gae_layahoo.it Posted February 21, 2001 Share Posted February 21, 2001 i'm in a band and we play loud rock'n'roll music. the two guitarists like their amps set to a fairly loud level.it's an integral part of their sound,they've worked hard to achieve it. we played a few gigs in small,medium and large-sized venues and every time the FOH guy asked us to set the amp levels to a "reasonable" volume,because of problems with the monitors(i'm sure every rock band has experienced this at least once). my question is: is there a way to keep the amps loud without causing any trouble? thanks for reading this post. gaetano Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alphajerk Posted February 21, 2001 Share Posted February 21, 2001 this has been discussed to the minute level already, i dont know where it is but maybe someone else can point you to it. large venues it shouldnt ever be a problem. mid sized maybe, small clubs ive seen powersoaks used well as well as facing the amp backwards. alphajerk FATcompilation "if god is truly just, i tremble for the fate of my country" -thomas jefferson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gae_layahoo.it Posted February 21, 2001 Author Share Posted February 21, 2001 thank you very much.i'll look for the thread in the "archives". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kris Posted February 21, 2001 Share Posted February 21, 2001 Lately I've been putting my monitor up on a crate or chair so its right close to me, helps some. Kris My Band: http://www.fullblackout.com UPDATED!!! Fairly regularly these days... http://www.logcabinmusic.com updated 11/9/04 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GigaBoy Posted February 21, 2001 Share Posted February 21, 2001 I used to do live sound for a band with two uncontrollable guitarists. For a while we used to set the guitar amps behind the front of house cabinets facing backwards at the players. This got the guitar cabinets closer to the performers and introduced the guitar amp bleed from the back/side of the vocal mics instead directly into them and eliminated the need for any guitars in the monitor mix. It was a little help but the guitar players eventually wanted the amps back where they belong. It was novel, however, and made for a very clean stage setup. Why is it that the guys with dual marshall stacks seldom understand that all those speakers on the stage are reducing the front of house mixer's options towards creating a good mix. (considering small to medium sized venues) Personal opinion here: When guitarists in a live performance situation insist that their amp must be exceedingly loud just to "get the tone", these guitarists are typically not playing to the song, they're playing for the personal thrill. The hair tingling effects of standing right in front of a big stack are felt by the player only. The audience's only benefit is the extra mud in the mix created by all the wash from the the speakers bleeding into the drum and vocal mics. I suppose if the stack is a kind of "security blanket" one could do like I do to many screaming and kicking guitarists in the studio. I often disconnect all but a single top speaker in a marshall cabinet when recording. I find the end result an improvement in guitar sound. GigaBoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KenElevenShadows Posted February 21, 2001 Share Posted February 21, 2001 During one of our first gigs, the sound engineer was commenting that he was having difficulty getting more out of the vocal mic without feeding back. I said, "Would it help if I turn down", pointing to my guitar amp. The guy looked at me, slack-jawed and incredulous, and slowly nodded his head. "Yes, that'd be great!", he said. I guess it must not be very common for guitar players to play quietly at clubs? Sure helps the sound, though. ------------------ Ken/Eleven Shadows/d i t h er/nectar ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ music*travel photos*tibet*lots of stuff "Sangsara" "Irian Jaya" & d i t h er CDs available! http://www.elevenshadows.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Ken Lee Photography - photos and books Eleven Shadows ambient music The Mercury Seven-cool spacey music Linktree to various sites Instagram Nightaxians Video Podcast Eleven Shadows website Ken Lee Photography Pinterest Page Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murph Posted February 21, 2001 Share Posted February 21, 2001 A great blues guitarist once told me, "Play as loud as you feel. No more." Now I'm of a rare breed: sound engineers, more often than not have to tell me to turn up, rather than down. The look on their face when they ask is hilarious, because they've probably never asked before! If they turn up because of "the sound", there are boxes that you can get that intercept the signal between the amp and speakers and safely attenuates it. You can turn the amp up all the way to get the sound, but the output can be pretty low. If they can't hear themselves, convince them that the monitors can have guitar signal in them also. If it's an ego thing, inform them that extra volume, like ownership of a sports car, does not compensate for inadequate sexual performance! Bill Murphy www.murphonics.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kris Posted February 21, 2001 Share Posted February 21, 2001 : When guitarists in a live performance situation insist that their amp must be exceedingly loud just to "get the tone", these guitarists are typically not playing to the song, they're playing for the personal thrill ---------------------- If were talking about competent guitar players then this isn't the case... It's (usually) not about being the loudest one in the house etc. With good old Fender tube amps and the like, there is a threshold of level that you have to reach for the amp to REALLY sing. Unfortunately that level is sometimes a little loud for a small venue. Kris My Band: http://www.fullblackout.com UPDATED!!! Fairly regularly these days... http://www.logcabinmusic.com updated 11/9/04 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Riehle Posted February 22, 2001 Share Posted February 22, 2001 Originally posted by Ken/Eleven Shadows: [bI said, "Would it help if I turn down", pointing to my guitar amp. The guy looked at me, slack-jawed and incredulous, and slowly nodded his head. "Yes, that'd be great!", he said. [/b] I wish I'd been there. A priceless moment, I'm sure. ------------------ Michael Riehle Bass Player/Band Leader fivespeed Michael Riehle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alphajerk Posted February 22, 2001 Share Posted February 22, 2001 "If were talking about competent guitar players then this isn't the case... It's (usually) not about being the loudest one in the house etc. With good old Fender tube amps and the like, there is a threshold of level that you have to reach for the amp to REALLY sing. Unfortunately that level is sometimes a little loud for a small venue." ditto, and quite true. my fender bassman doesnt sound good until you get it cranked and then it outright SINGS... my marshall i can keep quite low and get the tone i want. there really is no other way, which is when i recommend a powersoak for small clubs, lets the amp light up but not the listeners ears. alphajerk FATcompilation "if god is truly just, i tremble for the fate of my country" -thomas jefferson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
velvetgeorgeyahoo.com Posted February 22, 2001 Share Posted February 22, 2001 As a guitar player and sound man, I'm on both sides of this fence. Add a picolo snare and horn section to that and you've entered my world. Some things that have helped (not cured by any means) are these..... 1. in ear monitors for the singer. These have made the single most drastic improvement performance wise. Albeit, sidestepping the real problem. 2. seperate monitor mixes. Nothing like a horn mix in your wedge to make you turn up even more. 3. gates on the vocal mics. Picking up anything besides vocals just adds to the wash on stage. 4. turning the guitar amp/cabinet up at an angle. In my case leaning the 4x12 marshall cab against the road case, pointing up at my ears (not at the vocal mic!). This has cut my stage volume by about 1/3. 5. the power brake method. With my old amp, a non master volume marshall, the power brake was a must. Especially when started leaning my cabinet. Now that I've retired the old head, a simple twist of the master suffices. For Fenders and the like, try plugging in a spare cab and keeping the cover on. When I used to play with a now famous white rapper I pointed my amp at the back wall. What ever works. Hope these are usefull to somebody. Velvet George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Submersible Posted February 22, 2001 Share Posted February 22, 2001 I've been playing through low-wattage amps for a while. If you like to turn up, forget power soaks and all the rest! A smaller amp is your answer. I play small to medium sized clubs with a Dr. Z Maz Jr. It says "18 Watts" right on the faceplace. I always get a "it's your funeral" expression from the soundguy--until we start playing, that is! When I need more clean headroom, I use a 40 watt Bandmaster. If I feel like carting more stuff to gigs, I guess I'll experiment with a multi-amp setup soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alphajerk Posted February 22, 2001 Share Posted February 22, 2001 i've seen and heard a peavey tiny 8" practice amp sound like a wall of stacks before. but now everyone wants the brown sound and not the metal sound and you are back to bassmans and the like [try an ampeg... this guitarist i work with just got his fixed, were going to put it on my back porch and face it out towards the mountains in my backyard and ternitallthewayup... mic it about 100 feet away in my yard and catch the echos rolling around the ridges (i've heard the echo from people shooting off their guns... its bad as shit)] alphajerk FATcompilation "if god is truly just, i tremble for the fate of my country" -thomas jefferson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Flier Posted February 22, 2001 Share Posted February 22, 2001 Ampegs rule! That is what I play, and have always played. And nobody better tell me to turn it down. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif It really does have to be at a certain volume to get the tone, and they don't make a smaller model that sounds as good - wish they did. Tube amps are just like that. My amp's not all that big, but it can still be too loud for smaller venues. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/frown.gif Guess that just means I have to play bigger ones! --Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gil_dup1 Posted February 22, 2001 Share Posted February 22, 2001 I get sick of loud amp bollocks. I'v a good selection of work arounds for guitarists, and I will try every thing before I ask some one to turn down. I had a scary experience once with the guitar player in my own band....he has a fender twin. We were in a very small club, no sound check,small stage and I couldn't get out of the beam of his amp.I was wearing a pair of musicains ear plugs with 15 dB filters in them. he was so loud that I ended up with this weird kind of tinnitus were every thing was roaring and normal sounds were too loud and I couldn't walk as the thump of my feet made my head boom and roar. I could hardly stand up. I spent a day wondering what the f**k I was going to do with the rest of my life, crying and thinking of ways to kill him. I thought I was screwed forever. It lasted about a day and I ended up with a small amount of damage in one ear. I went and saw a specialist who said I'd had an extreme reaction to excessive SPL. As you can imagine, I was extremly pissed with the guitar player. The next gig I threatened to walk off the stage if it got beyound a reasonable level...he turned way down and after the show said....'can we get that guy again, those were the best monitors I'v ever had"!!! unreal. I would truely hate anyone to experience that one day I had, it was hideously uncomfortable, let alone contemplating the end of my career. Not sure what the point of telling this story......maybe to qualify my 'loud amp bollocks' statement... Gil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aframe9999 Posted February 22, 2001 Share Posted February 22, 2001 As the guitar player in the band, I also have to run sound for the house. (not a fun job) My monitor mix is identical to the house mix. This is the only way I can gauge what the audience is hearing. So out of necessity I've had to balance the tone all of us guitar players think we can only get by having the amp on '10', and having a reasonable stage level. (How can I come up with a fairly accurate mix with my amp cranked in my ear?) Soooooo what i have done is mic the cabinet and have some sort of baffle over the cabinet. I've used an old bedspread with a snappy leopard skin print over the cabinet and mic (Never cover the amp however. they like to breath fresh air). Or ive used a piece of wood with foam on one side and place it over the mic and cabinet (foam toward the speakers). These two methods let me have my amp as loud as i think i need to have it without drowning out every body else and annoying the audience. Just another idea..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murph Posted February 23, 2001 Share Posted February 23, 2001 Some tube amps do need the heat going through them to sound a certain way... and that's where the power soaks come in. The suggestion to use a smaller wattage amp is awesome! Steve Lukather used to use a 100W for clean and a 50W for distortion so he can overdrive the tubes a little more. I think most guitar players (realize that I am one too!) forget the sound formula of the Fletcher-Munson curve, which in a nutshell says that most things sound better loud than soft. As a soundman, if the guitarist is telling you, "I have to be loud for it to sound good," tell him, "Don't worry, I'll make it loud, and you'll sound great." Make up a story about how the mics can't handle the SPL, or whatever. Bill Murphy www.murphonics.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom H Posted February 24, 2001 Share Posted February 24, 2001 I have a somewhat different take on this topic. I get together with my bandmates regularly to practice, in a basement where the acoustics are admittedly poor. The problem is that my guitar amp is small and very directional, so much so that unless you are standing directly in front of it, you cannot hear it at all with other musicians playing. Given the objective of bouncing sounds and ideas around, this doesn't work very well. I suppose I could split a feed off to the sound board and run through the sound system, but I'd like to try to find a more "natural" solution to this. Any ideas would be appreciated. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 26, 2001 Share Posted February 26, 2001 I was in a band and one of the guitarist had no conception about how loud he was. I was next to him (keyboard) he didn't sound too loud to me either. During a sound check to a sequenced tune, I could hear the problem the other and members were complaining about. Solution: we put his amp to the side at a greater distance from him than immediately behind. At that point he could adjust the volume to his satisfaction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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