PC VS. MAC?

[Nickie]

I've been using a PC based recording medium for over a year now, and most of the people I encounter are using Mac's. Although, my pc crashes once and a while I think it works well for the most part. I have never used a mac for recording purposes before but the "PRO'S" tell me "Once you use a mac you'll never go back to pc again." They say its a lot more stable, user friendly, also the G4 clocks faster then a 700Mhz Intel etc. What do you guys think out there? Can someone please explain it to me once and for all???

[Beatheavy]

NOT AGAIN>>>>>>>>

Seek and you shall find.

JLB

[Nickie]

Simple question?

[soapbox]

Nickie, if you're looking to start a flame war go to The Keyboard Corner. They're having a tongue in cheek Troll Season there.

 

If this is an innocent question, you have unwittingly resumed the most common subject in these forums. This is probably also the most passionately fought subject online, which indicates that we may each need to get a life.

 

If you want a reasonable and thought out response, check out this EQ column by David Frangioni:

 

http://www.eqmag.com/0201/column_frangioni_103.html

[Nickie]

Thanks for the lead; the last thing I wanted to do today was cause a big stink among you guys. I guess its a matter of subjectivity.

[Anderton]

Yes, this is one that was even hot back in my days at AOL, and has surfaced a few times here. But it is an important matter to many people.

 

I use both computers, and to me computers are not a religion, but a type of appliance. The reference to David's article is a good one, but I would add that you can make music with either computer. Also, one very important thing to add that HASN'T been brought up in these forums is that the answer is a moving target. Up until about 1995, the Mac was without question the dominant music computer. From 1995 onward, the PC started taking over, to the point where the Mac could no longer claim dominance. However, Pro Tools on the Mac is a de facto hard disk recording standard; I think the reason so many pros are into the Mac is because it runs Pro Tools.

 

On the other hand, musicians who are more into the techno type thing often go with the PC because of programs like Acid, which perform best on the PC.

Currently, Mac OS X is DOA for music - but there are rumors of what's to come in the next revision, which sounds like it could be very music/audio friendly.

 

I guess the bottom line is that 2 years from now, the Mac or the PC could be the dominant computer. If your PC works for you except for an occasional crash, fine. Macs crash too.

 

As to me, it's PC for desktop, Mac for portable and live performance.

[Nickie]

So I'm Using a Cubase setup actually, do many Producers or record companys use Cubase? Any hit records? If not why?

[dansouth]

Both platforms are good. With PC's you have to be careful about software selection. ProTools will not run on 98. GigaSampler will not run on NT. Kind of puts you in a bind if you want to run both. On the other hand, Giga will not run on a Mac at all.

 

Macs are a little less complicated and more straightforward than PC's, but PC's have much more to offer in terms of general software availability. If you're used to a PC, and if your associates use PC's, there's probably not a good argument to switch. Software and hardware installations tend to go a little more smoothly on the Mac, but it's not nearly as big a difference as it was five years ago. If you get a Mac, stay away from OS-X until developers have a chance to update their software. No music software runs on OS-X yet.

 

P.S. I tried to make this a balanced post. No flaming necessary.

[Hippie]

Just for the mere fact that there is more people to call with help, when your PC isn't working properly, is reason enough for me to choose a PC. -Okay, let me duck out of the way before you start shooting....

[MusicMan]

I learned most of what I know of computers on a PC. About 2 and a half years ago, I started working on Macs for graphic arts.

 

I feel I am pretty proficient on both machines now, and though they both have little quirks, I think Macs OS is a little more stable than most Windows machines. I appreciate the aesthetics of the Mac OS more than Windows, and find it less "clunky".

 

That said, I love both of them. I find that a powerful computer is a powerful computer regardless of OS.

 

I use a Mac at home and a PC at the office for my business, I have lightening fast cable modem connections on both, I use good-pro graphics programs on both, stream and download audio, etc...

 

I have not yet jumped into anything but the most peripheral music applications yet. That is still down the road for me.

 

I think the technology is such that we are finally at a point, for the most part, where any decision by a relative novice about purchasing a computer should be about features, price, and software compatability. The PC vs. Mac war won't be about stability or power or ease of use anymore, it will be about peripherals, speed, and software.

[dansouth]

Originally posted by Nickie:

...the G4 clocks faster then a 700Mhz

 

This is a subject for a heated debate, but you can be certain that the Mac is faster at the same clock speed on processor intensive applications. In other words, a 500 MHz G4 is going to be faster than a 500MHz Pentium III. How much faster is a good question. I don't think the engineers really know. Is a 500 MHz G4 faster than a 1G Pentium? Maybe. A lot depends on the application. If the application is tuned for the G4, it's going to SCREAM on that machine.

 

If the application is I/O intensive, then processor speed doesn't matter. Recording is both I/O and processor intensive, so it's hard to determine how well either machine will do by looking at specs. Ask around. Find out what systems people are using, how many tracks they can record or play back, how many simultaneous plug ins they can use. Empirical evidence is better than G4/Pentium spec comparisons, because the chips are designed differently.

[soapbox]

Originally posted by Nickie:

So I'm Using a Cubase setup actually, do many Producers or record companys use Cubase? Any hit records? If not why?

 

To start with, while record companies often oversee the recording process, it is almost always the producer or artist who chooses the method of recording, such as whether or not to use Cubase.

 

I believe that Cubase is the most popular sequencer in Europe for creating music. Logic Audio is also used extensively there. Im sure that plenty of hit records have been made using both programs. Both of these programs are available on both the PC and the Mac and both of these programs were created by German companies.

 

In America and Japan, I believe that the American-made Digital Performer is still the most popular software sequencer, and it is only available on the Mac. Cakewalk used to be the most popular sequencer on the PC side, but when Cubase and Logic became available for the PC, they cut dramatically into Cakewalks user base.

 

As Craig mentioned, ProTools is the standard audio recording program used in high-end recording studios. While ProTools is available for the PC, the vast majority of ProTools user base uses the Macintosh version of the program.

[soapbox]

Nickie, Im going to include a little history now, in case you are interested in understanding why things are the way they are. (I should get most of this right.)

 

A decade ago, the Macintosh had a much more basic version of the same operating system it uses today. It had the first popularly available graphic user interface (GUI). On the other hand, "Windows" had yet to be designed for the PC. Instead, DOS was the operating system on all PCs, and the PC had yet to become the dominant platform. DOS didnt appeal to creative types, who instead generally chose to use the Mac or the Atari to use for making music. Back then, two sequencing programs dominated the Mac platform, Vision and Performer. On the Atari, Cubase and Notator held the same prominence. The Macintosh was more popular in America and the Atari was more popular in Europe.

 

None of these programs could record audio, so they mostly appealed to keyboard players. Shortly after that time, a company called Digidesign created a program called Sound Tools. Sound Tools was designed as an audio editing program for the Mac. It became popular with engineers and Macintosh computers began to appear in major recording studios. Soon afterward, Digidesign replaced Sound Tools with ProTools, which at the time was another Mac only program. ProTools was designed not just for audio editing, but for audio recording as well. As I recall, the earliest version of ProTools topped out at 16 tracks, so its use was limited in high-end recording studios. However, a foothold was established.

 

Then somebody had the bright idea that sequencing would go very well with hard disk recording. Digidesign and the makers of Vision, Opcode, were both located in Silicon Valley, unlike the other companies mentioned above. They formed an alliance in which Opcode would use Digidesigns audio interface to incorporate audio into Opcodes sequencing package. It was this way that Opcodes Studio Vision, the first sequencing + audio software, was born.

 

The creators of Notator began a new company, Emagic, which created a product called Logic. Then Atari went under and Cubase and Logic began their migration to the Mac platform. At the same time, the creators of Performer, Cubase, and Logic followed Opcodes example and formed alliances with Digidesign. They all created sequencing + audio versions of their products: Digital Performer, Cubase XT, and Logic Audio. All were Mac only programs. Digidesign continued to improve ProTools and added very basic MIDI support using Opcodes OMS.

 

Also during this period, Windows came out on the PC. As well all know, it was very popular. Within just a few years, the balance of power in the personal computer industry shifted dramatically in favor of the Intel/Microsoft alliance; and Apple Computer, the makers of the Macintosh, came very close to going out of business. Versions of Cubase, Logic, and ProTools all came out on the PC and Opcode went under while trying to create a PC version of Studio Vision.

 

When Steve Jobs, one of the founders of Apple Computer, returned in 1997 the damage had been done. The PC was firmly in control of the marketplace. Jobs turned the company around and most of the upper echelons of the music business remained Mac users, but there are now only a few other market segments, such as desktop publishing, that have a huge Mac base.

 

During the mid-nineties, ProTools became the standard for audio editing. Since then ProTools has become trusted by engineers and studios for tracking as well and many people are now beginning to trust it for mixing. ProTools has expanded its MIDI features as well and now covers all of the fundamentals of sequencing. Digital Performer, Cubase VST, and Logic Audio now each support many other audio cards besides those made by Digidesign, including some of their own. All have improved their programs extensively over the years and all are used by professionals.

 

I know Ive left out some things, but this has gotten to be a long post so Ill stop here. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif

[Jose Cobelas]

Originally posted by soapbox:

I know Ive left out some things, but this has gotten to be a long post so Ill stop here. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif

 

Ahemmm. VERY ELEGANT. A fine way of leaving us Cakewalk users out of the picture...what do you want, a FLAME WAR?? http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif

 

Besos,

 

JoseC.

[soapbox]

Originally posted by jcobelas@navegalia.com:

A fine way of leaving us Cakewalk users out of the picture...what do you want, a FLAME WAR?? http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif

 

LOL! Actually, Im very pleased that we seem to be avoiding flames on this thread. Maybe theres hope for us yet! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif

 

To be honest, I know less about Cakewalk than any of the other programs I mentioned. I would welcome the opportunity to be educated.

 

I know that many professionals use Cakewalk to make music with and I do recall that Cakewalk was the first popular sequencer on the PC (as I mentioned in my post preceding the history post). I also seem to recall that Cakewalk just underwent a major upgrade. Is that right?

 

This message has been edited by soapbox on 04-23-2001 at 04:46 PM

[Nickie]

Nice post Soap! You should write a book! What I've learned here is this: If its not broken, why fix it. I think its got more to do with the song and the talent then computer or software. I'm actually a songwriter and all of the techniques I learn are going to something more grand... THE MUSIC.

[soapbox]

True. It's a lot more important what you do with something than what you've got. As long as what you've got allows you to do what you want to do, you're fine.

 

Best of luck Nickie!

[Guest]

If I remember correctly 1st version of cakewalk was around 86 (DOS of course). I'm not sure at what point it became a windows app. Probably after the release of win 3.0.

 

I think the user base for cakewalk is still larger than cubase (for PC of course).

 

And yes, cakewalk just came up with a new version, actually a new product SONAR (which replaced Pro Audio, the popular sequencer/audio package). Worth checking out.

 

Rod

[Anderton]

Cakewalk has a huge user base for the PC because yes, they've been there since the days of DOS, and have not had to dilute their efforts with other platforms. Curiously, they've had very lax copy protection and relatively low prices. Some think that has helped them acquire market share, because the relatively frequent, low-cost upgrades encouraged people using pirated software to "go legit" so they'd have quicker access to the real thing.

[not coaster MODERATOR]

Hello, I still have ver 1.? Cakewalk for DOS on an old 325sx in my office. Still works and works great!

[fantasticsound]

Several people have mentioned that ProTools is now available for the PC. This is kind of a lie by omission. Yes, there have been Digidesign products for the PC. Some, like ProTools LE share the name with the Mac software. But the best features and 3rd party hardware controls for ProTools are still limited to the Mac. I know PC studios with LE on a machine, just for importing ProTools files into their commercials, etc., but none of them track or mix in it. (One in particular is a post house using very high end DAW's for most of their recording/mixing. The word on the street is still stay away from PC based ProTools unless you need the flexibility to work on ProTools projects. (And you'd be much better off using a Mac, if that's the case.)

 

Neil

 

PS. I'm a PC user, so I really wish Digidesign would get their act together and support both platforms equally.

[soapbox]

Originally posted by fantasticsound:

Several people have mentioned that ProTools is now available for the PC. This is kind of a lie by omission.

 

Ooooh, thems fightin words! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif

 

I did leave a lot out of my long post above, but it was not to ignore Cakewalk or to lie about ProTools. To give the complete story would require a book, as Nickie suggested; and it would also require a lot of research on my part since I dont know this subject thoroughly. Not my gig...

 

However, Ill add this about Digidesign and the PC:

 

Chapter Two: http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif

Digidesign went from being a "Mac only" company to a "Mac first" company. This means that all new versions are released for the Mac first and PC versions are released months later. Digidesign has told me, though, that once the PC versions of ProTools are released they are exactly like the versions already released on the Mac.

 

Even so, the ProTools experience on the PC is not the same as that on the Mac because ProTools takes advantage of a lot of third party support in the form of plug-ins. Many (perhaps most?) of these third parties do not port their products over to the PC version of ProTools. Perhaps they feel its a waste of time because, as I was told by a Digidesign rep at this years Winter NAMM Show, "99% of ProTools user base is still on the Mac platform."

 

If this is actually true and if this ratio stays the same, I wonder how long Digidesign will continue to offer PC products. They ported their product to PC at a time when there was a very real danger of Apple going under. Since then, Apple has had a strong recovery and the expected exodus of Mac users to the PC never happened. At the same time, the PC community seems to have been as slow to embrace ProTools as they have been to jump ship to Macintosh. Who knows what the future holds?

 

At this time the Mac version of ProTools is at 5.1 and the PC version is still at 5.0. This may sound like a small gap, but 5.1 was a major upgrade. Digidesign chose to call it 5.1 instead of 6.0 because of 5.1s new support of surround sound formats (such as 5.1). The last I heard, the PC 5.1 version was due later this year.

 

This message has been edited by soapbox on 04-24-2001 at 01:13 AM

[Alndln]

Any program ported over to another platform will suffer,and that includes Pro Tools.No matter how hard companies like Steinberg try,Cubase will never have the stability of Cakewalk on the PC unless the program is completely rewritten and the Code completly changed,same with Pro Tools.If I wan't to bring something to the studio that was done on my PC I simply save as seperate wave files,batch convert to AIFF and save to a spare drive,pop the drive in the studios Mac and I'm good to go.I personally like PC software better,which is why I use it,especially with programs like Nuendo which I find superior to anything on any platform at the moment.Wer'e finally at the point it doesn't matter what you create on,the final results are what count.

[dansouth]

Originally posted by Nickie:

Nice post Soap! You should write a book! What I've learned here is this: If its not broken, why fix it. I think its got more to do with the song and the talent then computer or software. I'm actually a songwriter and all of the techniques I learn are going to something more grand... THE MUSIC.

 

The music and the talent definitely take precedence, but the tools can have considerable influence on the final product. I used to be a Vision user, but I can do much more in Logic, now that I'm comfortable with it. Some of my recent keyboard purchases are leaps and bounds ahead of the stuff I used to use. And comparing my AW4416 to my old Portastudio 244 is just plain silly. So, by all means, work on your songwriting technique, but at the same time, arm yourself with tools that work well in the context of your projects.

 

http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif

[dansouth]

Originally posted by Alndln@hotmail.com:

Any program ported over to another platform will suffer,and that includes Pro Tools.

 

I think that depends on the program and the dedication of the company that's doing the port. I have a copy of Vision for Windows that's a total joke. On the other hand, Logic, which - as soapbox so eloquently stated - started out on the Atari, is now arguably the most powerful program of its type for either the Mac or PC.

 

Gee whiz, soapbox! Maybe you and Ken Burns should do a MIDI documentary for PBS!!

[Alndln]

I definitly agree,Logic is the most sucsessful cross platform program and I should have pointed that out,but it seems to be the only one so far.Also what I meant by "it doesn't matter what you use",obviously within reason.You can probably use any number of stand alones(Yamaha/Roland/Korg ect.)or any host platform(Mac OS/Win/Linnux/Beos).What seems to matter most is what's in front of it......Talent/preamps/mics ect.

[Quin]

Coming from a Super Computer back ground, I always thought that PC stood for "Personal Cray" !

[soapbox]

Originally posted by dansouth@yahoo.com:

Gee whiz, soapbox! Maybe you and Ken Burns should do a MIDI documentary for PBS!!

 

LOL! I can see it now...

 

..."Those were crazy days when MOTU's Ralph 'Blind Lemon' Cook went on tour with Michael Jackson." cut to Ralph Cook. He says, "We went to New Zeland and Michael screamed 'he, he, he' and the crowd went wild! Little did we know that the hard drive was about to crash!"...

 

Hey Dan, howz it goin'?

[JingleJungle]

...aaaannnd the prize goes to....SOAPBOX!!! (applause)

Thanks for all the insights in the PC / MAC software evolution... your knowledge is truly enciclopaedic!

 

Instead of having other moderators dole out prizes for the most offensive contributions to a list (and I DON'T want to ignite any napalm here - I played as well), Musicplayer should make it a point of distributing some goodies to people who can actually contribute some quality to other people's musicianship!

 

Best regards,

Paul

[soapbox]

Wow Paul, thats very generous and nice of you to say what you said! Ive collected a little information from many years of making music. What I know is just a drop in the bucket, but thanks nonetheless. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif