Wonder why radio and major label releases suck?

[Lee Flier]

Read this and weep.

 

http://www.salon.com/ent/feature/2001/03/14/payola/index.html

 

--Lee

[Hippie]

Lee,

I always suspected there was something like that going on. I bet these "Indies" gained ground around 1982, that seems to be when radio started going down the toilet.

 

-Hippie

[ricknbokker]

It's a big *ucking mudball....

 

I couldn't have said it any better. Actually, yes, I could have.

 

It IS payola. Dress it up however you like and take it to the dance, but it is payola nonetheless. Except, instead of "play this record or I'll kick your ass", it's "play this record and I'll hit you over the head w/a wad of cash.

 

I haven't listened to commercial radio in years. And I don't see myself starting anytime soon.

I listen to member supported, public radio. Or I listen to my own collection of music. I refuse to be taken in.

 

Let's put it this way. When someone asks me if I've heard a particular song or band, I immediately run the other way. Is this cold? Absolutely!! But what usually happens is this 'Hot New Band" I've heard about ends up being derided in the critical press, and looked at as 'yesterdays news' by the popular press the second the novelty wears off. Or, the next flavor of the week comes along.

 

It's all a big suckfest perpetrated by the only people in the world (it seems) that realize that parents are raising their children as illiterate, mindless fools. (in general)

 

Flame me if you want. I don't care. I won't waste my time going into parental blame thing, but it always seems to come to that.

 

Everything I learned that is important I learned from my parents.

 

It is both a blessing and a curse...but I know the difference.

 

Going on w/my bad self... I remain,

Steve

[sysexguy]

only since 1982? As the article mentions, get a copy of "The Hit Men".

 

Andy

[spookmuzik]

Zoiks! That is foul. I am a part time editor at a radio station. There was just a "black thursday" where people at stations owned by the company were all laid off on the same day. I survived because I am cheap I suspect. Point is - there are now only 4 DJs total for this station. The playlist is library only - no new music. On the weekends the place is empty (except for me http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/frown.gif )because the computer is playing the music. Its basically on-air muzak at this point. The DJs are even told what to say in between songs & commercials, and how to say it.

 

Thank god for college radio! I guess there is some payola stuff there too, but private funding leaves room for some creative programming and DJs with personality. But then again here in seattle the university radio station just got sold to Paul Allen and changed its letters to K-EXP....(like the experience music project). It still seems the same, but I wonder for how long?

 

Julian M

[Lee Flier]

Originally posted by Hippie:

Lee,

I always suspected there was something like that going on. I bet these "Indies" gained ground around 1982, that seems to be when radio started going down the toilet.

 

That's just because that's when the dreaded gated reverb snare sound was introduced. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

 

Seriously, the article says it really got out of hand starting in the early 90's, when there was a big push for deregulation of radio stations. That seems about right to me. The last 5 years have been the worst, IMO. Never have I seen so much great new music that never makes it on the air vs. such schlock that does.

 

--Lee

[ricknbokker]

Gated snare sound??!!! That's friggin hilarious, Lee. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gifhttp://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gifhttp://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

 

Yo Spook... RUN AWAY!!! RUN FASTER!!!! RUN FOR YOUR LIFE!!!

 

(Or kick yourself in the head many time over, 10 years from now!)

 

Steve

[alphajerk]

i thought the majors were found out to be monopolistic anyways. i didnt even think they had to pay the radio stations becuase their parent company OWNED the radio stations.

 

THIS is why they are so against napster, NOT for the reasons they lead the public and even worse, the stupid fucking artists who go along with their bullshit not really knowing why. that is why i laugh at these "artists" who claim napster "hurts them".

[Anderton]

I'm truly surprised that anyone didn't know this was going on, it has been a given since the 50s...just in different guises.

 

The only real exception was FM radio in the 60s. FM used to be a vast wasteland, and AM was king. FM had nothing to lose by starting something free form, and it prospered for a bit.

[spookmuzik]

Originally posted by ricknbokker:

Gated snare sound??!!! That's friggin hilarious, Lee. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gifhttp://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gifhttp://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

 

Yo Spook... RUN AWAY!!! RUN FASTER!!!! RUN FOR YOUR LIFE!!!

 

(Or kick yourself in the head many time over, 10 years from now!)

 

Steve

 

LOL! Yeah http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/redface.gifhttp://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/eek.gif ... Just part time, for a little cash to support my 2" tape habit.

 

Julian M

[Bobro]

Old-school payola doesn't bother me. Because if it's a matter of drugs, whores, and violence, an ambitious person can smuggle, sell their ass and learn kung-fu, all on a shoestring budget. That's just rock and roll, fine by me. But this shit with invoices-it's embarrasing.

 

Corruption's one thing, but being square...well that does explain the overwhelming "conform and consume" message.

 

-CB

[Alndln]

They have this thing called the "Internet",were supposed to be using it to get around this shit and put it in the past where it belongs,but the problem here is most people are lazy and still dream of making it big and keep the controlling machinery alive and well.I used to think Payola was one of the worst practices until I learned about "Rackjobing".

 

 

This message has been edited by Alndln@hotmail.com on 05-13-2001 at 01:47 AM

[alphajerk]

there are a LOT of business practices that wouldnt fly in ANY OTHER INDUSTRY, i cant believe it still does in this one.

[Chip McDonald]

This is a surprise?

 

It's why it's impossible to get a local band on the radio, even though they might be big locally. It's a joke....

 

The thing that sucks is that even if this was widespread public knowledge, these days people wouldn't care. The masses are Total Sheep.

 

Another thing - our so morally vaunted government looks the other way, as it does in many businesses, because IT'S COMPLETELY SOLD OUT. They're going after Gates because he has enough money that he doesn't need to line anyone's pockets to get by, unlike many other businesses (like the record industry, tobacco industry, etc...)

 

Our Presidential Election is just a big fluffball thrown at the populace to encourage the illusion the Sheep have some power over things. It's a big joke. The only way it can be fought is to consistently deride these things whenever one has a chance (like I'm doing now). The Sheep don't know, and it's aggravating living in a world of Blind Consumers.

[John Worthington]

This goes one everywhere. It's one of the sad facts of life. Radio stations get paid to play music. Record stores get paid to carry it (co-op ads).

 

It also happens in the software business. You pay for shelf space at the local Fry's or CompUSA. You also pay to get featured in catalogs.

 

It sucks, it's unfair, and it helps keep the little guys out of the game.

 

Here's something even scarier to think about. Clear Channel, which owns a huge number of radio stations also owns SFX, one of the leading concert promotion companies. Ever wonder why you see and hear that same groups over and over?

 

jw

[Tedster]

Just to let you all know, I've written this, but I've been debating whether to post it or not. When you read it you'll know why.

 

Yup. It sucks. But either we can cry about it, or do something about it...WAIT...bear with me a second.

 

The first step is to disregard that article...in other words...why should we care at all whether all radio stations play the shit they play, or even go to a solid "ALL LAWRENCE WELK ALL THE TIME" format? To care makes it possible for them to work their evil on those who oughta be above it.

 

That said...

 

This may sound stupid at first, maybe even in the long run...because it would be a David and Goliath thing...but, what can be done at the grassroots level to fight it? Now, I don't mean that a handful of broke musicians should try to take on the evil corporate empire...at least not in direct conflict. But, if we don't care...fighting it should be easy. Let 'em have their empire. Now, we need to create ours. It won't be as big, or as glossy, but it'll possibly be far more interesting.

 

How, on a local level, can one take attention away from not the "BIG NATIONAL CORPORATION"...but rather your local HOT HIT station? Bear with me a second...NOT in going nose to nose with them, and NOT vying for the teenybop or "masses are asses" market...but those who could be swayed. Creating an underground subculture of local or regional artists. Bringing true meaning to the term "ALTERNATIVE"... Something like that would require extensive cooperation between local bands. Tools beyond money. Making the local and regional acts seem important to the point where it takes some credibility away from (some, but not all) "cookie cutter national acts". Cut into the big boys market share a little bit. Chances are they wouldn't notice, nor even care.

 

These things already exist on most local levels! The trick is to promote it so it seems like the thing to do (and "promotion" shouldn't always have to be a dirty word). Most larger areas have magazines that deal with a city's music scene...like the "Pitch" here in Kansas City...the "Florida Flambeau" in Tallahassee, etc...there's the starting point. Now, how to take it to the next level??? THAT'S what we should be discussing here, not the fact that radio sucks because megabuck congolomerates have it and record labels by their collective scrotums! We've known or at least suspected that for years.

 

I say...it's YOUR local culture. Get behind it. Urge everyone in your area to get behind it and stop worrying about what big brother does.

 

Sorry for the rambling nature of this post.

[Duhduh]

"Rackjobing" ??

[Tedster]

One of the things that immediately comes to mind...is use their (evil empire) tools to fight themselves. How? Advertising!

 

Say five of the top local acts have CDs out. Have 'em all go in on a radio campaign to sell their CDs! Yep, radio time is expensive, but so is studio time, and they've all managed to swing that. Stock the CDs at a local record store that caters to more eclectic tastes. Then chip in and buy some spots on the local station! The spots feature short clips of the bands' tunes, just like the concert ads you hear. Bands are a business. Businesses advertise. So advertise.

[spookmuzik]

!WARNING! Anti-corporate blather to follow.

 

I'm with you Tedster! I think most local scenes benefit from some shameless promotion, and also from turning their backs on corporate radio. Live music is probably the great hope for the entire industry. For the band its a chance to get paid (!), even a little, for entertaining, and a chance to capture an audience. Nothing works better on me than a great live performance. Word of mouth, street campaigns etc are still effective locally. Everyone at the show is not listening to the radio, or watching TV. Everyone at the show is not downloading your song for free against your will. Everyone at the show can be convinced to go out to see other shows, as long as this one is fun.

 

If you like to think guerilla radical, you could consider every moment of attention paid to you by the consuming masses, a theft from the big money advertisers! They lost money on everyone that didn't see their ad because they were out watching you.

 

Hell yeah man! Steal the peoples attention, make better music, give the people an education, and promote other indie bands. A healthy local scene helps you anyway. Go to the clubs. Limit your TV watching - NO AIMLESS FLIPPING! That would be making all that advertising work. Listen only to college radio. Buy CDs from the bands themselves. Trade CDs with other bands.

 

As for big media - YOU KNOW WHEN THEY ARE TRYING TO SELL YOU SOMETHING. THAT IS WHEN YOU SHOULD PAY THE LEAST ATTENTION.

 

Besides its just more satisfying of a life.

Julian M

[Alndln]

Originally posted by Duhduh:

"Rackjobing" ??

Payola to ensure shelf space at your local record outlet,you have to pay for that too,but usually thats all sewed up.In other words you just can't approach a retail outlet(Tower?)and expect to get shelf space there.

[Chip McDonald]

Originally posted by Tedster:

These things already exist on most local levels! The trick is to promote .

 

 

Like my position on Napster and MP3's, I don't think such a thing can be countered head on through anything short of a change in social thinking.

 

How you fight this is to be totally consistent whenever possible to deride The Powers That Be. Choose the independent alternative when possible.

 

I did my part to help the local independent scene by lending a hand in the know-how department since initially it was a bit... primitive. It's pretty much self-sustaining now finally, although it's still in it's nascent stage.

 

Part of this revolves around the revitalization of Augusta Georgia's downtown district, which was wiped out in the early 80's by the arrival of two huge malls....

 

... one of which is now defunct.

 

Real estate downtown is now on the rise, *totally*, 100% due to the underground scene that started with the music counter-culture. There is now a whole guard of people who are pretty loyal to downtown Augusta businesses; even some of the older people who find it hard to believe it's happening now see the value in supporting it.

 

BECAUSE

 

It's NOT a corporate haven.

 

Once a week I eat at a friend's tex-mex place downtown. It's the only thing that's approaching regular in my schedule. It's very satisfying. Not just because the food is good, but because -

 

*my money is going to a *friend*, NOT a corporate non-entity*. I have friends that work there, and because of my money they've been able to open another resturant down town.

 

Because of my patronage I've helped the area appear to be more stable, which encourages other people to venture to a previously forsaken area. Because of that other businesses have opened there; it's now a bustling place, with essentially NO corporate presence whatsoever.

 

This has occured due to a change in social thinking about the area. Additionally, *because* these are locally owned businesses, they each display a unique character and have a quirkiness to them that is not just quaint but *marketable*. Marketable for their uniqueness in a manner that can't be manufactured. It just "happened". That's the triumph of individuallity.

 

I've encounted some old-money type people who have changed their entire perspective on business seeing this happen. They wrote the area off because McDonald's didn't want to go there, or some other corporate entity.

Now, they're struggling to figure out how to regain control of it, which is very amusing; politics in this town are very, very "interesting".

 

 

The point to the diatribe being that is was a change in social perspective that allowed the independent businesses in this downtown area to succeed. The same can happen in radio and music in general, provided people stay consistent with their views to the point it reaches a saturation point an Average Joe starts thinking "maybe I *don't* like what I'm told I like on the radio.. maybe I should try to see what I *really* like....".

 

Because right now there's no point, everyone behaves like obedient sheep.

 

 

 

------------------

New and Improved Music Soon: ]www.mp3.com/chipmcdonald

[Nawor]

About 15 years ago I attended a music business management course. It ran about four hours a week for about eight weeks. Most of those in the course were already working with one or more bands either in defacto management type roles or as a mixer/publicist/roadie/recording etc. At the end of the first day the lecturer asked us...

 

"How do record companies get their albums airplay on mainstream commercial radio?"

 

He told us to go away and think about our answer until next week. The following week he took a poll as to what we believed to be the procedure. Out of about 20 in the class, approximately half thought the songs were chosen by the presenters themselves and the remainder thought the program director/station manager made the decisions based on a weekly selections of new albums provided to the station by various record company representatives.

 

After taking the poll he walked around the room handing out Xeroxed copies of excerpts from Danners 'The Hitmen'. The following week the class had shrunk to about half its original size. One student demanded a refund on the basis if the industry was that corrupt then he didn't want to be a part of it and would rather go and sell used cars. Many of us were still convinced that if something was truly good enough that it would somehow rise above all this corruption and manipulation and still get airplay on the basis that it 'deserved' to.... how naive we all were!!

 

P.S. 'The Hitmen' was reprinted in 1991 but has has been around since the early/mid eighties.

[Guest]

Originally posted by Alndln@hotmail.com:

Originally posted by Duhduh:

"Rackjobing" ??

Payola to ensure shelf space at your local record outlet,you have to pay for that too,but usually thats all sewed up.In other words you just can't approach a retail outlet(Tower?)and expect to get shelf space there.

 

 

to be clear, that's not what rackjobbing is.

Rackjobbing is a somewhat antiquated distribution scheme that has retailers contracting with "rackjobbers" - who merchandise and maintain an assortment of music and entertainment product in a sort of leased department. They carry a subset - frequently, though not necessarily, bland - of product in stores that are too disinterested or lame to manage or staff their own department. There used to be a number of these companies. Now there are a handful. Slotting fees, and display allowances are something else, not rackjobbing.

 

I'm not saying that this will get your record into Tower. The first question that you have to answer is who takes the return on what doesn't sell. This is an advantage that the majors have that you don't. (and incidentally this is probably the same fundamental problem that "rackjobbing" originally solved.)

 

 

 

 

This message has been edited by spokenWard@netscape.net on 05-13-2001 at 09:20 PM

[John Worthington]

And to be clear, the bigger chains, Tower and Musicland (which includes Sam Goody and a lot more) all deal direct with the large distributors as do places like Walmart from what I understand. Smaller independent stores tend to use jobbers more as they don't have a lot of leverage and don't buy in large quantities.

 

jw

[cerebralborealis]

Paying for shelf space works the same in supermarkets as it does in record stores. Notice the abundance of space dedicated to coca-cola or frito-lay brand products vs. little or no space for better tasting, locally produced stuff. Its the same thing, mass marketing in the USA. Nothing new about it. Don't like it? Then seek out, demand, support, and take great pride in your favorite locally produced music, food, art, etc. and convince all your friends to do the same. Otherwise, stop whining about it.

[Curve Dominant]

Lee,

 

Great link. Thanks. But please excuse me if I didn't bother to weep.

 

Excellent article. I have to concur with Craig, though. It seems that many of us have a mind-set left over from early-FM, when it seemed like you could jam away and become a rich rock star. It's like primetime television these days. Endless shlock as filler for advertising. That's the important angle that was never touched on in that otherwise well-researched article. Commercial radio programming is a slave to its advertisement sponsors. That's why programming is so fragmented into tight little genres: advertisers like that, because it helps them to accurately target audiences. You won't hear a hip hop tune on a station that is sponsored by advertisers who are selling Saabs, anymore than you will hear a Britney Spears tune on a station that is sponsored by advertisers who are selling malt liquor, or a Miles Davis tune on a station that is laced with Sprite commercials. Advertisers and programming directors rely on independent promoters for more than just "Play this..." Those decisions are made by market research firms.

[Philip OKeefe]

I have to agree with Craig, Chip et al.... I'm surprised at how many of you are shocked by this "big revelation" - this is old OLD news.... disturbing, but old....

 

 

Phil O'Keefe

Sound Sanctuary Recording

Riverside CA

http://members.aol.com/ssanctuary/index.html

pokeefe777@msn.com

[Bobro]

Originally posted by pokeefe777@msn.com:

I have to agree with Craig, Chip et al.... I'm surprised at how many of you are shocked by this "big revelation" - this is old OLD news.... disturbing, but old....

 

I thought Lee's post was more rhetorical, and that people were expressing disgust, not surprise. Having seen this stuff first-hand, I can't be surprised.

 

My point was that the real problem is not in corruption itself- that's REALLY old news and honestly doesn't bother me at all. The bad news is that, as Curve said, radio music is "Endless shlock as filler for advertising." That's indicative of a state of the soul in which millions of people accept music as a cheap commodity, and also implies the exclusion of any music that doesn't fit into the "conform and consume" mentality essential to successful mass advertising. I agree with Chip, who has said (paraphrasing, correct me if I'm wrong Chip) many times on this forum that changes in the music industry are going to have to happen on a deep level.

 

This is all old news, too, but that doesn't make it any less important.

 

IMO the inevitable evolution of "conform and consume" is genocide. The arts are always the first indicator of the future. Intolerance of the "different", relentless homogeneity, ostracism of "wierd people" or anyone who can't be immediately classifed, the celebration of mediocrity and the valuing of profit over soul, what kind of mentality does that indicate and nurture? Death on a mass scale, coming your way.

 

Well, it's time to stop conforming to this chair, consume some fruits of the Earth, slide into some tight leather and go for a long walk. Exercise and erotic chafing in one, an economical solution, but is it marketable?

 

-CB

 

 

 

------------------

Kosmolith

[strat0124]

Yeah, I got a kick out of "the gated snare sound" as well. Always thought it sounded fake. Among others that are way overused is verb. There are some folks who think reverb is a necessity on EVERYTHING.....I don't follow that mindset. In fact I never use it on my guitars live. Hey I put the PA to work.

As far as radio is concerned, they are held fast by corporate America, and the playlists don't vary from station to station. Even the weekend DJ's are becoming a thing of the past, with all the stuff coming off a hard-drive. The only place you'll find a sliver of objectivity and artistic chance is college radio and public radio. I even considered buying the equipment and going pirate, but didn't want any hassles.

Rock radio is bad, but not as bad as country radio....it's so mindless and the same drone of sappy "positive country". It seems like all the session men worked on the same songs currently on the radio. Rock stuff is going all power grind and semi-rap. And another mis-used term "Alternative" is anything but. I remember when REM was considered Alternative. Alt-Country is really the only alternative thing out there, that I see. It covers alot of ground as well.

A cool new music video station came on a while back that featured unsigned bands, and it is way more interesting than anything on MTV, VH1, CMT, TNN, etc has to offer. I still love Austin City Limits, but that's only on Saturday nights (usually playing somewhere).

[Guest]

Payola certainly has existed forever. However, the situation was way different prior to the 1970s because there were LOTS of record labels seriously competing for the pop market. The net result was that these labels were constantly searching out "the next big thing," rather than finding a formula that works and beating it into the ground. This is what happens when you have a few majors that dominate overwhelmingly: LCD music. Don't rock the boat!

 

In addition, radio stations were not generally owned, or at least, managed, by giant national conglomerates. Local radio was REALLY local. In the Northeast, you would hear different songs from town to town. True, the major national hits were played, but aside from that there were major differences in programming, and localized hits. Today, pop radio sounds the same in NYC as it does in rural Montana!