Why are so many musicians computer programmers?

[-]

This has perplexed me for years, so I gotta ask: Why are so many musicians also computer programmers? It seems like these two skills are about as opposite as they can be.

 

Just curious to hear your comments and opinions.

 

(Don't just answer, "To pay the bills!" http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif )

[Lee Flier]

Heh... funny question. I totally fell into becoming a programmer and I agree with you, the mindsets are as opposite as night and day to me. A lot of more classically minded musicians would disagree - they'd say that music theory and computer theory have some correlation. To me, they've always been different animals, although I do systems design and that entails some creative thinking.

 

The main reason I pursued programming was because I had an aptitude for it, because I needed a job that paid me enough to support my music habit http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif, and also that was flexible enough that it wouldn't conflict with music. Most programmers have a little more leeway in working hours, dress code and stuff like that than your average worker. I in fact work at home and so if I have to sleep in after a late night session or gig, no problem.

 

I enjoy programming all right; it's interesting and very abstract and practical at the same time. I don't generally talk about work when I'm done though; I finish my work and then it's off to play music. I also hate "talking shop" with programmers but I will talk shop forever with musicians and engineers. So you can see where my priorities are. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

 

--Lee

[dansouth]

Because we need the money. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif

 

I've noticed this phenomenon for many years, and I don't have an explanation for it. I have yet to meet a programmer-poet, programmer-writer (non-technical), or programmer-sculptor. But, man, there ARE a lot of musicians in the data processing field.

 

I have to disagree with Lee that the mindsets are different. I really enjoy developing programs, which for the uninitiated, is a lot like solving a puzzle. Think of the satisfaction you feel when you've completed a crossword or jigsaw puzzle, or when you've beaten someone at a challenging game, like backgammon, and you have an idea of how I feel when I complete a computer program. It gives me real high, similar to the high I feel when I've completed a composition or recording.

 

In this age of plug-ins, ProTools, file transfers, web sites, and backups, many musicians, composers, and engineers are required to be computer literate. This brings the music and computer fields closer together for many people. If you can figure out how to get ProTools up and running, print CD labels, and balance your books in Excel, for instance, designing a web site isn't going to be a big leap beyond what you already know.

[Lee Flier]

Dan, I agree that programming is a lot like solving a puzzle, only you get paid for it. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

 

However, the feeling I get from nailing a composition, or getting a killer take or a killer mix on a recording, or playing a great gig, is a totally different type of "high". It's more intense and more sensual. Don't know how else to describe it.

 

But there are many like you who think they are more similar than I do.

 

--Lee

[Calfee Jones]

I read an article a few years back that talked about similarities between programming and being a musician. It pointed out that programming can also be a creative endeavor (though not always), and that musicians and programmers both spend alot of time 'woodshedding', perfecting their skills on their own. It had some other good points I don't remember right now.

 

There has always been a connection between mathematics and music. Back in the ancient cultures the mathematicians were always musicians and philosophers too. So it seems like math, music, and philosophy all go together.

 

Before colleges were teaching computer science as an individual course of study IBM would recruit music majors so they could teach them programming. IBM felt that the musicians had an aptitude for programming.

 

I am also a programmer/musician, sitting here at work typing this on my employer provided computer and internet connection... ;-)

[-]

I have two theories, neither of which explains this phenomenon to my satisfaction:

 

1) Some people like the idea of creating order from chaos, or something out of nothing. Creating music and computer programs both do this.

 

2) Programming is essentially a left-brained activity, and music is essentially a right-brained activity. Many people need to access both halves of the brain in order to feel "complete". Kind of like a yin yang sort of thing.

[Chip McDonald]

I think it may seem that way on the Net because of the nature of the medium, but I do know a couple of friends who are both musicians and programmers....

 

I got into computer programming before playing guitar. I found the TRS-80 to be a box of mysterious curious potential when it debuted. I had always liked technical things and have a knack for figuring things out, so a computer is a given...

 

But the thing that was totally enthralling was the notion of the computer being a vehicle for exacting creativity! I learned BASIC as a kid because I wanted to program my own games, which I did. I made a primitive Space Invaders clone using the pathetic graphics array available to the TRS-80, and parts of other games...

 

Ultimately I learned a good bit of C, C++, a bit of Pascal, dabbled with 8086 Assembly, and made some Dbase applications using the Clipper compiler... Ultimately I wanted to make my own games, so I was halfway sticking my toe in learning the math around 3-D games: boundary maps, edge clipping, gouraud shading bs, etc...

 

.. but by that time I had started playing guitar. My brain didn't work the same because I realized music was a more immediate and visceral creative outlet, so I wasn't as enthused to continue with programming. Plus - playing music is apparently what I'm supposed to do, completely natural, like breathing air....

 

So right now - I don't remember hardly *anything* about programming....

 

The point is that I was into programming for the potential to create. I think that's probably the common impetus, if any. Friends have fallen into programming by default it would seem - I still find it curious to know friends who are computer literate and musicians as well, just as I remember a time when *no one* knew what the Internet was, much less had an interest in HTML or C.

 

Ultimately it's a job that, if one has a mind free of music, allows a near-musician like lifestyle: flexible hours, lax dress code, rewards for intense creativity.

 

http://www.mp3.com/chipmcdonald

[-]

Originally posted by Chip McDonald:

Ultimately it's a job that, if one has a mind free of music, allows a near-musician like lifestyle: flexible hours, lax dress code, rewards for intense creativity.

 

I like this explanation. Of course, your mind does not have to be "free of music" so long as you're allowed to listen to music via headphones or computer speakers. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

 

 

This message has been edited by popmusic on 04-30-2001 at 04:25 PM

[dansouth]

Originally posted by popmusic:

2) Programming is essentially a left-brained activity, and music is essentially a right-brained activity. Many people need to access both halves of the brain in order to feel "complete". Kind of like a yin yang sort of thing.

 

I have to disagree, and in the process I'll explain why I think music and programming are so similar. It's not that one is left-brain and the other is right-brain. Music and programming both require lateral thinking, i.e. communication between BOTH sides of the brain.

 

When you get a feeling that you want to express through music, or when you're wailing on an improvised solo, you're deeply in right brain territory. But when you're "working out" the chords and melodies that express your musical idea, or when you're trying out soloing ideas over an unfamiliar set of changes, you're being very analytical, i.e. you're using the left brain.

 

In programming, when I program details in the code or check the syntax of an unfamiliar statement, I'm using my left brain. But when I get a sudden flash of inspiration as to how to solve a complex logic problem that's had me agonizing for two days, I'm deep into the right side. I'll hurriedly jot down notes in that tell-tale right-brain scribble. Sometimes I'll write the idea in pictures, because I can't think in words at the moment. I usually run to the computer as fast as I can, because I don't want to think, I just want to let the ideas pour through me, the same way I feel when I'm composing or soloing.

 

In both disciplines, we combine inspiration (right brain) with organization (left brain) to create the end result. The right brain comes up with an idea, and the left brain critiques and molds it into something polished. This is one reason why it's difficult to record yourself. It's hard to escape into the right brain, where the feeling and inspiration lie, when your left brain has to worry about wires, files, and signal levels. I prefer a simplified, streamlined setup that allows my right brain to run wild with new ideas.

[batman forgot his cape]

Hey Dan

This is all very well, but I find a Steinway,B3 or a Strat FAR more forgiving than a Mac or Wintel box.....

Hey,Chip, nice to hear you got a couple of friends..... http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif

Regards

Ade

[michael saulnier]

I own a placement firm that specializes in programmers and I see programmer/musicians all the time. But, I would ask the question the other way... Why are so many computer programmers musicians?

 

It's computer programming that has changed the employment market with the sheer volume of positions. Millions are employed in this way. If being a musician were merely random selection, there would still be lots of musicians in such a large group...

 

But I do believe that it's more than random. As other posts have said, the employees in the software development world tend to be creative types, most believe they CAN create "something from nothing", and they also have the type of personalities that can offset short term difficulties with long term objectives.

 

For example, it takes years to be a "good" programmer. Both intellect and patience are needed. Same for being a musician. With the rare "prodigy" exception, most musicians and programmers had to put up with "being bad" before they were good. If you don't "believe" you can be a good musician, (or programmer), you'll probably never keep trying long enough to find out.

 

They also make the kind of salaries that allow them to purchase the "finer things in life" including guitars, keyboards, drums, DAW's and so on.

 

I also agree that the "culture" of programmers is typically a pretty "cool" one. Casual clothing, working conditions, flexible hours... it's all attractive to musicians.

 

There's also a HUGE age discrimination in the software development world. Once you hit say 40, you're an old timer... at 50 you're a dino... The typical age of the programmers we place is around 28... and owns a guitar!

 

guitplayer

[Quin]

I started playing guitar aged 5 and fell into computers aged 18. By the time I was 30 I was running the worlds largest and fastest supercomputer...while running a music business and studio on the side, and in the evenings. They all seemed to complement each other somehow.

 

A lot of the really techy people I know are also awesome musicians....there seems to be a link - its mathematical - and I think has to do with how people handle/recognize patterns, phrasing & progressions. A lot of music is about structure and patterns - the same is true with computers - especially programming and math. You will find a lot of math in music - and music expression can only be done through math - whether you like it or understand it...or not. (Ability to count here is a must!....at least to 4 anyway http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif ) )

 

Do know if that helps explain it....but its a close as I going to get tonight http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif

 

This message has been edited by Quin on 04-30-2001 at 09:09 PM

[Michael Riehle]

Okay, well, I got into programming through sheer nepotism and I'm not afraid to admit it. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/tongue.gif My father had some leverage and got me a job.

 

So, I've been allowed exposure to two generations of perspective on stuff like this. As if that weren't enough, my father is the sort of person who tracks down and reads studies on sociology and such for entertainment (okay, so am I sometimes).

 

So, I think I'd been programming for all of a year when he pointed out to me that he'd found a study in some ACM publication where they'd found a high corellation between programming ability and musical ability. High enough, apparently, that one could almost be considered a predictor of the other.

 

I've never seen the study, much less read it. I can't even confirm its existance.

 

But a lot of the best programmers I've known over the years play a musical instrument - often several - at high levels of proficiency.

 

Some of it - I think - is the creativity issue already discussed in this thread. But, frankly, I think some of it is sheer, bloody-minded perfectionism.

 

How many of you who are programmers have ever spent hours on a program fixing "just one more bug"? http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

 

How many of you musicians have ever spent hours getting a riff "just a little smoother"? http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

 

See what I mean?

 

OTOH, don't mistake this as meaning that talent isn't important in both pursuits. The talent must be there or the work is pointless. It's just that without the work, the talent is wasted in both disciplines.

 

 

------------------

Michael Riehle

Bass Player/Band Leader

fivespeed

CA Local Bay Area Music Webring

 

This message has been edited by mriehle on 04-30-2001 at 09:42 PM

[-]

Just a slightly off-topic tidbit... I've read that Elvis Costello was a computer programmer before he went into music full time.

 

Thanks, everybody -- These are all great responses!

[Hippie]

I'm not a computer programmer, but I work on IP networks, (which require some programming). When I started I didn't know shit, but I found it easy to understand the concept of how serial multiplexors worked, from having some experience running sound for my band. -If you know how a mixer or MIDI works, you can easily understand the "data-channeling" that networks use. -even a modem is a D/A - A/D converter. I'ts not coincedent that a lot of computer people are musicians; I think the technologies are similar.

 

 

-Hippie

[Anderton]

>>It seems like these two skills are about as opposite as they can be.<<

 

Quite the opposite, I think: both disciplines have a limited instruction set that can be combined in an almost infinite number of ways. And when you hook them together just right, you get something that's far more than the sum of the parts!

[alphajerk]

exactly craig.

 

and may i mention that music [aural stimulation] is in the rear of your brain, not the right side only, or the left side but drawing off both sides. visual is towards the front FWIW, again drawing off both sides.

[D. Gauss]

<

 

simple answer folks... to get laid. come on now, everyone knows that musicians don't stand a chance of picking up the opposite sex. but hey, do your best bill gates impression and you're living large at the playboy mansion! damn, i even bought some beige wrinkled slacks, some wire-rimmed glasses, and a copy of the book "pascal is better than mescal for dummies" just so i wouldn't have to pleasure myself any more! btw, chicks dig fortran!

 

-d. gauss

[dansouth]

Originally posted by Batman:

I find a Steinway,B3 or a Strat FAR more forgiving than a Mac or Wintel box.....

 

You obviously haven't heard ME play the piano. :-P

[GZsound]

Once again, I find a very interesting subject on this list..I have been trying to think of any musician I know that is a computer geek except for one bass playing friend. I must know a couple of hundred musicians and not one of them programs computers..go figger.

 

------------------

Mark G.

[dansouth]

Originally posted by mriehle:

But, frankly, I think some of it is sheer, bloody-minded perfectionism.

 

Absolutely. Programmers can fall into the same trap that vexes songwriters and recording musicians, i.e. wanting to add more, more, more features and enhancements, and not being able to let a release go out the door without "one more tweak." Programmers and musicians are both very detail oriented, and they both tend to become lost in their work, losing track of time very easily. Their respective dress codes hint at this intense level of distraction. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif

[stratman_dup1]

Hah, you'll love this one Popmusic. I'm a musician who is thinking of getting into programming!!! HAHAHA

 

Actually I am considering it because my current day job is just getting to be too time constrictive, plus there's no challenge in it anymore.

 

A little history, I didn't get into playing music seriously until I was 26. Don't ask me why, I guess I just thought up until that point that you had to be *born* with it, or come from a musical family or some such nonsense. For about ten years playing acoustic guitar was just an on again/ off again pastime. But when I was 26 I remember going to see this Blues band, and the guitar player was just wailin away, and I swear I could just FEEL the music down in my soul and I KNEW I had to try so I started taking lessons.

 

Well, by that time I had already gotten into the Manufacturing field, working as a machine operator in a machine shop. It's not a bad job if you can find a shop that allows you to do some programming and be involved in the process of developing programs for the machines and become a part of the problem solving process. Well, those type of jobes are few and far between, and needless to say that's not what I'm doing. Plus the working schedules are not flexible at all, 9-5 everyday (or in my case 3:15 pm to 11:15 pm, just put me on second shift :-( )

 

So now I'm stuck with a mortgage, car payments, blah blah blah, and I have to make a certain income. I'm not rich by any means but I don't do too bad either, but that's the problem. How to get out of the industry all my knowledge is in and get into another one that I find more appealing and still be able to pay the bills??? I've always been a natural with techy things, computers have always come fairly easy to me and I'm a natural at math so I know I could be a good programmer. Plus the nice things already listed such as dress code and working hours, not too mention income.

 

But how to get started?? I can't quit my job :-( :-( , and if I go to college during the day then there's no time for music. Well, that's obviously not an option either so I guess for now I'm just stuck.

 

Anybody got any good ideas??

 

I know, I'll just skip the programming thing, quit my day job, file for bankruptcy and go on the road. Yeah, my wife would REALLY love that one http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gifhttp://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

[dansouth]

Originally posted by Stratman:

But how to get started?? I can't quit my job :-( :-( , and if I go to college during the day then there's no time for music. Well, that's obviously not an option either so I guess for now I'm just stuck.

 

Anybody got any good ideas??

 

You need two things: training and a machine to practice on. Can you convince your employer to pay for some technical training, either a couple of weeks during the year or some evening classes at a community college? If not, take the community college classes and pay for them yourself. Also, buy one or two of those "Teach Yourself in 21 Days" style computer books. They're very good, and you'd be surprised how many pros get their feet wet with new technology this way.

 

Hopefully you have a computer that you can practice on. There's a lot of free software available today. If you have a browser (and you obviously do), you can learn HTML and JavaScript (both free). Java is free. Perl is free. Linux is essentially free. Lots of other stuff, too. But you need to try some things to see what you like. Tech is a broad field; there's no reason to work on something you detest.

[-]

Originally posted by Stratman:

But how to get started?? I can't quit my job :-( :-( , and if I go to college during the day then there's no time for music. Well, that's obviously not an option either so I guess for now I'm just stuck.

 

Anybody got any good ideas??

 

I was kind of in a similar situation a few years ago. I always enjoyed programming and music since I was a kid, but I ended up going the music route through college.

 

I did some producing/engineering in my local music/video scene for a few years, found it wasn't for me, and then went back to school for computer science. In my spare time, I created a 3D video game, and then ended up landing the position I have now (programming business applications) on the basis of the programs I wrote in my spare time.

 

You mentioned that you don't know where you would find time for music if you went back to school... I ended up putting all of my music stuff away for several years while I taught myself what I wanted to learn with computers. For those couple of years, my desire to jump start my career in a new direction was stronger than my desire to play music, so the music gear went into storage, unfortunately... http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/frown.gif

 

However, I *always* have music playing when I'm programming (even now), and I feel like my ears are actually better than they were a few years ago, just because I've done a lot more *listening* than playing. Now that I have more spare time than I did a few years ago, I've started taking back up the music thing, just for fun, not profit.

 

If you're able to learn things on your own, try to create some programs where you could show a potential employer your computer skills. School is a good idea if you can afford it, but buying/borrowing lots of computer books and devouring them can teach you a lot too. Good luck on your career move!

 

 

 

This message has been edited by popmusic on 05-15-2001 at 11:14 AM

[Calfee Jones]

Stratman - just to add to what the others said -

 

I didn't go to college until I was 28, 10 years after high school, and more that a little tired of not having the money it takes to get the equipment you need for musical pursuits. I studied computer science and graduated with a B.S. (yea, yea... i Know ;-).

 

While I was in school I didn't have time to play. But after I was through (6 years later) I was able to invest in some gear and get it going again. I guess the bottom line is that sometimes it can be good to make a time investment in order to make things better for yourself on down the road. It's easy to be impatient, but hopefully we all still have long lives to live - so we can get done what we want to get done.

[Dylan]

Because having to eat Top Ramen sucks ;-).

 

-Dylan

[Chip McDonald]

Originally posted by guitplayer:

I own a placement firm that specializes in programmers and I see programmer/musicians all the time. But, I would ask the question the other way... Why are so many computer programmers musicians?

 

More people play guitar than is probably acknowledged. I was just flipping through an F1 racing magazine, and read where Ferrari driver Rubens Barichello "wants to improve his guitar playing".... another F1 magazine shows drivers Jacques Villeneuve and Damon Hill playing guitar.

 

You never know who plays guitar as a hobby. People who can afford to dabble in it usually do. You have to figure that these days most everyone alive has had an interest in music based on guitar one way or another, and even if only half the population thinks to themselves "hmmm... it would be neat to learn how to play guitar" that's a pretty big group of people.

 

The restricting factor being the stigma attached to it that it isn't a "serious" thing to pursue in some circles. In other words, for certain job descriptions - an employer might not like the idea that Mr. Respectable Employee is moonlighting as a guitar player. On the other hand - programmers usually don't suffer from this situation (witness Lee).

 

That stigma is passing though, and I think it will be more evident over time that playing guitar is probably almost like a person having been in little league or some such, something that's not surprising at all an almost expected.

 

Here's hoping as a guitar teacher.....

 

 

http://www.mp3.com/chipmcdonald

[Lee Flier]

Yeah I agree with Dylan. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

 

Well, I have never been one who got along with formal education very well. I think my brain must just work differently from most people's (maybe it's a lefty thing) because the way they teach things in school I never learned anything. I just got bored to death, and it takes a lot to bore me. If I'd ever taken a computer class in school I'm pretty certain I never would have wanted to touch a computer again.

 

I didn't get exposed to computers or know anything about them until well after I got out of school, which I did at 16. A few years later I was working as a staff engineer in a little studio in L.A. and the owner got a PC for doing administrative type stuff. He also got one of the earlier consoles that had automation. So that was my first exposure to computers. I didn't learn too much about them then, just enough to get around.

 

Then I quit engineering full time, right around the time the Linn drum came out http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif, and picked up a temp job doing clerical work for minimum wage. They had a PC in the department where I worked, but no one used it much. Nobody knew how at the time and their IS department was totally un-helpful. It occurred to me that the accounting work that I was doing would be a lot easier to do on the computer. Well funnily enough, my boss at this job was an ex musician! He'd taken a liking to me and he told me if I wanted to spend some company time trying to figure out how to automate my work on the computer that was OK with him. So I took home the manuals Lotus 1-2-3 and BASIC, and later dBase, and started trying to figure out how to do these reports that we were doing by hand. I ended up staying at that "temp" job for 2 years and tripling my pay. That led to me being able to get a "real programming" job.

 

So that is how I learned - from having access to a machine and having a concrete task to do. Don't know if it would work for you or not, but it's an option and it's cheaper than school. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif I also think the quality of computer education isn't that great. After all, if somebody was a good programmer why would they be teaching when they could earn so much more from programming? I'm sure there are a few good teachers out there, but most computer classes I see focus on technologies that are obsolete. It depends what area you go into, of course, but if you're doing business programming a prospective employer is more likely to be impressed by real-world business skills than a degree. They've seen too many kids come to work for them with computer science degrees who can't speak plain language to users and have no idea what the objective of their work is.

 

Anyhow. Just some encouragement if you want to get into this business and are daunted by the idea of having to get a degree.

 

--Lee

[MusicWorkz]

*Stepping up to the mic*

 

My name is MusicWorkz and I am a Civil Engineer by training. I have my PE but I gave it all up when I discovered I was more of a people person than I wanted to admit. I always did music throughout school, but when I decided to get my MBA in marketing, I said WTF and focued on building my business and musicianshp skills. I can say without a shadow of a doubt, I do NOT mis doing what I considered homework for 50 hours a week...

[Scott from MA]

I am a different type of programmer... I write programs that control robotics and large-scale automation. I never actually set out to be a programmer. I got my degree in electronics because I wanted to build guitar effects for a living. I took a job in engineering just so I could pay for school. While I was working here, I sort of stumbled into the programming thing, and found out I have a real natural talent for it.

 

I'm actually thinking of going back to school again to get a computer science degree. Of course... I'd STILL rather build guitars and effects for a living! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif