Boy Bands: Okay, Now I Understand the Rancor...

[alphajerk]

id rather eat maggot brains than listen to any of the pop shit out yesterday, today, or tomorrow.

[dansouth]

Originally posted by GusTraX:

I'm an electronic-based musician and I do make use of what's available to make better things. AutoTune It is a valid tool just like a spell checker for a writer and a quantize feature in a sequencer. I do use it and many other programs in my productions or for third party projects.

 

I know the fine musicians which work in those productions also do make use of those products too which is great: If the plastic artists have no talent, at least we won't suffer ear traumma by listening their out-of-tune screams.

 

Too bad it seems I was born to make Rowan's life harder...

Wasn't this an Open Forum?

 

Sorry Craig... and Sorry, Rowan.

 

No need to apologize. To paraphrase Curve Dominant - who I'm glad to see has recently resurfaced - this is an audio forum. We discuss audio technology here. Someone may not like AutoTune or MIDI or electric guitars or compression or normalization or reverb or boards with total recall or what have you. That doesn't mean we can't discuss these topics.

 

AutoTune is everybody's favorite whipping boy, and it's a stupid attitude, because the program gets blamed for lots of stuff it doesn't even do. That honking vocal on Cher's song - and all of the miserable copies I hear on the radio these days. I can almost hear the angry mob forming, torches in hand. AUTOTUNE! AUTOTUNE! AUTOTUNE! But AutoTune wasn't even used on the song. A hardware vocoder from Digitech made the gastly sound that everyone HAS to have on their pathetic records.

 

Walk down the street and pick ten people at random, and I'll show you nine people whose voices can't be salvaged by even the most extreme application of AutoTune.

 

Ever heard of the Eventide Harmonizer? Ever see one in a studio or a live sound rack? Know what they use it for nine times out of ten? Okay. If you're gonna bash AutoTune, at least be consistent and bash Harmonizers, too.

 

I've got an idea. Let's pull the frets out of all of our guitars! After all, if we were REAL musicians, we wouldn't need a crutch like FRETS to help us play in tune.

 

Gus, keep the faith. There's a storm of negativity on this board this week, but it should blow over soon.

[Alndln]

As soon as we can find that "off" button ,we'll promise to be nice.

[Chip McDonald]

That would be, at least in part, because people have this weird notion that the writer and performer should always be the same person.

 

Not at all. I thought of them beause Sting has done a wonderful cover of Hendrix's "Little Wing", and Bono has done things for Clannad that are great.

 

I think a lot of bands would be better off hiring a songwriter.

Like U2, the Chili Peppers, Dave Mattews Band? Led Zeppelin? What bands?

 

As it happens, you picked four bands that I think have lousy songwriting, so yeah, them.

 

Yeah, they're nobody. I guess if you say they have lousy writing I'll have to believe you...

 

Making an entire song around a sound effect, or one line.

 

The history of rock and roll in a nutshell.

 

That's why I can play Stairway on guitar by myself and most of the population will recogize it? Oh I forgot, that was written lousy.

 

When you expect someone who's a good singer to also be a good songwriter--despite the fact that those two abilities have little to do with each other--that's exactly the sort of thing you get.

 

Who is talking about good singers? Britney????

 

I'm sure you always listen to the original Cole Porter recordings rather than those lousy Ella Fitzgerald cover versions.

 

Oh yeah, that's a really good comparison to modern pop music......

 

 

http://www.mp3.com/chipmcdonald

[Chip McDonald]

Originally posted by fet:

Chip: Which Monkees tune or tunes did Frank Zappa write!?

 

I'm not sure, it's one of those "blurred by the 60's" tales I think... Like Jack Nicholson wrote the screenplay to one of their movies; probably things people were involved with they'd rather forget, although Zappa was fairly high profile on the show itself....

 

http://www.mp3.com/chipmcdonald

[Duhduh]

I know this is a little belated, but I never put the 2 and 2 together that Pink Floyd's "Money" was in 7/4 AND a Top 40 hit.

 

Wow.

 

I dont think that would happen today. I dont think 90% of todays bands even know what 7/4 is let alone be able to play or write in that time signature!

 

This message has been edited by Duhduh on 05-11-2001 at 04:40 AM

[alphajerk]

my old band did a song in 5/4

[Bobro]

Originally posted by alphajerk:

my old band did a song in 5/4

 

That's a good thing- a natural thing, too. I believe that "the people" are a far sight more musical and naturally musical intelligent than "the industry" gives them credit for. Well, I hope so- 5 of the tunes on our site are in 5/4, and most of what I write is in that time, it just feels the most natural to me. Then again, I usually write on long walks and I walk with a slight limp.

 

Shit, a waltz isn't rocket science, nor is 6/8- those are simple popular rhythms, why isn't there more of that? T&A looks just as good or better moving in a round rhythm as a square one. I love a good fatback beat, and even the polka of the new millenium, the thud-chizzz 2 of today's dance music, is alright, but what's with the relentless homogeneity?

 

Popular music is an indicator of the condition of society- nothing against the boys in the boy bands themselves, they're just doing their jobs, it's the whole climate that makes me wonder.

 

Well back to work. Regardless of the popular climate, when you must do something, you must do it and that's that.

 

-CB

[Tim Walters]

Originally posted by Chip McDonald:

Not at all. I thought of them beause Sting has done a wonderful cover of Hendrix's "Little Wing", and Bono has done things for Clannad that are great.

 

Surely you realize that I was talking about the difficulty you expressed in finding a modern equivalent to the song interpreters of yesteryear, not about Sting or Bono.

 

That's why I can play Stairway on guitar by myself and most of the population will recogize it? Oh I forgot, that was written lousy.

 

Music 10, lyrics 3. Just my opinion.

 

I'm sure you always listen to the original Cole Porter recordings rather than those lousy Ella Fitzgerald cover versions.

 

Oh yeah, that's a really good comparison to modern pop music......

 

I'm not sure why I'm having so much difficulty in getting my point across. Several decades ago, the roles of songwriter and performer were quite distinct. Today, the expectation is that the same person is expected to play both roles. This started as a welcome relaxation of the restrictive rules for "professionalism"--welcome because it allowed unconventional but brilliant talents such as Dylan to be heard as performers as well as songwriters. Unfortunately, in some people's minds, this calcified into the idea that a musician who is only good at one of the two roles is somehow deficient, and that there's something phony about the traditional songwriter/performer relationship. It's that attitude (and any other dogma about how music should be made) that I don't care for.

 

I'm not saying Britney is good, just that "she doesn't even write her own songs" is not a valid criticism. One June Tabor is worth 20,000 Jewels.

[Tim Walters]

There's a whole genre of odd-time music these days--check out Don Caballero, Godspeed You Black Emperor!, or virtually any band on the Cuneiform label. Nothing denting the charts yet, but popular on my local college radio station.

[spookmuzik]

Don Caballoro rocks. Its definately a mathematical thing with them though. I saw them with a band called Shiny Beast opening - the Beast blew them off the stage beacause all the odd time stuff they did was natural to the songs. Either way, most refreshing to hear, and fun as hell to try and dance to http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif

 

Julian M

 

(now I remember how my back got like this! chiro, I need immediate chiro over here.)

[alphajerk]

craig, i have a hard time believing you have never seen the whole "package" from these crappy fabricated bands. i mean its on TV 24/7, in commercials, on award shows, EVERYWHERE! if i have to see that shitty pepsi commercial one more time http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/mad.gif

 

and not writing your own songs IS a legitimate complaint. i WONT work with people who dont and i WONT listen to people who do.

[-]

This just in... Apparently, the Backstreet Boys are breaking up!

 

http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gifhttp://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gifhttp://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

 

Of course, we'll probably have to suffer through their solo albums http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/eek.gif

[Chip McDonald]

Originally posted by geoffk:

grunge a breath of fresh air? please???!!! a bunch of long haired white doods playing guitars. that's pretty new all right. i'd rather hear n'sync or whoever than soundgarden playing led zeppelin riffs.

 

 

Nothing is technically new musically.

 

However, I much prefer Soundgarden being Zeppellin influenced over a freaking rehash of Menudo.

 

 

 

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New and Improved Music Soon: ]www.mp3.com/chipmcdonald

[Master Zap]

Speaking of NON-plastic videos... check the indie-thing I did w. my wife... I shot it, I edited it, I produced the music... wife sang, wife jumped around, wife flew in the airplane... and DAMN I'm thankful to the local airclub they lent us a one-of-a-kind vintade 1930's BIPLANE for the video!!

 

Check it out at www.NinaGoddess.com/video - COMMENTS APPRECIATED! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

 

/Z

[Chip McDonald]

Originally posted by Tim Walters:

Today, the expectation is that the same person is expected to play both roles.

 

You're looking at it inside-out. The point isn't that Britny didn't write her music, but that she for the most part only barely qualifies as a "singer". That's why a Cole Porter/Ella comparison is invalid.

 

for "professionalism"--welcome because it allowed unconventional but brilliant talents such as Dylan to be heard as performers as well as

 

Dylan, primitive technique wise as he is, still has a unique voice. It's also uniquely tied to his style of writing.

 

Again, I don't see how artistically Britny Spears, N'Sync or whoever similar relates.

 

the idea that a musician who is only good at one of the two roles is

 

Brit isn't a good singer OR songwriter, and I doubt she would call herself a "musician".

 

I'm not saying Britney is good, just that "she doesn't even write her own songs" is not a valid criticism. One June Tabor is worth 20,000 Jewels.

 

I never criticized her for not writing her own songs. I am critical of the gestalt of her manufactured image.

 

Has anyone here seen Ray Kurzweil's demo of his real-time avatar system? That's the future; William Gibson is becoming more prophetic every day...

[Tim Walters]

Chip,

 

I'm not sure where this conversation got off the rails, but let me try to put it back on (if only so we can apply the brakes).

 

Lee, Alpha and you have expressed, with varying degrees of strength and directness, the idea that a recording artist that doesn't write his, her or their own songs is unworthy of respect. It's that idea I'm disagreeing with. It has nothing to do with Britney Spears. I could give a shit about Britney Spears. I've barely even heard Britney Spears, and the point I was trying to make is not dependent in any way upon the quality of Britney Spears' music.

 

So please don't ask me any more what this has to do with Britney Spears, OK?

 

Looking back at my message, I can see that I should have made it clearer that I was responding to Lee's passing remark ("geez, they WROTE the songs") when I brought up this subject, rather than to your post or to the nominal subject of the thread. Sorry about that. I doubt that Lee meant it as a sweeping criticism, but I've heard it that way enough times that it set me off. Then you and Alpha took up the cause, and, well, here we are.

 

I'm happy to agree to disagree, but I want it to be clear what the disagreement is.

[Bobro]

Originally posted by Chip McDonald:

However, I much prefer Soundgarden being Zeppellin influenced over a freaking rehash of Menudo.

 

Took me a second on the "freaking rehash of Menudo"- at first I thought you were referring to some kind of dish, like cornbeef, potatoes, menudo and habanero peppers.

 

"I'll take the Freaking Rehash of Menudo, and my lovely date will have the Soundgarden Salad, easy on the Zeppellin Pepper...."

 

-CB

 

 

 

 

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Kosmolith

[Lee Flier]

Originally posted by Tim Walters:

Lee, Alpha and you have expressed, with varying degrees of strength and directness, the idea that a recording artist that doesn't write his, her or their own songs is unworthy of respect. ...Looking back at my message, I can see that I should have made it clearer that I was responding to Lee's passing remark ("geez, they WROTE the songs") when I brought up this subject, rather than to your post or to the nominal subject of the thread.

 

Actually Tim, I DON'T believe at all that artists should all write their own material. In fact Alpha and I had a pretty heated disagreement about that once. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif Ever since the Beatles artists are pretty much expected to write their own stuff, and I don't think they necessarily HAVE to.

 

If you read the context of my remark I also mentioned that those other pop stars played instruments and sang well. My main point was that a performer had better bring SOMETHING to the table - something besides big boobs or a nice hairdo and some cheesy dance moves, that is. It bothers me not at all if someone performs another person's song if the performer is a GREAT singer, or a GREAT instrumentalist, has something unique to contribute. There are a lot of great performers who don't write that well and a lot of great songwriters who don't sing well or don't have the "image" to get their songs out there and heard by lots of people. Might as well match 'em up. It's better than hearing great musicians get stuck playing shitty songs which happens a lot, OR talented songwriters whose stuff never gets heard, which probably happens a lot too.

 

In fact one of my favorite bands in town does 80% covers but they consistently do them better than the original recorded versions. They're obviously crazy about the music they play and are fantastic musicians, so they get to play the "hip" intown clubs normally reserved for all-original bands. I think "fantastic musicians" is the operative word there. If you're not a fantastic musician OR songwriter OR singer, I don't wanna hear your sorry ass on the radio. At least do one of 'em great! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif

 

--Lee

 

 

 

This message has been edited by Lee Flier on 05-14-2001 at 12:29 PM

[Tim Walters]

Lee, you expressed my opinion better than I could (or did). Thank you.

[rumpelstiltskin.]

part of an explanation for why artists are expected to write their own music is because of the raising bar in terms of public/industry expectation for music. that's why rock fans rail against pop singers who don't write their own songs. there's a very strong expectation for guitar players to write their own music if they're not in pop or blues.

i never got into clapton, because i always heard him playing a blues standard. so he can wank. the music never expressed any emotions to me, so it never got anywhere inside of me.

personally, i think there are enough great instrumentalists who are phenomenal at writing music and words and putting together an entire artistic unit that is coherent across an album, including touring and webpage/promotions, that i really am less interested in those who can't perform at the same level.

but then, almost anyone can cover hendrix and make it sound good if they put some energy into it. some songs are just good no matter who performs it, and i'm certainly in tune to that, too.

[alphajerk]

actually the bands NOT doing their own songs is a conspiracy from the labels... of which i find a load of shit.

 

besides, i dont like songwriters who wont put themselves out there in front of the public and need some manufactured person doing it for them, as i dont like bands who play other peoples music [aside from 1-2 odd covers... but NEVER recorded, only live... maybe a live recording would be okay]

 

its just as lame as lame can get.

[Chip McDonald]

Originally posted by Tim Walters:

Lee, Alpha and you have expressed, with varying degrees of strength and directness, the idea that a recording artist that doesn't write his, her or their own songs is unworthy of respect.

 

If that is the case I have presented my position wrong.

 

There's two elements here. One is the case of Britney: she's not really a singer, not a writer - her two best attributes has nothing to do directly with music. The other element (which is what I think this thread started out on) is the notion that the boy band phenomenon is a manufactured illusion created not for the sake of music but the sake of product. The music is secondary. Again, this is not the same as the Cole Porter/Ella situation.

 

So please don't ask me any more what this has to do with Britney Spears, OK?

 

You brought her up....

 

Duran Duran was an actual band, BTW.

 

 

 

 

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New and Improved Music Soon: ]www.mp3.com/chipmcdonald

[Tim Walters]

>Duran Duran was an actual band, BTW.

 

I'll take your word for it. All I can really remember at this point is the sound of the singer smarming his way through "Rio" and "Hungry Like The Wolf".

[Anderton]

>>craig, i have a hard time believing you have never seen the whole "package" from these crappy fabricated bands. i mean its on TV 24/7, in commercials, on award shows, EVERYWHERE! if i have to see that shitty pepsi commercial one more time <<

 

Well, people always ask me "Where do you find the time to do all the things you do?" Not watching TV is a major help in that respect! I never saw Survivor, don't watch MTV (except when I'm in Europe), see one or two movies a year...you get the idea. I'm boring as hell in some ways . If I have any spare moments, I'd rather spend 'em with my family than on anything else.

[Anderton]

>>Unfortunately, in some people's minds, this calcified into the idea that a musician who is only good at one of the two roles is somehow deficient, and that there's something phony about the traditional songwriter/performer relationship.<<

 

I like to write my own material, but I also really dig doing covers if I think I can give it a real twist. I did a version of a Julian Cope song, and a weirdass reggae version of Dusty Springfield's "I Only Want to be with You." Perhaps my weirdest moment was doing a hyperspeed 4/4 version of "The Times They Are A-Changing" (which ended up coming out as "Times are Changing," and I cut out three verses). Also did a version of the Who's "Can't Explain" when playing live, and a pretty technofied version of the Animals' "We Gotta Get out of the Place" (think Pet Shop Boys meet Eric Burdon). It's a lot of fun, really. I don't feel it diminishes my musicianship one bit (or byte, for that matter).

[artnoiser]

Originally posted by Rowan:

I'm looking forward to the day again when some really average looking guy/girl sits down on a stool with just an acoustic guitar and plays a song live with just two mics. No effects/post production tricks

 

Kinda like Elliot Smith (not the prettiest face), although very beatleish. Which is not necessarily a rip-off. Artists like Bob Dylan would never make it in this age (and tons of others). Who knows if he would even succeed as a songwriter, it wouldn't be disposable enough for people (not meant in a way to judge whether disposable is good or bad).

 

Bjork, now there is a real artist. Weird, but real.

[artnoiser]

Originally posted by mixville@snet.net:

I don't quite understand why people have to act cool or macho by beating up on a lovey-dovey dinosaur that's made for 3 year olds.

 

True. But he's kind of idiotic, isn't he? I mean, it will draw the kid's attention, and the good thing about it is that it doesn't teach the kid about having to be cool or any of that other crap that kids start to deal with earlier and earlier in life. But it's not the most intelligent show on tv either (I don't know if there are smarter alternatives).

[artnoiser]

Originally posted by spookmuzik:

Don Caballoro rocks. Its definately a mathematical thing with them though.

 

I remember buying "What Burns Never Returns" after seeing them live. I was blown away at the concert, but then I got the cd, and it was a bit hard for me to get into it and to understand what is going on. For some reason, it made much more sense being played live...

 

I was getting disappointed because I thought I'd never really get the hang of the cd, but after repeated "forced listenings" that I made myself go through, all of the sudden, the diff. rhythmic patterns came together in my brain and voila, what a great record! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

 

art

[Guest]

The thing that bores me the most... The thing that I cannot stand... The thing that really, really, bugs me...

 

...are all these bands/ artists/ listeners with the mindset of:

 

A) Good is equal to sounding as poorly recorded as possible.

 

Corollary: The guitars must have no low end, and must be so scratchy and screechy that the listener's ear is fatigued after only a few seconds.

 

B) Heaven forbid that there should be any production whatsoever. That might have an element of grandness, or majesty, or simply be awe inspiring, and we can't have that.

 

Corollary: Reverb times longer than a few milliseconds are not allowed.

 

C) Heaven forbid that you make anything fun to listen to. If you don't have at least ten different chords in the first measure, each using the most dissonant intervals that you can find, then you are not a real musician, nor do you have any talent.

 

C.1) If you cannot, or will not write in the above style, then you must use as few chords as possible (preferably one). This will show off the "rawness" of the music, and make you "grounded."

 

D) "Feeling" is achieved by having as many mistakes present in a recording as possible. Anyone who can play precisely has no passion for what they do.

 

E) The crime of "looking good" shall be punishable by having all your musical credibility removed. Judging people by their looks is unfair and closed minded, so anyone who does not look like someone that we don't judge by their looks shall be judged to be devoid of any talent whatsoever.

 

Now, I will weigh in by saying that I like a range of music, from symphonic to *gasp* Britney. I do have a special place in my heart for all those awesome hair metal bands, like Motley Crüe, Poison, Warrant, Quiet Riot, The Scorpions, etc, etc, and you know what? Since grunge happened, I hadn't heard anything that rocked as hard until I heard Britney's "Stronger." (Other than when Def Leppard's "Euphoria" came out and got onto Top 40 radio. Whenever "Promises" was being played it felt like everything was right with the world again.)

 

One more thing. Obviously, the musical genres are different and the intentions of the writers might have been different, but for me the following analogy holds:

 

"Man, those people have no talent. They don't write a note of their own music. They play what they're told to play by their bosses, just taking orders."

 

"Yeah dude. Those symphony orchestras sure are horrible."

 

-Danny

 

 

 

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Of all the things that I have lost, I miss my mind the most.