dave251 Posted February 19, 2001 Share Posted February 19, 2001 Lately in my neck of the woods there has been a rising interest for folk groups to gather around one microphone. Several stringed instruments and three or four vocalists using one mic, both for recording and performance. The performing venue is typically a church or old schoolhouse that has been converted for community use. These groups are NOT be performing in noisy bars or in front of rude crowds. Any recommendations for mics, speakers, and input control? Thanks, Dave Dave Wendler Instruments Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donfolkcafe.com Posted February 19, 2001 Share Posted February 19, 2001 This is seen with Bluegrass group a fair amount. My understanding is that there are 2 main reasons this is done. Some groups want to be able to show up anywhere and get consistant sound. Many touring groups have had bad experiences with sound providers that are of the "hard rock" mentality. The other reason has to do with the sound quality. You don't have phase issues like when you have multiple sources. This is the reason for the natural sound of this technique. If done right it works great. Pick a decent large diaphram mic of your choice. The musical group is set up around the mic. For leads the performers come in closer to the mic. No monitors are used in this set-up. FOH needs to be carefully placed. What speakers to use will depend on the room. It works in this genre because you don't have the need for high SPL output from the PA. This set-up also requires the performers be highly skilled at controlling the performance levels. They have to have keen awareness of how to "mix" the sound on stage. The best way to practice this is without a PA. Once you can get your sound perfect in your living room your ready to try this. Your sound guy has to be prepared to sit back and enjoy, as he will find he has little else to do. This is a set it and forget it kind of methord. Don (Old Folkie) Goguen Folk Cafe Productions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave251 Posted February 19, 2001 Author Share Posted February 19, 2001 Thanks Don- Omni or directional? Condenser or dynamic? Dave Wendler Instruments Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donfolkcafe.com Posted February 20, 2001 Share Posted February 20, 2001 The AT4050 at about $580 or 4033 for $350 should do nicely. I have seen both used with good results. A lot depend on the level your at. The 4033 is a cardiod only while the 4050 is a multi-pattern. I would use cardiod with whatever you go with. You mentioned recording so the 4050 would make a solid choice unless you wanted to go higher on the foodchain. Say like a Neumann U87. If this is something you just want to try out then borrow a couple of different large diaphram mics and give it a go. The biggest issue seems to be cost but if you consider the cost of a "standard" mic set-up it will top out at much more. For Folk work I travel with an assortment of vocal and instrument mics. The cost of which would pay for a bunch of 4050's and a Neumann or 2. So for $580 one is getting away cheap. Don Goguen Folk Cafe Productions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
breakwaybellatlantic.net Posted February 20, 2001 Share Posted February 20, 2001 I would approach the "single mic" theory like the "single bullet" theory. It may satisfy some, but most won't buy it. As Don says, FOH speaker placement is critical, but I bet you dollars to donuts that the majority of venues you play will yield unusable gain-before-feedback scenarios. It is very difficult to keep frequencies below 200 Hz from "wrapping around" back to the mic, simple physics of waves. Also, reflections from surfaces (think stone church wall) contribute to feedback modes. Also, as Don points out, forget monitor speakers unless they would use ear buds, and bluegrassies are pretty anti-electronic! I don't mean to sound pessimistic, as apparently some artist/venue combos work, but overall, it is a daunting prospect. Anyway, if you go that route, try a Shure KSM-32: it's reliable, warm sounding, and cardiod. Also, a parametric EQ or feedback suppressor is a must. Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave251 Posted February 20, 2001 Author Share Posted February 20, 2001 There has been a rising interest of late...seems like these "folk groups" want nothing to do with amplification...only as a necessity. And I have seen it work very well, IF THE CROWD IS QUIET!! One of the major pleasures of working with a group like this is the intimacy and familiarity the performers have with each other...the soundman isn't to blame any more. It seems to me in this situation the speaker system becomes paramount...ie, an absolutely flat and phase responsive system needs to be used, to "isolate" the room, making for an easier time with eq and feedback suppression. I have been looking at a good tube mic channel in addition to a 4 or 5 band parametric. A simple 3-way passive speaker system should work fine if the response is flat enough and there were no major phase shift anomalies. I have in the past used some EAW cabs and thought they sounded great. Are there other PA cabs out there with the kind of flat response the EAW's have? Please let me know if there are any major holes in the direction I am heading.... Dave Dave Wendler Instruments Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Denike Posted February 20, 2001 Share Posted February 20, 2001 Have you tried this with a 'Middle-Side' configuration? Maybe a Royer Ribbon mike (figure-8) and a cardioid (did I spell that right) on the same stand? Does anyone make a mount for M-S? NO, not MicroSoft Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GZsound Posted February 21, 2001 Share Posted February 21, 2001 The local Bluegrass folks here mostly use an AT 4033. Some of us sound guys have started using Rode mics, either NT1 or NT2. I have one band I work with that uses two AT 4033 mics stacked on top of each other. The best setup I have used for sound reinforcement and live recording was with a Rode in the center and two CAD CM17 small condensers on either side facing left and right below it. Great sound and depth and a good stereo spread. I think the CAD is one of the best sounding acoustic instrument mics available for the money by far. Less than $80.00. ------------------ Mark G. Mark G. "A man may fail many times, but he isn't a failure until he begins to blame others" -- John Burroughs "I consider ethics, as well as religion, as supplements to law in the government of man." -- Thomas Jefferson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donfolkcafe.com Posted February 21, 2001 Share Posted February 21, 2001 I will attempt to address a couple of issues. I will avoid any brand opinions and stick with some common sense. It will not really matter so much what kind of speaker i.e. 3way and such. Every room is different and will have to be dealt with as such. Yes you need to start with good sounding speakers but there are plenty of those out there. It becomes brand pref. at this point. If you take any room and begin by placing a pair of speakers at various points in the room you will discover that the sound in the room will change. I have done live gigs where changing placement a couple of feet has made a huge difference. The goal of a PA in a acoustic setting is to remain neutral and natural. The PA as a whole should be able to capture the details of this genre. It is important quality gear be used from mic to speaker but this is true in all aspects of sound, PA or recording. Throw in a peice of crap in any sound chain and you'll effect the sounds quality. As far as a tube front end, I'm not sure what it will net you. We have both tube and solid state pre's in the studio. You can get good results using a decent mixer. If you choose to go with a separate pre what will that go into. If it's a mixer, it to will effect the sound. My advice is to go with good quality mic/mixer/amp/speaker set-up. How's that for general and vague. If this set-up requires purchase then "try before you buy" is the only way to go. At some point you will come up with a set-up that works for you. My opinion is no substitute for your own ears. Go with what you like. Don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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