Guitar techniques

[Nickie]

I have a takamine ef-380m and I'm trying to record it with a mic(s).

I have a Rode nt-2, and 2 AKG C-1000's Also I have a dbx 576 pre-amp going into the Mackie D8B into Cubase/32. I was wondering if anyone has any detailed config's to share... How many mics can you use?....mic placement...whitch mic(s) should be out of phase?... Is compression vital to the enhancement of the sound? Thanks

[Philip OKeefe]

Hmm, so many things you can try, and so little time to make dozens of suggestions. Welcome to the forum BTW.

 

Okay, if you're going for stereo acoustic, your two C1000's should work okay. Place one about 6 - 12" back from the guitar at the 14th fret, angled about 45 degrees towards the soundhole. The other one you'll want to place below and behind the bridge, somewhere over the lower bout of the guitar. Adjust positioning and angles until it sounds the way you want. Make sure you check for phase cancellation.

 

If you are going to track mono, you can try the Rode in the 14th fret position and see what you think of that sound vs. the AKG.

 

I'm sure others will be along with some suggestions for you shortly. You might also want to do a "search" for acoustic guitar mic techniques" and / or check out the musicplayer guitar forum.

 

Let me know how it goes.

 

 

Phil O'Keefe

Sound Sanctuary Recording

Riverside CA

http://members.aol.com/ssanctuary/index.html

email: pokeefe777@msn.com

[Nickie]

Thanks for the advice, but I'm still a bit baffaled on "how to test phase cansolation". Also if I want to record a mono track, how do I test that? Or if I want to try the sterio tack aproach, how should I pan those 4 tracks for a nice "double sterio guitar sound" if thats even advisable?

[Anderton]

I record acoustic guitars in mono, and add any stereo effects through processing during the mixdown stage.

 

To test for phase cancellation when using two mics:

 

1. Turn Mic 1 up and turn the Mic 2 all the way down (it doesn't matter which one you call Mic 1 or Mic 2, this is just an arbitrary labelling).

2. Slowly increase Mic 2's level.

3. If at some point the level DECREASES as you turn up the level, or the sound gets thinner, the mic has a phase issue. The level should always increase as you turn up level.

 

You can fix the phase problem by flipping the channel's phase switch. But run the test again, because there might be phase issues at a different frequency.

 

If all else fails, try different mic placement. Also note that you will almost invariably run into phase issues if you record direct from an amp and also via a mic, because the miked sound will be delayed compared to the direct one. The best option is to delay the direct sound slightly so that both signals "line up." There's an article on this site about this if you need to know more.

[Lee Flier]

Actually, phase switching is kinda obsolete if you have a DAW; you don't really need it. If you have a phase issue just slide one track around in relation to the other until they are either perfectly lined up, or it sounds fatter instead of thinner. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif

 

--Lee

[Ethan Winer]

Lee,

 

> Actually, phase switching is kinda obsolete if you have a DAW ... If you have a phase issue just slide one track around ... <

 

If you truly have a polarity problem, you cannot fix it with time delays. The amount of time equal to 180 degrees for one frequency is not the same as for other frequencies. So if, for example, you are miking a snare drum on top and on bottom, you must reverse the polarity of one of the mikes.

 

--Ethan

[Nickie]

To go even to greater detail, those adaptors that came with my 2 C-1000's (Hyper- something) when should I use them? And why?

[Hippie]

Craig wrote:

You can fix the phase problem by flipping the channel's phase switch...

 

My board (Mackie 24-8) does not have a phase switch, can I

re-pin an XLR mic cable with the positive & negative flip-flopped? (pins 2 & 3, I believe?), and if this is possible, what impact will this have on a mic that is being powered by the boards internal phantom power?

 

-Hippie

[ricknbokker]

Yo Hippie!! Excellent question. I'd like to know about the phantom power too. Hopefully, we'll get an answer.

 

As far as recording acoustic guitar, I stand in front of a large mirror at a 45* angle, then point my trusty Radio Shack condenser at the mirror, about 4-5" away. Really lights up the Taylor. As far as stereo, I'm w/Craig. I do it later, in processing, if I do it at all.

 

Good luck!

Steve

[Lee Flier]

Originally posted by Ethan Winer:

Lee,

If you truly have a polarity problem, you cannot fix it with time delays. The amount of time equal to 180 degrees for one frequency is not the same as for other frequencies. So if, for example, you are miking a snare drum on top and on bottom, you must reverse the polarity of one of the mikes.

 

Ethan,

 

I disagree. It's true that if you have a polarity (as in wiring) problem, you need to use the switch. However, polarity and phase aren't the same thing. To assume that a bottom snare drum mic that is 180 degrees out of polarity with a top snare drum mic is going to sound better than one that is, say 110 degrees out in some frequencies, is hit or miss. It might or might not sound better.

 

We've had a couple of discussions on this in George's forum. Please read these threads and let us know what you think!

 

http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/000806.html

http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/000466.html

 

--Lee

[Pro Jules]

I get the sound up un equed, but usualy a tad compressed then walk in the live area while the person is playing along to the track, & put on some cans myself - I listen & move the mic round so that the gtr sounds 'right' for the track (to me) in the cans... usualy back in the control room that sounds fine. I get the player to remember where & how they were in relation to the mic.. in case they move back to a wierd position after tuneing or leaving the room for a while..

 

I find compression absolutly KEY to getting a good sound a variable attack & release compressor is v f handy. I tend to study the attack and release on a getto blaster to make sure I am getting the radio friendy sound i like, & that no parts are too 'dissapearing' OR 'crushed' either..

 

Course, if your STARTING a track unacompanied and SELF recording, gently move the mic or yourself & the guitar around till you get the sound in the cans you like.

 

If I am doing an acc gtr track, (I'm pretty good at strumming) I set a mic up then thrash around in the seat like there are red ants in my pants till I find the spot I like the sound of. Move around!

 

Never really got on with 2 mic's personaly although I do like using a purpouse built stereo mic from time to time...

 

http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif

 

Jules

 

TOP tip, headphones with a 1/4' stereo jack, placed round the body (over the top - one ear on the front one ear on the back) makes an excelent feed to an electronic tuner, (usualy WAY better than trying to use the tiny mic tuners have built in ) the headphones sort of 'becomes a mic'. try it.

 

 

This message has been edited by Julian standen on 04-22-2001 at 10:00 PM

[fantasticsound]

My board (Mackie 24-8) does not have a phase switch, can I

re-pin an XLR mic cable with the positive & negative flip-flopped? (pins 2 & 3, I believe?), and if this is possible, what impact will this have on a mic that is being powered by the boards internal phantom power?

 

In my experience this works perfectly. I'm not an engineer, I'm a mixer, so I have to leave the final word on phantom to Craig. (Having said that http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif If I understand it correctly, phantom power runs as equal, positive, DC voltage on hot and cold (ie. +24v on each lead to yield +48v total), so reversing them should have no effect on the power to the mic. (Please tell me if I'm full of it, Craig. lol)

 

Neil

 

This message has been edited by fantasticsound on 04-23-2001 at 12:25 AM

[Nickie]

OK, back to the Rode. Should it be in omni mode? My understanding of this is that it would pick up the room more. Also if I'm compressing, does the attack time have anything to do with the temo? Is there a formula for this?

[miroslav]

Originally posted by Nickie:

...Should it be in omni mode?...does the attack time have anything to do with the tempo?...Is there a formula for this?

 

Apart from correcting reversed polarity issues...the rest...phase, omni, attack time, formulas...etc.,...not real critical, and no one way to do it.

 

Put the mic(s) up, hit record, and then just play the guitar.

 

Then stop and make some adjustments (mics, comp...etc.) and repeat the process, but throw it on a DIFFERENT track.

 

Do this a few times and keep some notes on what you did for each take.

 

After you try several different settings, you can put the guitar down, relax, play them all back one at a time and just...LISTEN.

 

Use the one you like the most!

 

This is a great learning process that could also yield some surprising results.

 

Don't get too hung up on just formulas, "correct" mic placement...etc.

[Nickie]

Thanks Slav thats the best advise I've got all morning. By the way, What are all you guys doing up so early, DON'T YOU SLEEP!!!

[miroslav]

Originally posted by Nickie:

Thanks Slav thats the best advise I've got all morning. By the way, What are all you guys doing up so early, DON'T YOU SLEEP!!!

 

Don't let the time stamps fool you...some of these folks never went to bed from the day before!!!

 

Me...I'm an early riser.

I used to do the other shift - start at 4pm in the afternoon, go 'til 3-4am the next morning, sleep 'til noon and then do it all over again.

 

Now the bio-rhythms can get all screwed up.

The younger boys and girls can get away with a lot of time shift/delay.

But as you get older, you have to stay more in-phase (regardless of your personal polarity) otherwise serious compression (>10-1) will start to set in and your threshhold drops off to -40...basically...you will get SLAMMED if you don't get your proper ZZZZZZs.

[Nickie]

Ha! Ha! You sound like you need a vacation from all this.

[KenElevenShadows]

quote:

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by Nickie:

...Should it be in omni mode?...does the attack time have anything to do with the tempo?...Is there a formula for this?

------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

No formulas. Formulas are Evil.

 

Omni vs. cardioid -- it's your choice. What sounds better? I've used both. If you use omni, it sure works a lot better if you have a decent-sounding room. What kind of sound are you after? No one can answer this for you -- it depends on what sounds you are going for.

 

Attack: Use your ear. This also depend on what sound you are going after, but really, the best thing to do is to see how much of the initial attack you want. Do you like having the first part of the picked string sound or the strum spiking, kinda poking through before the compressor activates? Or do you like having the compressor clamp down a little earlier? Again, it really depends on the sound.

 

There is no formula. Formulas are Evil.

 

------------------

Ken/Eleven Shadows/d i t h er/nectar

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

music*travel photos*tibet*lots of stuff

"Sangsara" "Irian Jaya" & d i t h er CDs available!

http://www.elevenshadows.com

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Chip McDonald]

Originally posted by Nickie:

Thanks Slav thats the best advise I've got all morning. By the way, What are all you guys doing up so early, DON'T YOU SLEEP!!!

 

Curious topic.

 

I basically don't sleep.

 

To me, "good sleep" means about 3-4 hours. Last week, due to various crap that interfered with "life in general", I slept maybe 10 hours the whole week - *I'm not kidding*.

 

My brain doesn't shut off. I go to bed around 3:00 a.m. (try to). I lay there in the dark thinking until about sun up. I'm awake as my room mates get up and go to work - between 6:00 to about 9:00. My alarm goes off at 10:00; sometimes I get wild and stay in bed until 11:00.

 

Hmm. Since I've moved here I'm really only sleeping about an hour or so a night actually.

 

The problem is, I get deathly sleepy around 8:00 pm. That's wayyyyy too inconvenient, too much stuff to do. I get mildly sleepy around 5 pm as well, but that's in the middle of work.

 

I've tried falling asleep at 5:00 pm on sundays. I sleep really hard for about an hour, wake up feeling good, wide awake... and then don't get sleepy until about 6-7 am.

 

When I've tried the 8 pm "window", same thing - except then I don't sleep at night at all.

 

I've been sort of like this since I was a kid, but as I get older I can tell it's wearing me down, I'm not as productive - I get tired. But everytime I try to arrange things so I can just go to bed, something happens - life in purgatory I guess.

 

No, I haven't tried Ambien or Sonata; sort of scared of such things. As it is I'm starting to use caffeine to make myself more awake during the day, which makes me sleep "harder" at night (when I do sleep) - but I can't seem to find the time in my schedule to make up for lost sleep.

 

Oh well. Sleep is for wimps. I'm working on food as well, since it's expensive, and then I'll try to eliminate having to breathe.

 

OK, let's see, I'm wide awake, but too tired to keep working on this stupid mix, so I'll go to bed now, early (only 12:30!) and see what happens...

 

http://www.mp3.com/chipmcdonald

[Tedster]

Chip sez:

 

>>>Oh well. Sleep is for wimps. I'm working on food as well, since it's expensive, and then I'll try to eliminate having to breathe.

 

"Sleep is for wimps" is the official National Weather Service motto. Yep, I'm sitting here on a mid shift...trying to keep the world's airways safe...and posting on forums during slow times.

[Chip McDonald]

Originally posted by Tedster:

"Sleep is for wimps" is the official National Weather Service motto. Yep, I'm sitting here on a mid shift...trying to keep the world's airways safe...and posting on forums during slow times.

 

Hmmm.... Almost 8:30 a.m., and I have to "get up" for work in about 2 hours. Should I go to bed?

 

Now it's almost 2 a.m. the following morning and I've yet to find a chance to sleep. .... Oh well.

 

 

http://www.mp3.com/chipmcdonald

 

This message has been edited by Chip McDonald on 04-29-2001 at 01:48 AM

[musicman1ovation.net]

Originally posted by Hippie:

Craig wrote:

My board (Mackie 24-8) does not have a phase switch, can I

re-pin an XLR mic cable with the positive & negative flip-flopped? (pins 2 & 3, I believe?), and if this is possible, what impact will this have on a mic that is being powered by the boards internal phantom power?

 

-Hippie

 

I have the same board, and I am wondering if anyone has modified the board with mini toggles to reverse phase? I suppose that if one has that done it is fairly expensive. I really do love the Mackie 8-bus mixers. It's like an SSL compared to what I had before. I like the sound, the feel, and so far I am preferring it to getting a digital board because I like the idea of signals passing through those analog circuits if they are clean enough. Still... I have always wondered why the Mackie 8-bus mixers don't include channel phase reverse switches.

 

Originally posted by Chip McDonald:

I basically don't sleep.

 

To me, "good sleep" means about 3-4 hours. Last week, due to various crap that interfered with "life in general", I slept maybe 10 hours the whole week - *I'm not kidding*. [EDITED] Since I've moved here I'm really only sleeping about an hour or so a night actually. [EDITED] I've been sort of like this since I was a kid, but as I get older I can tell it's wearing me down, I'm not as productive - I get tired. But every time I try to arrange things so I can just go to bed, something happens - life in purgatory I guess.

 

Actually, several people chimed in on the sleep thing. I can utterly relate. I once had a project (16 years ago, think it would kill me now) where I practically didn't sleep for two weeks. At most, I was laying down for an hour, maybe two, in every 24 - 36 hour period. Although that was unique, my general pattern is much as you have described. I've "done" caffeine to "help", and tried various things to get some pattern happening. As I get older, even though I may get interested in a project, I find myself believing the sleep should be more of a priority, because the side-effect to this "purgatory", as you put it, is that when I do the thing I'm staying awake for, my efficiency level is down it takes longer than it should, because I'll find myself nodding off as I sit at the workstation.

 

Aside from the creative personality syndrome that might be fueling this for all us "non-wimps" in the forum, I also have some physical issues, and it is quite possible I may have some form of sleep apnea. Sleep apnea has a number of causes and symptoms, and huge numbers of people have treatable chronic sleep problems and don't know it.

 

I have a couple of friends who share some of these traits... the main one being sleep problems. They have both 'fessed up to their doctors, and both spent a night or so under supervision in sleep clinics. One had sleep apnea, the other some other diagnosis I don't recall and couldn't spell if I did. But both of them are now sleeping better than they ever remember sleeping for their whole lives!

 

This is the kind of thing people put up with for years, making jokes, thinking it's just the way it is, and figuring that seeking medical help would be a waste of time and money. If the condition is chronic (medicine term meaning "long-lasting and recurrent or characterized by long suffering") the chances of getting help are great. I expect that one thing that keeps creative types from looking into it is not wanting to have some sort of "lights out" thing keeping us from creative rolls. But I think this is beyond that, and that any solution offered through a sleep clinic would take into consideration the work patterns and general lifestyle of the person(s) needing a better night's sleep.

 

I am planning to look into this in a couple of months' time, and I hope that any of us that might be helped will do the same. When I am doing the music stuff, I'd like to be refreshed in body and mind, and not merely driven. Meanwhile, I hope that we'll all listen to our bodies and occasionally, when possible, just grab those sleepy periods no matter what we must forego. All investments in health pay back severalfold in creative pursuits and life. (Note: I found two- through ten-, hundred-, thousand-, and even million- "folds" in the dictionary but alas, no "severalfold" for times like this when one wants to be accurate without exaggerating.) Interesting enough, Ben Folds Five! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif Best wishes to the lot of us.

 

 

This message has been edited by musicman1@ovation.net on 04-28-2001 at 01:51 PM