Why are so many musicians computer programmers?

[Calfee Jones]

Stratman,

 

Despite what may have been said here, the best way for you to get started learning about programming may be to take a class. Not necessarily enrolling in college, but even a continuing education class. It's just that there is so much to learn if you don't know anything. Any experienced programmer makes so many assumptions based on things they have learned in the past, and when you are starting from scratch there is alot you don't know.

 

Even things as basic as what a record in a database is, what an if-then loop does, how a program makes decisions, precedence of operators, etc. These are all things you can learn on your own, but a class may help jump start you.

 

I have always found that the only way I really learn something is if I have a reson to learn it. So maybe a class, or a project you promise to someone else can be the motivation for you to get going.

[coyote]

In some cases, formal education does indeed wreak havoc on almost ALL students. Anyone out there remember the myths you were taught as 'facts'? Most college history teachers spend inordinate amounts of time undoing the 'education' we have received in elementary & high school. Those classes are nothing more than indoctrination - they do not teach people how to think. And that truly is damaging.

 

Originally posted by Lee Flier:

I'm only saying that parents shouldn't be afraid to give their kids options, and young adults shouldn't be afraid to give THEMSELVES options; also that some kids are very badly hurt by the educational system and could really blossom in a different environment. That's it.

[blackwon88]

Anserw to the original question it all started with learning how to play keys & bass, programing Moogs, Arps & then drum machines, Nukes in the military, more keyboards, then 386s, large format consoles, Flying Faders, Pentiums, Photoshop, then and still learning different software packages and code to get the job done and collecting money for an invoice.

 

The learning will never stop until I die or get Ole-Timers.

[dansouth]

Originally posted by coyote:

In some cases, formal education does indeed wreak havoc on almost ALL students. Anyone out there remember the myths you were taught as 'facts'? Most college history teachers spend inordinate amounts of time undoing the 'education' we have received in elementary & high school. Those classes are nothing more than indoctrination - they do not teach people how to think. And that truly is damaging.

 

 

I agree that most history courses are full of lies, or at least highly biased positions. George Washington never cut down a cherry tree. He and his troops did brutally kill a French officer at a time when our colonies had no stated quarrel with the French.

 

Interestingly, after WWII, the Japanese took on a project to read the history books of the countries toward whom they had perpetrated aggressions and have tried to themselves in a more balanced light. This would be a beneficial reality check for many countries.

[dansouth]

Originally posted by Lee Flier:

Well, you just completely ignored part of my post in order to stay stuck in your thought box.

 

Oh my God, Lee, you know, you're so right! I'm such a stupid, mindless imbecile. Boy, it never occurred to me to negotiate a transfer to Italy (well actually it did, but it was refused). It never occurred to me to spend time living in an Italian neighborhood (well, actually it did, but I wanted to learn REAL Italian, not a dialect). It never occurred to me to hang out with Italian friends (well, actually it did, but their patience wore out quickly; but they became much more supportive once I started classes). It never occurred to me to take an extended vacation in Europe (well, actually it did, but instead of going there as a pompous, English-only American, I decided to show them the respect of learning to communicate in their language before hopping on a plane, which I might add, made my time there FAR more rewarding.)

 

I am SO glad that you brilliant folks have shown me the error of my ways. My poor pathetic little intellect has been so viciouly locked up in a "box," loathe to accept insight or common sense of any flavor. How can I ever thank you for pointing out how worthless my life has become as a result of my horrible experiences in school and college? Somebody give me a dunce cap, PLEASE!!!!

 

When you consider all of the negative influences in the lives of young people - violence on the streets, violence in the home, abuse, drugs, negative marketing, poor role models, broken homes, violence in the media, high-pressure advertising - those horrible meanies who run our schools somehow don't look so bad.

 

Some things will never change. People who don't have children will think that they can tell you how to raise your kids. People who can't stay in a relationship will think they can tell you how to run your marriage. People who've never made a film or released an album think they can criticize those who have. And people with little or no education think that they know what needs to be done to improve our educational institutions.

[Lee Flier]

Dan, where you get the idea that I think you're stupid and have no common sense, I don't know. And where you get the idea that I'm "telling anybody what to do," even "what needs to be done to improve the educational system," I don't know either.

 

If you can find anyplace in this thread where I have done any of those things, please point them out and I will apologize and make amends immediately.

 

--Lee

[dansouth]

Originally posted by Lee Flier:

Dan, where you get the idea that I think you're stupid and have no common sense, I don't know. And where you get the idea that I'm "telling anybody what to do," even "what needs to be done to improve the educational system," I don't know either.

 

If you can find anyplace in this thread where I have done any of those things, please point them out and I will apologize and make amends immediately.

 

--Lee

 

Lee, perhaps it is I who should apologize, but the post that I quoted, plus a previous post listing mutliple ways to approach learning a language, gave me the impression that you think that (a) I did not consider any of these other methods, and (b) my first inclination was to take a class rather than consider alternatives. Neither is true. In fact, most of my language training has been non-traditional, e.g. learning phrases from people I work with, studying tapes, watching foreign films, participating in informal discussion groups, reading foreign magazines and newspapers, etc. Furthermore, in many other areas of life - including most of what I know about music - I am nearly 100% self-taught. I hope it's clear that I'm not some sort of teacher's pet who can't figure out how to learn a subject without the guidance of an instructor.

 

The reason that I have been trying to champion education in this thread is that I have found that (in general) I have made better progress in subjects where I have included formal classwork. I can speak French and Italian far better than Spanish or Japanese, because I've taken classes in the first two but only studied the latter two informally. Classes have given me a more complete understanding of these subjects, pushed me in directions I had never considered myself, and gave me the opportunity to practice with a variety of other people. I taught myself how to play bass, but years later, when I started working with a teacher, he helped me to work out technical problems and exposed me to ideas that I hadn't ever considered.

 

You sister's plight is a familiar one. I took a year of German in college, and I can't even complete a German sentence. Not all educational experiences are worthwhile. Luckily, the school where I learned Italian uses a highly effective teaching approach, including a "no English" rule. (My German class was taught completely in English.) We need to be discriminating students if we are to get the most out of any educational experience. Judge a teacher or a curiculum the way you would judge a producer or an engineer. If they're not getting the job done, you follow them at our own peril.

 

Education is not and cannot be the ideal method of knowledge transfer. I would learn more about engineering by working with Roger Nichols than I would by taking classes. But that's not a practical approach. Maybe a few people can work directly with Roger, but for a larger number of students, a more efficient knowledge transfer method must be developed. Organized instruction can be a highly effective method for teaching many subjects, especially when that instruction includes hands on, lab-style, training. By taking what top engineers know, organizing it into a progressive presentation and measuring retention, a class can be developed that can enable thousands of aspiring engineers to learn the tricks of the masters. Is it as good as working with Roger? No, certainly not. But it can ramp most students up faster than reading or dabbling on their own. Plus, the training has the secondary benefit of advancing the student to a level where they can be of some use to a professional engineer, making an internship mutually desirable. When the student participates in an internship, gaps in the classroom instruction will be eliminated. All in all, it's a very efficient and effective system, because the expert does not need to train each and every student from the ground up.

 

Yes, other educational approaches exist. The student who takes advantage of the largest number of effective approaches will comes out ahead in the long run. Take a class, read articles, dabble on your own projects, take another class at a different institution, attend a lecture, pick up tips from internet forums, read books, take an internship. If you want to get ahead in any field, you have to be as aggressive as you can. But I maintain that WORTHWHILE classroom experience - unlike my German classes - will help the student to advance REGARDLESS of what other paths he or she may follow.

[D. Gauss]

i know its not a computer, but can someone help me figure out how to program the clock on my VCR?.... http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif

 

-d. gauss

[Master Zap]

I think the big difference here is between

 

A TAKING a class in something

and

B Having a class in something-or-other shoved down your throat

 

/Z

[Hippie]

Here's an anecdote I'd like to share.

I work in the data networking field, I have 8 guys I am working with. I have no formal training whatsoever, all has been learned on the job, for 9 years, doing the work the more experienced guys told me to do.

Often we hire a new guy that has formal training, assuming, this is the "creme of the crop". I have been told by several of these guys things like, "I didn't go to 4 years of college to run cables under a computer room floor", or "I will not be relegated to doing mindless data back-up's", etc.

All these chores are part of the networking biz, and has to be done. If formal education is filling peoples heads with this kind of, "I'm far too educated for THAT type of work" attitude, then it has actually hurt themselves & the companies that hire them. Mind you, these people are new to the corporate world, and maybe they haven't been smacked into shape by life yet, or maybe this could be a symptom of the MTV generation.

...not a good sign of the future. IMO

 

-Hippie