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FYI - Poverty Among Musicians?


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You may have noticed that I posted the press release without comment, because I didn't want to influence the course of the discussion.

 

I think Lee's most recent post nails it. To single out musicians as "gee it's too bad it's hard to make a living" seems awfully selfish given what's going on in the world at large. I think we mostly need to deal with injustices that already exist in the music world, and things would be better for all concerned: limit the amount of royalties that can be withheld against returns (often as high as 33%), give automatic reversion of copyright to the artist when an album goes out of print, expand the NARAS MusiCares concept, that sort of thing.

 

I wish MusicPlayer.com had a lobbyist in Washington........

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All you folks whose response is that 'these folks should get off their lazy asses and get a job" better fuckin' hope that those folks don't or your fucking jobs will be on the line. That uninformed bullshit pisses me off, learn some economics, read a little Bucky Fuller. It's no fucking wonder that corporate bullshit just keeps rollin along 'cause there's just so many twits willing to jump into the front lines to be cannon fodder. Hope all those folks, around the world, take your advice, and cut off the 85 % for the worlds resources which flow to the 12.5 % of the population here in North America. Maybe then you'll be willing to look at alternative economic strategies instead of raising the commie spector, I'm willing to bet your idea of all this stuff comes straight from some boogie man corporate media bullshit and you've never given a stray thought any real alternatives. Communism bad capitalism good I'll bet that's as far as your analysis goes. When you lose your job to one of those lazy asses that your boss can hire for a buck an hour cheaper than you can live on ,give me a call I'll see if I can round up a couch for you to sleep on. Shakin' my head and fearin' for the world, Logan
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Lee wrote..

 

>>I guess one thing that confuses us in this country is that while there are no rich factory workers, there are a few rich musicians.

 

Do I hear the strains of Mark Knopfler's "Money for Nothing" beginning here? As if everyone who picks up a guitar will make millions http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif.

 

How do some musicians who do nothing else afford food AND gear? Gear isn't cheap. Even cheap gear isn't cheap. I always wanted a day gig so I could afford the toys I wanted. I pull in a reasonable chunk of change at my day gig, and I STILL can't afford the gear I need, much less the gear I want.

 

Like Lee says, (wasn't it Fee Waybill, too?) "Whaddya want from life?"

 

Didn't I hear that Van Gogh died penniless...destitute...and it wasn't until years after his death that his work became so celebrated?

 

Oh, and Craig, if we pitch in and buy you a nice suit, will you go to D.C. for us all? (I only say that as most musicians I know would rather buy gear than suits...) http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gifhttp://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gifhttp://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

"Cisco Kid, was a friend of mine"
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Craig, absolutely we need to just do what we can to make things better in the existing industry!

 

And a musicplayer.com lobbyist is a great idea... I'd sign up for the job but you couldn't pay me enough to live in Washington!

 

--Lee

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Lee, I'm with you a hundred percent on the drag of working on the wrong gigs, depending on loser players, etc. Better to do something entirely different for 40 hours a week and decicate the other 128 hours a week to the music you WANT to produce. Working in another industry can have the added benefit of expanding your list of contacts. I've met a lot of musicians in the computer world - it's almost a parallel universe to the music scene.

 

I can't agree on the artistic temperament concept, though. I could easily spend 20 hours a day making music, working day and night, neglecting to sleep, eat, bathe, or exercise, forgetting to check the mail or pay the bills. It would be VERY easy to fall into that pattern, and I have on occasion. But I've learned three important lessons:

 

(1) The world is not very forgiving when you operate in this mode.

(2) Your health, relationships, and finances deteriorate quickly when your life has no structure.

(3) I do BETTER WORK when I have to work within a schedule.

 

Artistic temperament is no excuse for being a lazy slob.

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Dan, I agree with you 100% as far as lessons learned... BUT... the folks I'm thinking of would absolutely not be CAPABLE of adding more "structure" to their lives even if they wanted to. Yes the world is unforgiving of that sort of thing. Yes it messes up your life. But I DON'T label these particular people "lazy slobs". They aren't lazy - as I said they work their butts off writing, touring and recording. And people who know them really love what they do. But, while you or I may have the type of personality that can do both, these people don't. Really, can you picture Keith Moon with a day job? Or John Lennon? Or Keith Richards? Mick Jagger or Roger Daltrey or even Paul McCartney, sure. But those other guys, no way. Now picture if they were still who they were but they'd never made much money. I know several people like that. And I love them dearly and would hate to think they'll ever have to starve. Yet, I fear for them when they get older.

 

It's a shame that we have a society that is so unforgiving of true eccentrics. If you don't have a certain type of personality that is capable of conforming to a certain structure, you're fucked. You end up homeless or being labeled mentally ill, or nowadays when you're a kid they label it "attention deficit disorder" and put you on Ritalin. Whatever contributions you may be able to make to society, are simply ignored if you can't earn money.

 

Of course somebody would probably say that if they'd put Keith Moon on Ritalin when he was a kid he'd probably be alive today and be "happier and healthier". I'll leave you to ponder whether it is really making you "happy and healthy" to repress your true nature. Can't answer that one.

 

--Lee

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Originally posted by Lee Flier:

Really, can you picture Keith Moon with a day job? Or John Lennon? Or Keith Richards?

 

Keith Moon - Team mascot or beta tester for a toy company.

 

John Lennon - Film critic or AM radio talk show host.

 

Keith Richards - Character actor or sleep depravation test subject.

 

There are eccentric people in all fields, in all walks of life. They can either take care of themselves, or they can't. If not, they have to find a support structure (family, management, mission). If they can't do that, they'll probably become homeless. If they can't survive on the streets, they'll die.

 

This fate can befall accountants, housewives, factory workers, plumbers, shopkeepers, actors, truck drivers, teachers, fishermen, managers, soldiers, limo drivers - every kind of person you can imagine. Why do MUSICIANS deserve something special that the rest of them don't get? I think that society in general needs to address the issue of the person who can't take care of him/herself. It's a world wide problem, and there are no easy answers. But it's not going to be solved by throwing dollars at wacky musicians, even if some of them happen to be charming.

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>>This fate can befall accountants, housewives, factory workers, plumbers, shopkeepers, actors, truck drivers, teachers, fishermen, managers, soldiers, limo drivers - every kind of person you can imagine. Why do MUSICIANS deserve something special that the rest of them don't get? <<

 

I'm not saying they do. I agree it's a culture-wide problem: we don't take care of people who don't fit in certain boxes. This post just happened to be in the context of musicians because this is a music forum. And musicians are probably more apt to understand the needs of other musicians than anybody else. Musicians may not be able to solve the world's problems but at least maybe we can help solve some of our own.

 

--Lee

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That's a funny response coming from you, Dan, considering you just gave away a bunch of gear to musicians who don't have much money. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

 

I have the exact opposite approach (and I guess in reality you do too, contrary to what you say http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif): It's easy to just write a check and let someone else worry about it. Not that it's not good to donate to charities you believe in, but it's more work to find individuals whom you feel you can help and take a more hands-on approach. That takes getting involved in your community, whether it's your neighborhood, or the "community" of musicians like what we have here.

 

But you already know that, 'cause you just did it... so I'm still scratching my head a little... http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/confused.gif

 

--Lee

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>>Keith Richards - Character actor or sleep depravation test subject.<<

 

He was originally cast to play the part of "Kramer" in Seinfeld, but test audiences couldn't understand what he said.

 

Just kidding http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif

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LOL Craig... reminds me of that SNL sketch where I think it was Mike Myers doing Bob Dylan in an interview and no one could understand a word he said. So the interviewer said "We need an interpreter" and out comes Dana Carvey as Tom Petty! Only of course, no one can understand anything HE says either... so the two of them just end up talking unintelligibly through their noses for the rest of the sketch...

 

--Lee

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I think that every one of us players/recordists who has worked a crummy job to make a living, has little sympathy for those musicians who cannot, or will not work a crummy job to make a living. "I drove cab, I shoveled s__t, why can't they?"

 

Music is cheap in our society; to make a living with it, you must have extraordinary music, people skills, business skills, or (preferably) all three.

 

I would submit that those who don't earn a living at music - I include myself here - serve themselves and humanity better by selecting another trade at which they CAN earn a living. It's a lot easier to find a good guitarist in my town than a good plumber...

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Sorry to appear so perplexing, Lee, but I think that you're comparing apples with oranges. The people who will benefit from my gear giveaway are not starving. I could have sold the stuff on Ebay and sent the proceeds to the Salvation Army (one of the most efficient and well-run of all charities), and that would have helped some poor people. But I already give money to the SA and other charities.

 

By giving the gear directly to musicians who, in my estimation, can really use it, I'm creating a very efficient transaction. No middlemen, no haggling. So a piece of gear that might have netted me a hundred bucks may help someone else to earn thousands. If they so choose, they can donate a small percentage of those earnings to a worthwhile charity. Even if they don't, they're going to make music that's worth more than the paltry hundred bucks that I could have gotten on Ebay. All in all, by giving intelligently, I am potentially giving more to everyone.

 

This does not replace my charitible contributions. Those contributions help a completely different area of society, maybe even a few whack musicians who are too incompetent to get a job washing dishes or mopping floors.

 

But I'm not going to support some well meaning but poorly conceived musician charity. To a large extent, people rise to the level of expectation. I support welfare programs for those who truly need them, but not the application of lots of new ones that give people the idea that they don't have to work anymore. People do what they have to do to survive. When they get the idea that they can make the rent without working, some will stop even looking for work. What's wrong with the social support systems that are already in place, the ones our tax dollars pay for already? Social security. MediCare. Aid to families with dependent children. We're already paying for these programs. Do we need more?

 

In addition, I have a big problem with the administration of this effort. Is it going to be lean and mean and sensible like the Salvation Army? Is it going to be as effective as the Red Cross or C.A.R.E.? Highly unlikely. It takes a lot of experience and discipline and know how to manage an effective charity. I'm not doubting that these folks are well meaning and have good ideas, but they can't compete with these established organizations.

 

It's a free country. People can send money to whomever they choose. They can send it to TV evangilists or the Psychic Friends Network, if they think that's going to help the poor. But I'm going to send MY dollars to charities with a track record - and encourage others to follow suit - in an effort to maximize the impact of those donations.

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Music is cheap in our society; to make a living with it, you must have extraordinary music, people skills, business skills, or (preferably) all three.

 

You don't need to have the first, but the other two are invaluable to make MONEY in this industry. If a living is what you want, I suggest concentrating on corporate and other private parties. The pay is great and you play almost 100% covers. Easy money. And there's a lot more to go around than there is selling your own music, by the odds.

 

Neil

It's easiest to find me on Facebook. Neil Bergman

 

Soundclick

fntstcsnd

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Originally posted by Anderton:

You may have noticed that I posted the press release without comment, because I didn't want to influence the course of the discussion.

 

I think Lee's most recent post nails it. To single out musicians as "gee it's too bad it's hard to make a living" seems awfully selfish given what's going on in the world at large. I think we mostly need to deal with injustices that already exist in the music world, and things would be better for all concerned: limit the amount of royalties that can be withheld against returns (often as high as 33%), give automatic reversion of copyright to the artist when an album goes out of print, expand the NARAS MusiCares concept, that sort of thing.

 

I wish MusicPlayer.com had a lobbyist in Washington........

 

 

I'd agree with all of this Craig, and I'd agree with Lee's comments about people who work their tails off and need assistance in retirement or if they're sick.

 

The difference is that these are inequities that need to be addressed, as opposed to people who are just unwilling to work hard towards a goal - even if that means doing some unpleasant things in order to acheive their goals.

 

 

Phil O'Keefe

Sound Sanctuary Recording

Riverside CA

http://members.aol.com/ssanctuary/index.html

pokeefe777@msn.com

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Does it really make sense for ANYONE not to be able to afford healthcare? I may or may not be going against the grain here... but that's fucking absurd. Why shouldn't an individual be able to afford his/her own? That alone would throw a lot more musicians back behind their instruments.

 

It all comes down to money. It seems that's all anyone cares about anymore. And that's most strongly evidenced by the way this society handles the care of its citizens. I had an asthma attack in Paris once - after a trip to the hospital, three inhalers, and a bottle of pills, I paid about 100 francs (approx. 20 USD I think). When I tell this story, people are surprised, as if the country has some kinda special privileges to its citizens and visitors. I think that's crap - in a developed society, affordable health care should be a RIGHT. But it is not. It's only for those who have money.

 

In short, this whole bullshit corporate society is tailoring itself to the needs of those who already have.

 

Jimmy

 

This message has been edited by Jimmy Foster on 04-20-2001 at 07:13 AM

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Musicians settle for less because they are "Artists" and have heard there is some possible benefit from "starving". It is bullshit. I play covers and have gone from bars to corporate clients. When I switch to originals I will charge no less. I am a single parent who plays music for a living. All you jerks who play all night long for beer - screw you - I'm better than you and I don't drink when I perform, so go home and practice. You know what's funny? I'm not even that great of a musician. But I know a lot of songs and I know how to handle a crowd. (even a small one ( -: ). Musicians are so bad at negociating(do actors take a draw agaijnst the earnings of a movie?????). I can't believe this whole thread.

 

Just run the music like a regular business on a regular schedule and you'll get regular results. What a Surprise!!!!!!!!!!

 

The record companies are jerks only because the musicians let them get away with it. I know, you probably don't think that this is true.

 

It's a very sore point with me, and I almost don't know where to start.

 

Take Care

 

Bob

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Hi,

 

I have strong views about what is being said on this column.

Like Lee, I'm working daytime as a computer programmer.

Like Craig, I write articles for magazines and web sites.

I do this because I want to be able to play and record my own music. This is something I could not do if I had insisted on being a musician as I haven't yet been able to gather enough commercial interest in my original music.

Does this piss me off? No it doesn't! What really makes me mad is that people in Sweden pay between 30% and 65% tax on that income so we can support our social welfare system that so many people abuse.

 

Bad side of system:

I know many musicians who consider themselves "musicians only" and society own it to them to support them if there aren't enough gigs to support them. They say they are so important to our culture that the government should consider themselves happy to support their musical efforts (that very few want to hear, much less pay for) as society would be much poorer without them. The result is that every day these "musicians" don't have a gig they can collect unemployment benefits (i.e. money). Their preferred modus operandi is to get the payment for their gigs "off the books" so they can get the gig money and the unemplyment money. I think this sucks big time! These musicians could very well go out and get a job like I have done. It's not like they have to work at MacDonald's either. They can fairly easily get substitute teaching jobs at government sponsored music schools (I'm happy my tax money goes to that) or as substitute music teachers at the ordinary schools. One person told me I couldn't be bothered with that as it would infringe on his time for parcticing and writing his music. Knowing him the way I do I can also say it would also seriuosly force him out of bed before 10 AM and if would also keep him from attending all those late nights he spends with his "musician" friends complaining that there aren't enough musically savvy listeners who understand their music enough to give them million dollar sales and a life of leisure (like they don't already have that). I think these lazybones should first get a life and then a job.

 

Good side of system:

I just hurt my knee pretty badly and am now negotiating my way around on crutches. After having spent a visit to the general practitioner, a visit to the hospital for x-rays and a visit to the knee specialist and the orthopedic's office I have spent SEK 200 which equals USD 20. This is quite alright. For every visit after these I have to spend another USD 20. If I have to visit any health care unit which sets me back more than a total of USD 150 for any given 12 month period the welfare system takes care every cent over USD 150 no matter what your income. This is indeed very good.

 

If people are laid off from work they get 300 days of unemployment benefits.

 

If a woman has a troublesome pregnancy she is entiteld to stay home whit 90% of her income. When the baby is born she is guaranteed 360 days of maternety leave with 90% of her income. The first ten days after the baby and mother returns from the hopital after birth (hospital visit free, small charge for own phone at bed) the father has the right to stay home with the mother and the baby with 90% of income.

 

When the kids get older they are entitled (and required) to attend school from age 6 to age 15 which amounts to 10 years of school at no additional charge to the parents. After that they can attend Gymnasium (2-4 years) which I suppose can be compared to a mix of high school and junior college. This is also free of charge (some schools charge for some bboks and a small charge for food). If you want to get a university degree you can attend University. Free of charge for tuition but you pay for books and you cost of living. I got my Master of Music at The Royal Conservatory that way.

 

I gladly pay my tax considering the priviledges we have as citizens of this country. Young and old. The priviledges are unfortunately being degraded as people are getting older (my grandmother is 102) and people are abusing the system. Thus there isn't money enough to keep the system running. I would gladly keep paying taxes if everybody also did. Some evade taxes and some abuse the system but I still think that in a affluent society (the US as well as Sweden) has an obligation to take care of it's citizens. Our system definitely has its faults but I still think its worthwhile.

 

Sorry for ranting but I needed to blow some steam.

 

Mats N

(a not very political swede)

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I know musicians in Virginia Beach who exist on very little cash flow.....and the reason is they refuse to do anything else not related to the music biz. That's noble, but silly actually. Unless you are sitting on a hit song that's getting airplay nationwide or worldwide and fixin to start banking some. If you're in a four piece and get $1000 a gig, pay your soundman, pay your agent, pay your website host, etc...you end up with $200 for a nights work. That ain't bad if you're playing three nights a week, every week. You can survive on that if you are an adult and living independently. There are those who are 30 still living with Mom doing the club scene, still have the 18 year old girlfriends, not a care in the world and absolutely no preparation for later life. I feel lucky to have the abilities I have that allow me to make a decent living, and still play music every weekend......it helps fund all the guitars, amps, strings, recording stuff, etc. The reason I work my day job has nothing to do with my music biz. It has to do with providing my kids college tuition, a mortgage payment, decent vehicles, mad money, and a comfortable retirement when those Christmas shopping days come nearer to a close. If I could make that kind of dough doing music, I would, but alas.....I can't. Most of us can't. More power to those who can. So I say to all those bitching about starving to death......learn a trade, go to college, use those people skills you have for working up an audience to get your ass in the front door of your future employer, and be frugal with your money and material possessions. I don't speak for anybody but myself, but existing is not enough for me......I have to live it.
Down like a dollar comin up against a yen, doin pretty good for the shape I'm in
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What it really boils down to is PRIORITIES. And, I think that everyone's definition of survival is pretty different. For those on this board with a family ( kids ), your priorities are and should be very different from mine ( single, no kids ).

I can "starve". And if you want to just work in music, I still believe it's possible. You won't be buying a house, driving a new car or buying new gear, but you'll be doing it. It's a trade-off. Like anything else, it all comes down to one question: How much are you willing to sacrifice?

 

I've spent 7 years playing in an original band. Always original. We didn't start out as a cover band, we've never been a cover band. Surprise, we don't make very much money. In fact, we're just now breaking even. So, we all have day jobs. That's just how it works. 4 out of 5 of us are married, 2 have kids. But we're still doing it and I don't think we have any expectations about being rock stars. Again, what do you want out of it???

 

Being practical SUCKS. Being responsible sucks. But I think there's a balance in there, somewhere.

 

If you REALLY want it, I still think you can survive on music and not have to sell your soul. Your standard of living ( financially, not emotionally ) is gonna be pretty damn low for quite a long time, but, again, it's all about sacrifice.

 

I have a sticker on my computer at work that says:

"You are not what you own".

 

It keeps me in line.

 

Michael

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>>I had an asthma attack in Paris once - after a trip to the hospital, three inhalers, and a bottle of pills, I paid about 100 francs (approx. 20 USD I think). When I tell this story, people are surprised, as if the country has some kinda special privileges to its citizens and visitors. I think that's crap - in a developed society, affordable health care should be a RIGHT. But it is not. It's only for those who have money. <<

 

I have a friend who almost died while in Germany. He kept refusing to go to the hospital. His German friends couldn't figure out why he was so stubborn about this, maybe they figured he was scared of doctors...then he finally said that he couldn't afford to go to the hospital. His friends were puzzled, they explained that doctors don't let you die in Germany, whether or not you have money. They fixed him up, I think it cost around $100 or so for some pretty intensive stuff.

 

I don't think socialized medicine is necessarily the answer, I'm much more conspiratorial about the whole thing: keeping people sick is a MAJOR profit center for a lot of industries. As long as they make a fortune keeping people on drugs, there's little incentive to change it. For example, I was watching a 60 minutes show on TV where they were talking about the comeback of electro-shock therapy to treat depression. There was a woman who described how she had tried all the antidepressants, psychotherapy, etc. etc. etc. and now she was doing electro-shock. She was a cash cow for the medical establishment! Yet she never mentioned whether anyone had checked her thyroid, which if imbalanced, can cause major depression - and costs about $8/month to fix. I'm not saying that's her problem, but the fact that nothing else helped indicates to me that she WASN'T depressed, it was something else.

 

I've seen people who cured their cancer (i.e., clean for over 15 years and counting) with proper diet, a decent lifestyle regimen, and vitamin C injections. Not only did it cost them far less than chemotherapy and extended hospital stays, IT WORKED. I'm not saying this would work for everyone, but the cookie-cutter approach to health is not working.

 

I know my life would be real different if I knew that if I was seriously ill, I wouldn't be faced with a choice of financial ruin or killing myself.

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Originally posted by Anderton:

I don't think socialized medicine is necessarily the answer, I'm much more conspiratorial about the whole thing: keeping people sick is a MAJOR profit center for a lot of industries.

 

AMEN, BROTHER! Insurance is big business. Pharmaceuticals is big business. Surgery is big business.

 

Think about the American diet. Meat is big business. Dairy is big business. Fast food is big business. Tobacco is big business. Alcohol is big business. Heart bypass surgery is a lot more profitable than consultations on proper diet and exercise.

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MUSICIANS RELEIF FUND

Rent Subsidy Application

 

NAME: ________________________________

 

REAL NAME: ________________________________

 

MANAGER: ________________________________

(Check here if manager no longer returns your calls) ___

 

ADDRESS: _____________________________________________

(A friend's place would be okay)

 

AMOUNT OF RENT DUE: _______________

 

INSTRUMENT: ____________________________

(If accordion, ukulele, or bassoon, skip to SIGNATURE, below)

 

DATE OF LAST PAYING GIG: ___________

(Check here if you've been out of work due to rehab) ___

 

OTHER SOURCES OF INCOME

Job (just in case): ________________________

Savings (merely a formality): ______________

Family: ____________________________________

(Check here is family is no longer willing to help) ____

 

MARKETABLE NON-MUSIC SKILLS (give details): __

 

HOUR YOU TYPICALLY WAKE UP IN THE AFTERNOON/EVENING: ______

 

LAST THREE JOBS LOST (do not write on back of form-we get the idea):

________________________________________

________________________________________

________________________________________

 

LIST ANY CONTROLLED SUBSTANCES YOU ABUSE REGULARLY

(Use another sheet if necessary.)

_________________________________________

_________________________________________

_________________________________________

 

SIGNATURE: ___________________________

DATE: ___________

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MUSICIANS RELEIF FUND

Rent Subsidy Application

NAME: ________________________________

 

REAL NAME: ________________________________

 

MANAGER: ________________________________

(Check here if manager no longer returns your calls) ___

 

ADDRESS: _____________________________________________

 

 

That last entry from the quote should read:

 

GIRLFRIEND: Y N

followed by: GIRLFRIEND'S ADDRESS: __________________________________

 

as we all know that a musician without a girlfriend is homeless.

 

Neil http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

 

 

This message has been edited by fantasticsound on 04-20-2001 at 09:50 PM

It's easiest to find me on Facebook. Neil Bergman

 

Soundclick

fntstcsnd

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I was faced with the "play music full time and starve", or "get a real job and eat" dilemma, 10 years ago. (a slight exaggeration). I chose to get a job. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/frown.gif I still play about 2 weekends a month, and I think the quality of the gigs has gone up, due to it not being a "grind" anymore.

-My daddy used to say to me, "even a dog has the sense to come in out of the rain."

It can be a sad day when your twenties are slipping away, and you find you are not the next Beatles. My point is: the Pop music industry is fickle, and not making the big time does not necessarily mean you have no talent. Try to have realistic goals. Something to ask yourself when getting offered a gig, 1. Will this gig get me anywhere in life?, will it bring a better gig next time around?, etc. Don't get caught up into the "Bar star trip", and you could possibly head off your own musician poverty.

 

-Hippie

In two days, it won't matter.
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