDI functionality that you have no need for, but kindly ignore that. DP3 is not available yet, but by purchasing the latest version as an upgrade from Audiodesk you will entitle yourself to a free upgrade to DP3 when it is available (still slated second quarter this year).

 

As for the computer, I would recommend no less than the G4/733. The G4/466 and the G4/533 I believe will be too slow for what you intend to do even though you are not interested in effects. The computer's processor is responsible for a lot more than just the effects. The G4/533 dual processor will be of little benefit to you because MOTU is not currently taking advantage of the second processor for anything that will take a load off of your first processor. The G4/667 is also no longer available, so I believe your choices are fixed. Wait, scrap that. You said that priority #1 was that it was "Rock Solid"?? You only have one choice - the G4/733. I don't know what computer system Alpha has, but just one track of 96k was causing his computer to hiccup. I think I'd recommend 384Meg of RAM in the computer as well.

 

Next, the harddrives. While THEORETICALLY you will be able to stream the tracks that you're speaking of off of a 10k RPM SCSI drive, I'd recommend a dual SCSI drive array, each with one 10k RPM SCSI drive. My concern is that one word that you casually threw around......."editing". It's the editing that will choke your harddrives, not necessarily the streaming itself. The drives have a difficult time following all of the pointers when you have a complex session with compound edits happening frequently. I generally go by Digi's recommendation. Digi recommends for 48 tracks of 24 bit to have two 10k drives on two separate SCSI busses if you want to stay away from problems due to editing. If you want that performance out of a MOTU system I'd recommend the same, and 48 tracks of 24 bit 48k is the same as 24 tracks of 24 bit 96k.

 

You want rock solid? Here's what you buy:

 

G4/733 w/ 384 meg of RAM

1296 core

1296 i/o

Digital Performer upgrade

ATTO dual SCSI card (don't forget the cables)

A pair of external 10k SCSI harddrives (with terminators)

A good backup system.

An AardsyncII wordclock generator. You want 96k? I expect you're getting a good masterclock!!

 

Does that help?

 

Thanx!

Nika.

[Scott Fehl]

OK here are the results of my test;

 

System

 

G4 400 Mhz single

512 ram

60 gig 7200RPM Maxtor ATA drive

1224 w/ all outputs enabled

24 tracks @ 24/48 with edits and fader automation

 

No Effects

512 sample buffer: CPU usage was at 25% w/ peaks at 30% to 35%

1024 sample buffer: CPU usage at 20%

 

With 4 ren comps & 4 ren eqs

512 sample buffer: 55% CPU usage w/ peaks at 60%

1024 sample buffer; 50% CPU usage

 

I would about double all these figures when running 96kHZ

 

You need some headroom in CPU usage when you add more audio interfaces and enable more outputs as well as for entering record mode to do over dubs or whatever.

 

I would say that my g4 400 single would be the bare min for 24 tracks of 24/96, as long as you plan on running practilly no plug-ins or adding more tracks.

 

I would disagree w/ Nika on the 733. I would go with a dual 533 from every thing I have heard. This is based upon talking to guys at MOTU, an engineer at Apple, and independant benchmark tests.

 

Please do a search on this topic as this has been discussed several times in the last month or so.

[Nika]

Originally posted by Scott Fehl:

I would disagree w/ Nika on the 733. I would go with a dual 533 from every thing I have heard. This is based upon talking to guys at MOTU, an engineer at Apple, and independant benchmark tests.

 

Even for no effects? The biggest usage on that second processor seems to be with effects that people are writing for. I'm not sure what the benefit for Hiraga will be of the second processor in his "tracking like a tape deck" system.

 

Nika.

[alphajerk]

NO NO NO NO NO! GET THE FASTEST FUCKING MACHINE ON THE PLANET THEY HAVE TO OFFER!!!! i would seriously wait for the dual733's or better yet, the quad 1ghz [rumour]. 96khz KILLS your machine, its a bit more complex than doubling your processing [i get 30+ tracks at 24/48 so i SHOULD get 15 according to that logic...ONE! not even]. my 9600 was brought to a complete standstill practically [well maybe a little exaggeration] but ONE track wasnt feasibly possible.... 24 times that? i dont think so.

 

the 1296 kicks ass BTW. its the perfect i/o... 12 in 12 out, two makes 24. i want another already.

 

WAIT until DP3 is released, then buy the G4 [or G5]

 

stability, if you know what you are doing with a mac, no problem what so ever... i have crashed ONCE and that was for adding one too many plugins on a massive mix, IOW MY OWN FAULT, not some bug.

 

 

and yes, multiple HD's running on the ATTO [nothing less] with ultra160 or scsi3 [if it comes out] with 10k drives... BIG ONES [72GB]

 

 

besides, you want nothing less than the 733 due to the superDVD drive for backing up all that info and the increased motherboard bus speed.

 

one other thing, what i did record... i heard no benefit of 96khz to 48khz... except maybe moving the filters higher up.

[hiraga]

Thanx Everybody - You're da experts..

 

Scott, we have some heavy taxes over here, that's why justa 'bout anything is 20-30% more expensive. And yes, I don't want to run the system at 90%. Thanx for PSU analogy, I dig that. I run 'em at 1-5%, but I don't have the money for a CRAY.. haha..

 

Hippie, I'm not sure about SCSI, but I'll decide later, when I'm a little smarter..

 

ABECK, I want to run 96k, because I think it sounds better than 44.1/48k. Simple as that.

 

KHAN, I DO know the Wawes stuff. I've worked with it, and no, I'm not impressed. It's all about how I work, and I only like to work with my own stuff.

 

Nika, your credentials are impeccable, old boy.. Yes, I thought about that last nite, about the DP being able to run 96k. I certainly DON'T want a system that's *theoretical*, but real as in won't crash, unless I do something stupid (quite likely!). No interest in MIDI, I have another system for that. So, I need two HDs?

 

Editing. Something like 5-50 edits pr track. Does that make any sense? I know chopped up files is heavy on the HD.

 

Yes, I also thought about a clock. I won't be syncing anything up to this system, I know that now. I won't be running MIDI tracks along with it, either. So, I do need a clock for two MOTU 1296 an a G4?

 

I plan to back to CDR, but I have a DLT as well (boxed, never used). Is that any good?

 

And my *only* choice is a G4/733? Pheww, damn expensive! Anyway, the finances for the whole lot is comming from an Otari MX-80, 2" 24tr. I'm going to get a nice sum of money for that one, hopefully more than enough to pay for the whole lot.

 

Thanx for your help!

 

Scott, I've read all the stuff about Macs, DP and computers in general here on this BBS. I also read what goes on at DUC, but you know, I can get/find really clear answers. And I don't have enough computer knowledge to figure out if I need a dual 533, or a single 733. So, that's why I'm asking.

 

I'd rather blow a little too much money and be on the safe side, than having a system running close to the max.

 

aj, I know you didn't hear any benefits running at 96k, but I do. And yes, I think it's probably more a filter question, than extended freqency response. I'm not gonna bust my brains to find out, though. It really doesn't matter for me.

 

I just think 96k sounds better.

[Scott Fehl]

higara,

 

Nika raises a good point, and I was wondering that myself. If you are not doing DSP, will a dual be better than a faster single? I don't know the answer to that. I would check with MOTU on that and see what kind of testing they have done.

 

 

The bottom line is that until the application is recompiled for the Nitro chip (733) & the application supports OSX. The 733 is going to actually run like a 600 something MHz machine. With a dual G4, you have to also wait for the app to support MP g4's & OSX to get the full advantage.

 

Knowing that DP3.0 does support Multi processors and OSX (i think), it looks like that would be the way to go (especially if you run plug-ins). I have not heard MOTU say wehether or not it has been recompiled to for NItro chips. Also, I have read rumblings that the current G4e chip may be short lived, thus reducing the chance that software companies will recompile for a chip that will only be around 1 year.

 

At NAB I took the oppertunity to ask the guy at Apple who does the benchmark testing what is the most relevent test that is commonly published (ie photoshop filters, ect) is most analogous to real time audio DSP computations. He said that he did not know, and to contact MOTU. He went on about the pipeline of the chip and how instructions were stacksed, all of which went over my head.

 

Bottom line, both the dual 533 and single 733 are not running at their full potential. I would wait for a dual 733 and get the best of both worlds. They should be announcing new machines next month. Someone else has hinted to me that that they are having a heat problem with dual 733 machines at the moment. That same person, wink wink, hinted that a Quad 1 gig is a total dream at the moment. I would guess that the most you could safely guess to have by the end of the year is a dual 800MHz.

 

On my test I did last night, my g4 was only at 20% with 24 track with the buffer at 1024 (which is a little sluggish, but not bad at all IMO). If Alphajerk is correct that it is not a matter of doubling the load, even if you tripple it on my machine you would still be a 60%. Even the single 533 is way faster then mine (133Mhz plus a faster system bus). I would guess that you would be fine with one of those, unless you are ever tempted to the dark side- (i.e. plug-ins) http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif

[Scott Fehl]

BTW: I think Roger got a 733. He was commenting that it was not running nearly as fast as he had hoped. Check with him and see what he has to say (although I doubt he runs native http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif his demo MOTU system is probably still sitting in his garage)

 

Also, there has been discussion on this on the Macworld BBS and http://www.barefeats.com/speedtests.html

 

This message has been edited by Scott Fehl on 05-16-2001 at 11:31 AM

[hiraga]

Thanx Scott... this shit is major headache.. and have shit to do with music, so I don't like it..

 

Urghh..

 

A dual 800MHz *just* to run 24tr at 24/96????.. whohaa..

 

Is there ANY system out there that can run 24tr at 24/96, be it DAW, or standalone? There's a RADAR that does 48tr at 44,1kHz, so it'll probably run 24tr at 96kHz as well. Dunno what it's gonna cost though, probably 20 grand.

 

I'd rather keep the Otari and buy some razorblades then..

 

Is there anyone here running multitrack setups at 96kHz? No?

 

I'd rather be crucified than being a digital test rat..

[Scott Fehl]

To clarify,

 

I think a single 533 will do what you want just fine. If you want the fastest thing out there, but are getting dizzy deciding between a dual 533 & single 733, then I would say wait a few months for a dual 733 and get the best of both worlds.

 

If you want to hold out as long as you can, I think the fastest thing you will see this year is a dual 800 (not a quad 1gig), but that is just my guess. I do not think that you need that much computer to do 24 track of 24/96 with no plug ins. Even my single G4 400 will probably just barely do that.

 

Ultimately I would check with MOTU to confirm all of this.

[hiraga]

Again, thanx..

 

I'll ask MOTU. I'll also ask, if I need DP3 to run 96k.

 

In the mean time, if anyone else can suggest a system that'll fullfill my needs, please lemme know..

 

Another thing, I'd like this system up and running, asap. I'm not sure I can wait for DP3...

[David R.]

Hiraga, why not look at a standalone, like the Mackie or Radar? Sounds like you are looking to get a computer that will emulate what these machines do.

 

-David R.

[alphajerk]

personally in your position, i would easily go with a RADAR48 running 24 tracks at 96khz. BUT a MAC G4733 @ $3500 + $3.5k for the two motu 1296's and another $500 for the software you are only looking at $7.5k [then another $500 for the ATTO SCSI card and $2k for the HD's, you are at a cool $10k]... i just dont know if it can pull off 24 tracks. and forget about CDR for backup, DVDr is the ONLY sane way to go... otherwise you would spend more time burning backups than recording.

[hiraga]

David, that's EXACTLY what I want...!

 

But they won't do 96k, and if they do, they're cut in half. From an ergonomic point of view, I don't want to be looking at two screens, which is what I'm gonna do, if I run two Mackies.

 

I do N*O*T like computers, most badly engineered piece o' shit, humans ever have invented, but I'm very keen on running 96k and I want some serious editing as well, so I guess there's no way around it?

 

I've emailed MOTU, 'bout this thing. Hopefully they'll return with a good answer..

 

If I can't get what I want, I'll freakin' emigrate to Nebraska with a four track cassette..

 

I mean, there's a "96k" sticker on everything from cables to DAWs so, there's gotta be at least ONE system that can do what I want, huh?

 

I'll probably end up with a 48k system.. and then in a year, when 96k is cheaper than dirt, I'll have to buy a new system. NO thanx! I wan't it and I wan't it NOW..

 

I'm planning on running this system for like 3-5 years. Yeah, that's right, that long.

[Emile]

OK you want it NOW and for it to last 3-5 years? That's paradoxal as you want super cutting edge technology with a semi-pro price before it's even settled and to top it off you want it to last 3-5 years.

 

I say good luck and post back on your findings we will all benefit from your trail blazing!

 

But for the computer thingy.

 

1) I'd go for the dual. That way you can upgrade the two CPU's eventually if more power is needed. You just won't be abble to upgrade a single 733 to a dual anything once it's available. So if you go my way you'll be able to stick in two 1 GHz when the time is right.

 

2) The DVD argument for back-up is a strong one. Believe me, CD-R for 24/96 is just too time consuming. Where I work we've recently done a whole album in PT. 32 tracks @ 48 KHz 24 bit. Once the useless takes have been wiped and every thing stripped down to the real tracks, it still takes up two CDs to backup each of the longer songs. Now imagine with 96KHz and 5 years of work. That's a lot of plastic.

 

I say have patience, in year such a scenario will be common knowledge. And I'm sure you'll still have a taker for your Otari.

 

My two cents

 

Emile

[alphajerk]

Originally posted by Emile:

OK you want it NOW and for it to last 3-5 years? That's paradoxal as you want super cutting edge technology with a semi-pro price before it's even settled and to top it off you want it to last 3-5 years.

 

I say good luck and post back on your findings we will all benefit from your trail blazing!

 

But for the computer thingy.

 

1) I'd go for the dual. That way you can upgrade the two CPU's eventually if more power is needed. You just won't be abble to upgrade a single 733 to a dual anything once it's available. So if you go my way you'll be able to stick in two 1 GHz when the time is right.

 

2) The DVD argument for back-up is a strong one. Believe me, CD-R for 24/96 is just too time consuming. Where I work we've recently done a whole album in PT. 32 tracks @ 48 KHz 24 bit. Once the useless takes have been wiped and every thing stripped down to the real tracks, it still takes up two CDs to backup each of the longer songs. Now imagine with 96KHz and 5 years of work. That's a lot of plastic.

 

I say have patience, in year such a scenario will be common knowledge. And I'm sure you'll still have a taker for your Otari.

 

My two cents

 

Emile

 

 

i agree about the price/performance and it will NEVER last 3-5 years. 96khz is just too new to get what you want at the price you want. i think there is still too much residual X floating in yer brain.

 

you also will NOT be able to upgrade the dual, at least not in a fashion that is progressive in performance. the 733 is the only one with the faster bus speed, the current duals dont have it and as far as i know, no Macs are upgradable [even though there are upgrade cards out there, its not the same thing AT ALL]

 

 

i would WAIT. or get the RADAR48, one machine 24 tracks @ 96khz. and im sure it will last 5 years or more. not to mention people RAVE about the convertors which really is what defines the sound of the unit, people say its the closest thing they have heard to analog.