Cascading two Yamaha Digital Mixers

[Philip OKeefe]

Hi everyone:

 

I have an AW4416 and I am thinking about adding a second one, or maybe a 01V for more inputs. I currently use my AW with either 2 20 bit ADATs (hooked up via lightpipe cards) or with my computer DAW (933MHz PIII, 256 MB RAM, 2 HDD's, Logic Platinum 4.61, Vegas Audio, 32 channel Frontier Dakota / Montana lightpipe cards) and I really like it, but it would be nice to be able to have all 32 channels of the DAW available at once. As it is now I can either have both ADATs on line, or half of the DAW's lightpipe channels.

 

So I was thinking if I add a second AW to the setup, I could have the additional 16 channels of onboard HDR tracks, plus get two more lightpipe cards. That would give me 32 DAW tracks, 32 AW4416 tracks and (if I really wanted to be stupid) up to 16 ADAT track via the analog ins on the AW4416's.

 

Here's my problem / questions: Right now, my BRC is supplying W/C and MTC to the AW, as well as to the DAW (the Frontier cards have 9 pin sync jacks that transmit W/C and MTC). If I add the SECOND AW, I'd want to cascade it via the S/PDIF input jack out of one AW to the S/PDIF in jack on the other one. They have a S/PDIF "mix to stereo bus" with an atten. control that is supposed to be how you "cascade". If I cascade this way, and assuming that the two AW4416's are getting W/C from the BRC (via lightpipe inputs - either from the DAW or ADAT machines, which are all clocked off the BRC's 9 pin output) or the BRC's BNC W/C output, will the S/PDIF pose any W/C conflicts?

 

Anyone out there cascading AW's (or any other Yamaha digi mixers such as the 02R, 03D or 01V)? Any issues I need to be aware of? I have also considered adding a 01V for additional inputs instead of the second AW4416, but that might not be the best approach. The AW doesn't send MIDI CC's at the moment, and the 01V WOULD allow me the ability to control Logic's faders, but I have a Tascam US-428, and the Windows enviroment for that should be ready RSN (now if I can only get the silly blue box to quit doing playback pops and clicks every ten seconds... http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/mad.gif ).

 

Oh, there's no cascade type card for the AW as some other Yamaha boards have. As far as aux sends, I really only need to get two over to the "master" AW from the slave (for headphone cue mixes), and I figured I'd just take two omni outs from one machine and route them into analog ins on the second machine and assign them to faders, and turn up the appropriate aux sends there on those channels. Yeah, it would be a headphone submix from one of the AW's but I could still control the individual aux levels for the cue feed.

 

I know that if there's going to be word clock problems I could do an analog cascade, but I'd like to do it digitally if that's possible.

 

Any advice or suggestions are greatly appreciated. Thanks!

 

 

Phil O'Keefe

Sound Sanctuary Recording

Riverside CA

http://members.aol.com/ssanctuary/index.html

email: pokeefe777@msn.com

[dansouth]

Phil,

 

Your proposed setup is a lot more complex than mine, but I have used an 01V as a submixer to the AW in instances when I wanted to record 16 tracks at once (Quick Record Mode). I used lightpipe for all connections and send 8 channels from the 01V to the AW. Word clock was not a problem. I set the AW as the master, and I had the 01V sync to the incoming lightpipe signal. I know, now you're wondering how what signal was coming INTO the 01V. The answer is none, just sync. I ran lightpipe in both directions so that the 01V would be able to sync up to the AW. You would NOT have do to this with your second AW, as it has a dedicated word clock input.

 

Caveat 1: Keep in mind that S/PDIF maxes out at 20 bits. I'd prefer to use lightpipe or AES/EBU for transfers. I'm using S/PDIF for a reverb send, where fidelity is less critical.

 

Caveat 2: Submixed tracks may experience a slight delay. I planned for this by running pads and other non-attack-intensive sounds through the 01V. If they're 20ms late, no one is going to be the wiser.

 

Caveat 3: Your system is becoming unwieldy in its complexity. Maybe it's time to trade up to a system that supports more tracks per unit (Mackie, Tascam, ADAT-HD, etc).

 

Have a great weekend,

Dan

[Philip OKeefe]

Originally posted by dansouth@yahoo.com:

Phil,

 

Your proposed setup is a lot more complex than mine, but I have used an 01V as a submixer to the AW in instances when I wanted to record 16 tracks at once (Quick Record Mode). I used lightpipe for all connections and send 8 channels from the 01V to the AW. Word clock was not a problem. I set the AW as the master, and I had the 01V sync to the incoming lightpipe signal. I know, now you're wondering how what signal was coming INTO the 01V. The answer is none, just sync. I ran lightpipe in both directions so that the 01V would be able to sync up to the AW. You would NOT have do to this with your second AW, as it has a dedicated word clock input.

 

Caveat 1: Keep in mind that S/PDIF maxes out at 20 bits. I'd prefer to use lightpipe or AES/EBU for transfers. I'm using S/PDIF for a reverb send, where fidelity is less critical.

 

Caveat 2: Submixed tracks may experience a slight delay. I planned for this by running pads and other non-attack-intensive sounds through the 01V. If they're 20ms late, no one is going to be the wiser.

 

Caveat 3: Your system is becoming unwieldy in its complexity. Maybe it's time to trade up to a system that supports more tracks per unit (Mackie, Tascam, ADAT-HD, etc).

 

Have a great weekend,

Dan

 

 

Dan:

 

Thanks for the tips and Info. I actually sent a S/PDIF that was also synced to the ADAT / BRC / DAW system into the AW (which was also sync'ed to the BRC's W/C and MTC) and it cascaded it just fine. So it looks like a second AW will work cascaded, as advertised by Yamaha, even if you're using the card slots for digital I/O - as long as everyone is sharing a common word clock, which they would be in my case.

 

Your caveats are well taken, but here's a few thoughts -

 

Caveat 1 - uhh, actually Yamaha says (and my tests support this) that the AW S/PDIF is actually 24 bit, not 20 bit. The 01V product brochure even says IT'S S/PDIF is at 24 bits, but I don't have one to test...

 

Caveat 2 - Delays. Ahhh, latency, isn't it grand? http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/frown.gif Well, I deal with that already from the ADATs and DAW, so what I do is to offset all the onboard AW tracks by the appropriate amount so everything is in alignment. You have to figure out what your actual latency IS for each device, and then set the AW's internal tracks to delay by the same amount. Any other devices with less latency delays you offset by a corresponding amount (which would be less than the AW's internal tracks, which you'd want to set to compensate for the same delay time as the maximum latency device). Once you've figured all of this out, save a preset, and you're all set each time you want to use the outboard devices.

 

Caveat 3 - Upgrade? Yes, I can see your point about the complexity, but I really want to get AWAY from using the ADATs (except for compatability with old projects, other studios and archiving), and so we're really only talking about syncing up two AW's and my DAW and bringing 32 tracks from the DAW (16 tracks in per AW), over the lightpipe cards. The BRC and ADAT's will be out of the system unless I'm offloading to tape, which I'd do from the DAW anyway.

 

So one AW will be the W/C and MTC master, the other will be the W/C and MTC slave. The DAW's audio cards (Frontier Dakota and Montana) have a W/C input, and so I'll be sending the DAW MTC and W/C from the master AW as well.

 

With presets and digital patchbays (there's an excellent one in software for the Dakota / Montana I/O's) I should be able to go from mode to mode (one AW's inputs out the card slot lightpipe into the other AW's recorder, overdubbing, cascaded mixdowns, whatever) fairly quickly.

 

I'll only be using analog AW inputs for mics (occasionally) and for line ins for the reverb return submixes, stereo headphone cue aux sends (from one AW into the other) and that's about it. Between the two AW's and the DAW, I'd have 64 tracks. If that's not enough I'm NOT going to break out the ADATs and BRC and try to use those analog ins for bringing ADAT line outs into the equation. If 64's not enough, the client's flat outta luck, and needs to get a life anyway! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif

 

After doing this last test, I'm very confident that everything will work according to my needs and plans.

 

Thanks again for taking the time to let me know about your 01V and AW!

 

 

Phil O'Keefe

Sound Sanctuary Recording

Riverside CA

http://members.aol.com/ssanctuary/index.html

email: pokeefe777@msn.com