FYI - Poverty Among Musicians?

[Anderton]

I got the following email today, forwarded by Rock and Rap Confidential...

 

Date: 4/18/01 12:54:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time

From: Rockrap@aol.com

To: canderton@musicplayer.com

 

Musicians Are (Poor) People Too

 

[please forward to other musicians]

 

"I think our goal should be to take care of each and every one of our

citizens, no matter who they are or where they come from."--Steve Earle

 

We are Rock A Mole (rhymes with guacamole) Productions in Los Angeles. We

are artists, musicians, and writers. We are stepping to you to let you know

about something very important that is happening in our country.

 

Did you know that there is a large and growing movement to end poverty

led by the poor themselves? Did you know that musicians such as Bruce

Springsteen, Wyclef Jean, Jackson Browne, Tom Morello, Sara Hickman, Ice T,

Ani DiFranco, Steve Earle, and Wayne Kramer have aligned themselves with this

movement?

 

"I believe that the only people who are capable of leading a movement to

end poverty are poor people. You can't go begging with your cup, knocking on

the master's door and say, 'Please sir, may I have another portion?' That's

just not how it works. All progressive change has come from below."--Tom

Morello of Rage Against the Machine

 

Under the leadership of the Poor People's Economic Campaign for Human

Rights (PPEHRC), dozens of poor people's organizations have come together to

organize for what they know this wealthy country can provide: Food, housing,

medical care, and education. These organizations represent people of all

races and all ages, spanning the U.S. from the inner cities to the backwoods

of Appalachia to the fields of Florida.

 

"Oh yes, it has to come from the bottom up anyway, it has to come from

the bottom up."--Mahdi of Krown Ju-elz

 

The PPEHRC is in the process of waging a lawsuit before the

Inter-American Commission of the Organization of American States (OAS),

charging the United States government with violating the economic human

rights of its citizens-- the rights to food, housing, health care, and

education. All across the country, the PPEHRC is going door to door and

gathering the testimony of people who have been denied these rights.

 

Music has been a vital part of the battle to end poverty--it helps to

connect people up, to raise consciousness, to build morale, and to raise

money. And, of course, musicians are poor, too.

 

Paying the rent, struggling to find health care, getting a day job--all

of this impacts on the lives of musicians and on our ability to pursue our

creative visions. So it's only natural that the PPEHRC campaign should

include the testimony of musicians, so that the voices of musicians can be

combined with the testimony of other people who are struggling to survive.

 

Could you please answer the following three questions (at any length you

want) and send them to us so that we can make sure they become a part of the

PPEHRC campaign? Thanks, peace, and keep making music--

 

1. How many people do you know who've performed at a benefit for a musician

who was unable to pay his or her medical bills?

 

2. Have you or any other musicians you know ever had problems obtaining

health care?

 

3. Have you ever had a problem with finding a place to stay or paying the

rent?

 

Please include your name (band name, if any), address, and email address.

Thanks!

 

Rock A Mole Productions

P.O. Box 341305

Los Angeles, CA 90034

310-398-4477

rockrap@aol.com

 

For more information on the Poor People's Economic Human Rights Campaign,

contact:

 

Kensington Welfare Rights Union

Box 50678, Philadelphia PA 19132

215-203-1945 / www.kwru.org / kwru@libertynet.org

 

P.S. Rock A Mole Productions, in association with the Kensington Welfare

Rights Union, is producing The Ultimate Song, a film about music's role in

the struggle to end poverty. The film includes Wyclef Jean, Jackson Browne,

Wayne Kramer, Steve Earle, Sara Hickman, Tom Morello of Rage Against the

Machine, and Ice T. The film will be completed this summer and VHS copies

will be sent FREE to any musician who wants one. If you are a musician and

would like a copy, contact Rock A Mole at P.O. Box 341305, LA CA 90034 or at

rockrap@aol.com

 

"We have the resources to end poverty, the question is do we have the

will to end poverty? I really think that it takes throwing your lot in with

those that are impoverished."--Jackson Browne

[Chip McDonald]

Originally posted by Anderton:

1. How many people do you know who've performed at a benefit for a musician who was unable to pay his or her medical bills?

 

How many people performed *at* versus how many people performed *for*???

Every year there's benefits for local musicians - more and more often. I would guess every pro musician in my town has a few times at least...

 

2. Have you or any other musicians you know ever had problems obtaining

health care?

 

Is this a joke?

 

3. Have you ever had a problem with finding a place to stay or paying the rent?

 

Ah, I get it, this is supposed to be funny! Ha ha ha ha...

 

I'm not so bad off right now, I have a roof over my head so I can't complain. I know guys right now that are sleeping in their practice rooms or cars, who bath at truck stops or the Y. Once had a singer that slept in the park for a while. I know plenty of bands that live in shacks of houses, or in "band houses", 4+ people to a room - although that's more of

a phenomenon in Atlanta and Athens since there's a bigger scene than here in Augusta.

 

Hahahah, this is so funny!

 

Please include your name (band name, if any), address, and email address.

 

No real address at the time (hahahahah) the rest is listed.

 

"We have the resources to end poverty, the question is do we have the will to end poverty? I really think that it takes throwing your lot in with those that are impoverished."--Jackson Browne

 

I don't think Jackson is going to "throw his lot" out monetarily until *he* is impoverished...

 

 

All of the musicians listed, except maybe Morello, are morally bereft for participating in this "campaign". Traditionally the way musicians have exerted influence was to not complain from their limos and mansions about poverty or social unjust, BUT TO WRITE ABOUT IT IN THEIR MUSIC.

 

They're right, social change comes from the bottom up. But there's no way of motivating that change from a distance: the only way to impact it is to express solidarity of conviction lyrically. Make people ticked off! It's quite ironic in this time of King George I Rage Against the Machine breaks up - there's now no popular voice of decension in pop music, PERIOD. Which is totally laughable when one thinks of the social conscience expressed in the late 60's by the pop glitterati in general. There's nothing now.

 

http://www.mp3.com/chipmcdonald

[sbrock1san.rr.com]

"I think our goal should be to take care of each and every one of our

citizens, no matter who they are or where they come from."--Steve Earle

 

Steve Earle played on an album to support The West Memphis Three. They are three evil little punks who are sitting on death row, and/or doing life-sentences for brutely raping and murdering three innocent young boys. Looks like he's got another cause to support. Let's hope he's thought this one out better than the other.

[dansouth]

I saw something recently about a program to help out elderly jazz musicians who could no longer support themselves. I think this is a worthwhile cause. On the other hand, these folks can qualify for Social Security and MediCare. When my generation reaches retirement age, these programs will no longer exist.

 

That said...

 

> Paying the rent, struggling to find health care,

> getting a day job--all

> of this impacts on the lives of musicians and on

> our ability to pursue our

> creative visions. So it's only natural that the

> PPEHRC campaign should

> include the testimony of musicians, so that the

> voices of musicians can be

> combined with the testimony of other people who

> are struggling to survive.

 

I'm sorry, but unless they're disabled, in which case they TOO can qualify for MediCare and Social Security, these losers should GET OFF THEIR LAZY ASSES AND GET A FUCKING JOB. If your music gig isn't paying the bills, you have to find another gig to do it. That's life - sink or swim. If you're passionate enough about your music, you'll find a way to make it happen, even if you have to work 40, 50, 60, or 70 hours a week doing something else to support yourself. When did we get the idea that the world owes us a living? Life is a do or die proposition - literally.

 

 

> Did you know that there is a large and growing movement to end poverty

led by the poor themselves? Did you know that musicians such as Bruce

Springsteen, Wyclef Jean, Jackson Browne, Tom Morello, Sara Hickman, Ice T,

Ani DiFranco, Steve Earle, and Wayne Kramer have aligned themselves with this

movement?

 

I would like to tell Bruce, Jackson, Steve, Ani and the rest of them to take a combined flying fuck! The only musician whose creed I follow is Mr. Charlie Daniels, who said "I ain't askin' nobody for nothin' if I can't get it on my own." That's been my motto for more than half my life - thank you Charlie - and it's served me well.

 

No one is immune to being down and out. It can happen to me as easily as it can happen to anyone, and if it does, I'll have to get by the best I can while I pull myself back up. But that's a far cry from needing help with the rent because I'm a *musician*, i.e. someone too special to get their precious hands dirty.

 

I think I'll start a charity for giving a kick in the ass to people who desperately need to get off of theirs.

 

This message has been edited by dansouth@yahoo.com on 04-18-2001 at 03:50 PM

[wormhole]

Wipe out poverty? That's like wiping out old age. Can't be done without rewriting our economic foundation. A beautiful idea, a chicken in every pot and all, but the reality is that if there are no poor people there are no rich people and guess who pulls the strings?

Also lets not forget the the unemployment level is a major indicator of eecnomic stability so the existence of poor people is built into our society from the ground up.

[geoffk]

Why not try something new and see if it works? Also the idea that Social Security and so one will 'no longer be around' in X number of years is completly untrue. The numbers used to say that SS will be broke assume a very low rate of growth for the economy...lower than during the Depression.

What happened to musicians being open minded?

[KenElevenShadows]

Hey, we could try reverting to communism!!!

 

------------------

Ken/Eleven Shadows/d i t h er/nectar

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

music*travel photos*tibet*lots of stuff

"Sangsara" "Irian Jaya" & d i t h er CDs available!

http://www.elevenshadows.com

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[CraigLeyhFrameBand.com]

There will always be people in need, and I am always willing

to do my part to help anybody. But i agree with DanSouth that

too many try to take advantage and are just to lazy to get a

job. If your music project does not pay the bills, you need

to do something else also till the music thing starts doing

it. If there is a good reason why someone cannot work then

that is why we have Social Security. I just see too many

abusing the system and hurting the ones that need the help.

 

------------------

Thank you,

Craig S. Leyh

CraigLeyh@FrameBand.com

[strat0124]

wow......poverty stricken musicians????? Nobody ever heard of a day job? I could exist without working, but why????? I like having the cush of a home, a decent vehicle, and college tuition.

[Dylan]

They don't call us starving artists for nothing. Unless you have tons of money in your family you will probably have to work a day job until you can get your feet off the ground in this business. I'm working a day job, and although I don't love it, it pays the bills and still allows me to have fun with music. In about 9 months I hope to be able to do music full time. But until that time why should Uncle Sam have to pay my rent only cause I don't want to do anything but music? If this program is for getting poor people musical instruments, lessons, etc, then I'm all for it. But to just hand out cash to someone because A) they're poor and B) they just happen to be musicians is absurd. The fact is, is that doing music full time is an absolute blessing and not many of us are fortunate to do it and make a living at the same time. Getting to that point takes some serious risks and hard work, and if your not willing to put that in then you don't deserve a career in this biz in the fist place. Sorry to sound apathetic, but I have a hard time feeling sorry for musicians that turn down a day jobs only because they feel that they are too good for it.

 

-Dylan

[Tedster]

Yeah, I gotta go along with Dan and Strat on this one. I've got a buddy who does it by playing the club on weekends, teaching weeknight evenings, and spending the rest of his time with a paintbrush (not in the artistic sense) in his hand. I couldn't do it just on that. These people need to get a real job...whatever it takes to supplement what they get from playing.

 

That said...I will take the opportunity to bitch that clubs don't pay much more nowadays than they did 20 years ago. That's a crime. Thank God I'm in a position (thanks to my day gig) where I can tell the barowners (who are so f*&^ing full of themselves anyway) to take a flying leap if there's ANYTHING about the gig I don't like...AND...

 

MAYBE THAT'S THE ANSWER! If more musicians didn't abso-f&^%ing-lutely HAVE to have these gigs, maybe more of them would be able to tell the club owners to shove it, and perhaps, just perhaps, the club owners would have to shell out a little more. But, the gigs are the commodity, rather than the bands, and when that happens, the barowners have the ace up their sleeves, and that's why they can screw musicians. Simple economics...

[dansouth]

"We have the resources to end poverty, the question is do we have the

will to end poverty? I really think that it takes throwing your lot in with

those that are impoverished."--Jackson Browne

 

From which university did Mr. Browne receive his economics degree? Princeton? Stanford? U. Penn? I'd love to read his thesis. He can't even SPELL thesis.

 

Nearly half of the world's population goes to bed hungry at night. 3 billion improperly-nourished people. Thirty-five thousand children die from malnutrition and disease EVERY SINGLE DAY. The media made a really big deal about 34 Americans stranded in China. Multiply that number by a thousand, and that's how many kids are going to starve TODAY. And again TOMORROW. And EVERY DAY after that. Have you seen the pictures of 35,000 dead kids on the cover of Time or Newsweek? Did they mention it today on CNN? Of course not. Nobody wants to hear it. Read the rags, watch the tube, and you'll conclude that the Ramsey girl was the only kid who ever died needlessly.

 

Mr. Browne has no clue what poverty is, or he'd be giving 200 benefit concerts a year for C.A.R.E. or U.N.I.C.E.F. or The Salvation Army instead of paying lip service to this ludicrous, feel-good, help the poor musician who can't pay his rent sham. This whole stupid idea is a blight on the face of charity and an embarrassment to enlightened people everywhere.

[Tedster]

Preach it, preach it, Brutha Dan! Can ah get an A-MEN!?

 

 

A M M EEEEEEE N N !!

A A MM MM E NN N !!

AAAAA M M M M EEEEE N N N !!

A A M M M E N NN

A A M M EEEEEEE N N !!

[Tedster]

Well, that got all hosed...it was supposed to look like the letters spelling out an AMEN. Maybe I'd better have another Cap'n Morgan and Coke... http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

[Chip McDonald]

Originally posted by SteveRB:

Steve Earle played on an album to support The West Memphis Three. They are three evil little punks who are sitting on death row, and/or doing life-sentences for brutely raping and murdering three innocent young boys.

 

See, this is my point. I like what Steve Earle does, the one-microphone trip and rehearsing solo spot moves by instrument positioning, the whole deal...

 

HOWEVER...

 

 

He's really good at putting across the "purity" of the music he's playing.

 

Which brings me to this case. Ok, obviously Mr. Earle thinks he has an enlightened perspective on this case. I don't know. BUT - if he's that into it, WHY HASN'T HE WROTE A SONG ABOUT IT? Same goes for the rest. It kills me how no one writes about modern "blues" topics really, but yet does all of these things on the side. If you really feel about it as a writer, don't shroud it in pseudo-commercial phrases - make it clear an obvious what you're talking about, and don't worry if someone might have liked it if they thought it was about something else.

 

Which is why my hats off to Morello and crew. While I don't believe in all aspects of their politics (they were WAYYYY off the mark regarding Shining Path, and being driven in a limo to Lenin's tomb for instance.....).. but they were current, and quite clear about what they were about.

 

Earle does all of these tragic songs of ambiguous dispair, and does it well.... but I want to hear a modern Leadbelly, or Dylan, writing of modern times - not just when it's convenient at a charity event where Cher might show up and so forth...

 

Sorry, I'm in a bad mood.

 

 

http://www.mp3.com/chipmcdonald

[ricknbokker]

So Jackson Browne thinks all it takes is "throwing your lot with those that are impoverished"?

 

Sounds suspiciously like communism.

 

If it walks like a duck.... http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/frown.gif

[D. Gauss]

<

 

no, jackson browne thinks that throwing your fist in your girlfriend darryl hannah's face is the right way to solve a problem. ouch!

 

-d. gauss

[D. Gauss]

<>

 

it might be chuck berry. (especially if it has tax problems, mann act problems, and lots of nasty nikkid pics of women)

 

-d. gauss

[fantasticsound]

To Dansouth: (in my OWN brother's best Hulk Hogan impersonation)

 

AAAAMMMMEENNNNN BRRRROOOOTTTHHHEEERRRR!!!!!

 

This ought to tickle your funny bone too.

 

About a year ago someone taped a copy of a petition to get songwriter's royalties made tax exempt, to our sign-in computer at Mars in Nashville. For those of you ignorant of the Nashville scene, songwriters are next to godliness. (They recently forced CMT to do an about face on deleting the songwriter credits from music videos. {actually I applaud them for this})

 

The petition stated that most songwriters average something like $17,000 a year in earnings over their lifetime, because most of them hit it big once or twice, for a big lump sum, if they're lucky. My reaction was the same as Dan's to this thread.

 

There's a simple answer, STUPID! If you can't make a living as a songwriter... THEN DON'T BE A SONGWRITER TO MAKE A LIVING ANYMORE! DUH! Why should I subsidize a songwriter for being too lazy to get off their ass before noon, just to strum the guitar for a couple of hours. For that matter, I don't care if they get up at the crack of dawn and write until 10pm. If you don't have what it takes to be successful, you better find something else.

 

As someone working for 8 bucks an hour at Mars, I was insulted at reading this garbage.

 

Sorry if I'm ranting, but I don't have much money. I don't need someone who's made $100,000 at once telling me I should feel sorry for them, since they have little chance of continuing that income. I'd take the $100g's and thank anyone who bought the band's record personally, if I could. For allowing me to do what I love, even if I could only do it full time for a while.

 

Neil

[Guest]

I'm a bit surprised and saddened by the negative replies in this thread http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/frown.gif

[alphajerk]

does the earth really need those 3 billion people? the worms are hungry http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

 

a poor musician is a good musician...

[D. Gauss]

<>

 

a single, welfare mom with 3 kids who is in a catch-22 'cause she can't work 'cause there's no one to watch the kids, and minimum wage don't pay enough for day-care even if she did work, needs help. not a musician, unless there is a healthcare issue.

 

mcdonald's down the block is hiring for $6.25 an hour to start. that's over $50 a day and you get healthcare benefits. 50-60 bucks a night is about the same as what most musicians make on gigs in my area. yet most don't have gigs 5 nights a week. so if music ain't cutting it, work at mcdonld's, you're better off. as george clinton once said, "do fries go with that shake?"

 

-d. gauss

[trick fall]

The sad thing is even if you wanted to work six days a week as a musician you probably couldn't make a living. Here in NYC most bands will play a show for free just for the "exposure" meanwhile everyone else is getting paid. Most musicians day gigs are pretty underpaid as well.

[D. Gauss]

<>

 

most everyone in every job is underpaid. just ask them. if you want to be a "musician" then make music, but if you want to make money in the "music business" then you have to treat it like the business that it is and often that means being a whore and doing things you may not like. and like any other business you start-up, chances are good that you will lose money and or fail. if the whore part doesn't sit well because of "integrity", then flip burgers or whatever to pay the bills and make music just for yourself. who knows, maybe mikey d's needs a new jingle....

 

-d. gauss

[trick fall]

d gauss, I think you misunderstand me. I work a full time day job for the luxury of being in a band that doesn't have to pay the bills. That said, I still like to make money from my band. The better people I've dealt with in this town all ways find a way to pay you. I just don't like making a promoter/bar owner money and not getting my cut. Most musicians here in NYC seem to be very ignorant as far as getting paid and that makes it harder for me to get paid. Why book me when someone else is dumb enough to do it for free?

[Tedster]

'Scuse me if I quote myself...

 

>>>Thank God I'm in a position (thanks to my day gig) where I can tell the barowners (who are so f*&^ing full of themselves anyway) to take a flying leap if there's ANYTHING about the gig I don't like...AND...

 

That's exactly what I was talking about.

[Philip OKeefe]

Originally posted by trickfall@yahoo.com:

Why book me when someone else is dumb enough to do it for free?

 

Aaah, and there's the rub. You'll never get around that point. It seems to me that the same could be said about "unfair recording contracts" and "unfair publishing deals", etc. There's so many people who want to be successful musicians and many of them have little or no "real" knowledge of the industry, and so they'll take the gig for less - or free, or they'll sign the first "contract" presented to them without due consideration or proper legal counsel. You can't *entirely* blame the record companies, club owners, publishers, etc. because they are in business to make a profit. If they have a wide selection of prospects, and given two of those prospects with equal marketability and potential, but one of them willing to work for considerably less, they'll take them every time. They'd be foolish not to, since doing so lowers their risk and increases the odds of them getting a profit off of their investment.

 

Lots of people talk about "organizing" and dealing with these issues, and while that sounds good in theory, I can't see it ever happening. You'll ALWAYS have people who will not be part of that organization and who will be willing to forgo the rules in order to go after the "dream". And the industry promotes the "dream" because it serves their purposes.

 

It's not ideal, but it's reality. I'm with Dan - if you can't make a living, get a job. If you REALLY want to make a living at this, you'll find a way. Maybe that means working a "day gig" for a while, but if you're motivated and willing to work hard, I see no reason why you can't be moderately successful - at least enough so that you can meet / exceed the median income for the USA.

 

If you're disabled or sick and need assistance, I'm all for it. I'll help. But if you can work and "don't want to" then don't expect me to share my hard earned funds with you. Here in America, you're guaranteed the right to the "pursuit of happiness"... no one promised you'd BE happy - that's your responsibility.

 

 

Phil O'Keefe

Sound Sanctuary Recording

Riverside CA

http://members.aol.com/ssanctuary/index.html

pokeefe777@msn.com

[lrossmusic]

One of the great classical pianists (maybe Franz Liszt or Robert Schumann) once wrote to his students;

 

"Art was not invented as a means to riches."

 

He wrote this somewhere in the 1800's so the dilemma facing anyone serious about their art form is an old one.

Any of us today who think that we can make a serious contribution to the world of music without tremendous discipline or sacrifice is probably fantasizing a bit no matter how talented we might be. I guess it's up to individuals to decide just how far they can or are willing to go for their art and this might at times involve some very deep soul searching. An athlete considering the Olympics might face similar choices but obviously for not as long. I also suspect that it may be difficult to 'have your cake and eat it too' so to speak. A nice home and car etc. are worthy goals for anyone but if you also want to be a great musician you are going to have to pay some heavy dues. If you are fortunate enough to achieve both then you are in very special group so God bless you.

 

The 'path of the artist' can be, more often than not, 'a tough row to hoe'. )

 

 

 

This message has been edited by lrossmusic@hotmail.com on 04-19-2001 at 10:15 PM

[Lee Flier]

Interesting thread.

 

I must say that I'm very gratified to see that so many people have a "real world" attitude about what they do. When I first took a "day job" around 1985 I had a lot of friends in L.A. who laughed at me and told me I wasn't a "real" musician because I wasn't going to be making a living at it anymore. But, tell you what, I'd put in about 7 years of taking gigs at military bases to pay the bills, dealing with band members who quit because they weren't famous in 6 months, engineering on godawful hair band sessions who wanted drum sounds like Phil Collins. That was killing the creativity a lot more than any day gig as far as I was concerned. I'm glad I put the time in that I did, because that tough grind of gigging every night, and engineering for long days and months, gained me some experience that I think every musician or engineer needs to have to get to a certain level of competence. But really if you can keep doing that for years on end, you're a rarity, and like others have said, if you want a decent place to live and a vehicle that runs and a family, you will probably have to do something else to pay the bills.

 

ON THE OTHER HAND... I've known quite a few musicians who are truly, phenomenally talented and who also frankly do not have the kind of temperament to hold down a job. I don't mean they're lazy or prima donnas - I know plenty of those too and I have NO sympathy for them. But several of these people I'm thinking of work harder at their music than anyone I know, and are perfectly willing to keep touring and doing the grind well into their 40's and 50's and probably beyond. They would get fired from any job they tried to hold down - they're lucky if they can find two socks that match or a clock in the house that works. I'm sure you know the type - they live, breathe, eat and sleep music and are totally incompetant at "pragmatic" things. The true "artistic temperament". Yet they are also true geniuses at what they do.

 

So... do these people deserve to starve to death when they're old and can't tour anymore? If someone just doesn't fit into our social model, should they really just be SOL? Not trying to say the government should take care of them, we all know what kinds of abuses THAT would lead to. But still... I wrestle with that. Yes, being an artist is TOUGH, and if you are in it to make a lot of money, you'd probably better find something else to do. OTOH it's a shame that our culture values its artists so little. If you're "chosen" to be a musician in traditional cultures of say, Africa or India, you never have to worry about anything else again. You won't be rich by any means, but people will feed you and give you a decent place to stay and take care of you if you are sick. You will have teachers and mentors and instruments for your whole life, and transportation to your next gig. You have to work very hard for this, and you have to have real talent. A lot of people probably want to be "professional" musicians and can't, because they have to be accepted as such by their society. But once you're in the club, so to speak, there's never a question of whether you will want for anything necessary. On the other hand just about anybody in Africa, even a 5 year old, can sing and play an instrument better than a lot of so-called "professional" musicians here, so music is a part of life regardless of what else you do.

 

I will add that in the process of trying to become capitalist nations, a lot of this social structure has now been destroyed in those places.

 

So I guess I have mixed feelings about the whole thing. I have no sympathy for people who aren't willing to work. I do have sympathy for people, regardless of whether they're musicians or work at any other job, who work their asses off their whole life and can scarcely earn a living, and have no idea what they'd do if they fell ill or got too old to work. I guess one thing that confuses us in this country is that while there are no rich factory workers, there are a few rich musicians. And when those few who have been "blessed" want to do something for those many who weren't lucky enough to grab the brass ring, they are treated with cynicism. That's kind of sad.

 

I don't really know what the answer is, but I suspect that it isn't knee-jerk rhetoric about either capitalism or socialism.

 

--Lee

 

This message has been edited by Lee Flier on 04-19-2001 at 11:37 AM

[Calfee Jones]

Originally posted by Anderton:

The PPEHRC is in the process of waging a lawsuit before the

Inter-American Commission of the Organization of American States (OAS),

charging the United States government with violating the economic human

rights of its citizens-- the rights to food, housing, health care, and

education.

 

 

I never noticed the 'right' to food, housing, health care and education in the Constitution or the Bill of Rights. I know what it is like to be poor - I've been there. With no food and no health care and a high school dropout. But instead of deciding that I was a victim and that I needed to sue somebody, I decided to work hard at whatever I needed to do to improve my situation. This meant lousy jobs, wedding reception dj gigs, going to school financed by Pell Grants and student loans (when you are really poor these are much easier to get) and various other underground economy stuff.

 

In lots of ways - 'Ya pays yer money and ya takes yer choice'. And I don't think it is a good idea to create new 'rights' so I can be a victim and force someone else to give something to me. It's a much better idea to suck it up and pursue whatever opportunities are there. If we are talking about situations where opportunities are not there, or people cannot take advantage of them due to physical, mental or emotional problems, then of course compassion is the way to go.

 

And as far as musicians being taken advantage of - there are lots of things that need changed there.

 

But saying the government is somehow denying these 'rights' to people - I don't get it...

 

This message has been edited by Calfee Jones on 04-19-2001 at 12:17 PM