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Please help - Mac vs. PC for Digi 001?


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I'm building a personal studio and have a Digi 001. I'm undecided as to go Mac or PC. Looking mostly to record acoustic piano/keyboards (some gtr). I'm kinda drawn to the rhythm capabilities of programs like SF's Acid and the affordability of PC vs Mac.

 

The PC will save some bucks for better mic pres and mics but I want to make the right decision before I lay out the cash for the machine.

 

Any advice or recommendations are greatly appreciated.

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Will you need to interface with other Pro-Tools systems? Most studios have Mac based systems, it's my understanding that a session done on a PC doesn't just open up on a Mac after the fact. Can anyone verify this?

 

I personally like Mac's much more. They are more stable. They look cool. Pro-Tools was made to run on a mac then rigged after the fact to work on a PC. All this being said if I only had one computer at home it would have to be a PC. You just can't find enough good software for the Mac, plus the additional cost of a Mac. But if you are going to have a separate computer for recording then I would suggest a Mac. Go for it.

 

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Tiny G

Tiny G
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I'm going to buy Digi001 in a few weeks. I've looked into this quite a bit. I have two PCs at home which I have worked with for 5 years. For Protools I'm goint MAC! It seems pretty clear that anybody who's gone PC to Mac has never looked back. I can't find any evidence for the converse.
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I have a PC. I can't imagine a Mac being worse than what I have to go through. Get a Mac. Oh, and if anyone knows of a manufacturer that can make a soundcard last longer than about five years, please let me know.

 

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Let me add my $.02 to the very old Mac vs PC battle.

 

I'm an Op's engineer in a studio with 3 Protools TDM systems, Avid Meridian, Sonic Solutions and Final Cut Pro. All are Mac based. It is my job to support these platforms. When dealing with audio and video, the old arguments just don't hold up. Since Mac's adopted many PC standards,like the PCI bus, there are just as many issues configuring a Mac for duty as a high end workstation. So I have my Mac credentials.

 

I also had to make this decision for my home rig. The biggest problem going Mac was the cost. Once you get past the price of a new G4, you have the cost of all the extras. I wanted dual monitors, extra storage, CD burner and more memory. Also there is no provision to add additional cooling to the Mac case. A must if you want to enclose the CPU to keep noise down. The CD burner on a Mac meant external. SCSI and firewire is not cheap either. The Appian Mac dual monitor card is the cost of the 001. The price just gets plain out of control.

 

Although I work mainly with Macs at my job, I'm an old PC guy. I researched the issues with the 001 and the PC. After building a couple of Sonic Solutions workstations I have learned to rely on tried and tested configurations. I followed the Digi spec's to the letter. Read all the documentation carefully and performed a ground up build. All worked flawlessly. This was about the easiest workstation I have ever built. The documentation was clearly laid out and easy to follow.

 

I figured that I saved more than 2/3rds of what it would have cost to set up on a Mac. I ended up spending a little under $1k for the computer not including monitors. Price out the equivalent configuration on a Mac and you'll see it get out of hand fast. An equal Mac topped out at over $3k.

 

As far as the cross platform issue, 5.1 takes care of that.

 

Here the list.

 

Asus CUBX-E motherboard

Intel 800mhz cpu

256mb memory

Matrox G450 dualhead video card

IBM ATA 100 drives

Plextor 12/10/32 burner

Acer 40X CD drive

Inwin case

 

I just wish I could get our Sonic Solutions workstation to be this stable.

 

Good luck with your choice. Also spend some time on the Digi user forum. It has a ton of useful information. The most common thread is not to go with name branded PC's. Custom build to spec is the best way to go. Any good local computer shop should be able to put one together for you if you can't build your own. Just insist they follow spec. Better yet every one knows a computer geek, right. Get some help and build your own.

 

Don

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Here's a question: how soon do you want to upgrade to ProTools LE version 5.1? Digidesign says its available for Mac now (although I cant find it anywhere on their site), but that it wont be available on PC until fall. With Digidesigns release track record, that could mean spring of 2002.

 

Digidesign went from being a Mac only company to a Mac first company. I doubt that will change anytime soon.

Enthusiasm powers the world.

 

Craig Anderton's Archiving Article

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I use both PCs and Macs, but I've always used the Mac for audio and the PC for "office" stuff. I also used to do tech support (on both platforms).

 

I find it interesting that the only person recommending a PC is a tech support person. This is not a dis to Don. He obviously knows what he's doing - my point exactly. It takes a fair amount of knowledge to figure out how to configure them to work reliably - and to know which software, motherboards and peripherals get along.

 

Yes, PCs CAN run reliably. It's just how much time and knowledge do you want to put into figuring out which one to buy and then configuring and maintaining it - vs just buying the darn thing and start recording music?

 

I was recording with my Mac (and 001) an hour after I opened the box.

 

Ask the PTLE PC guys how many plugins they have. I have McDSP, Waves Gold, DUY Everpak, Autotune/Mic Modeler, NI's B4 (no DirectConnect for the PC, i.e., no software synths AT ALL with PTLE on the PC), Maxim, D-Fi, and Realverb. I believe only the Antares and Digi stuff is also available for the PC in RTAS format (of what I have).

 

Look carefully over the list of 3rd party plugins on Digi's site to see if what's available for the PC will fulfill your needs. Certainly Bomb Factory coming to the PTLE PC's rescue will help - but I'm not sure if they're actually shipping yet.

 

I'd say, if you need certain applications such as ACID or Gigasampler, then get a PC. That's all they'll run on natively.

 

But for everything else in audio, I'd say, go Mac and never look back.

 

The cost difference is NOT as great as it used to be. I just saw a refurbed G3/400 (Yosemite) for $800. At the same site they have a G4/450 for $1329 (www.powermax.com). Add 128MB of RAM to either and you're set. A PC equivalent will cost a few hundred less - and generally cost you more than a few hours of configuration and troubleshooting time. I paid $2500 for my G4/400 AGP only a little over a year ago. They can be found used for $1000 or so now.

 

 

------------------

Larry W.

 

 

This message has been edited by lwilliam on 02-15-2001 at 12:48 AM

Larry W.
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I guess the main point of my post got lost. I had to do nothing out of the ordinary to make the 001 work in a PC. I simply read and followed directions. Inspite of my background I have no way of telling what will work with any application. I get all this information from the provider of the platform. In this case Digidesign.

 

I have seen this debate going on for years. You can have just as much trouble with a Mac. I have no dog in this fight. I have had more than my share of troubles with both platforms. Issues like upgrading firmware on an adaptec 3940 SCSI card so it would work with a Blue & White G3. How about chipset issues with expasion chassis because of Apple's decision that no one needs more that 3 PCI slots. The last TDM I put together in a G4 was a nightmare because of all the hardware issues. I spent about 3 weeks solid working out all the issues.

 

It is human nature to fear the unknown. We also tend to stick with what we know. The company I work for, has over the years been eliminating Mac's in the work place. I can see why. The cost savings for thousands of computers is substantial. The media group I work in has been traditionally Mac based. This has meant that everyone in the group had a Mac not just creative workstations. The terror that strikes when an account rep or producer's computer platform is changed is quite a site. What most of them have found out, is that the sky hasn't fallen.

 

Larry's statement about cost only addressed the computer and ignored the rest. I talked about total cost to get up and going.

 

The plug in's are a important issue. One that a person will have to decide for themselves. The Digi systems on a Mac are more mature. Digi is a relative newcomer to the PC. That being said they have come a long way in a short time. The PC is cathing up fast.

 

I am not a big plug in user so it is not an issue with me. It would also be important to decide what your home set up is to be. By this I mean that you have to decide if your planning to have your home rig be your only studio.

 

It used to be that when home recording equipment was analog the home studio operator had to learn to maintain their gear. We are so used to the computer being the magic box today. I build workstations. I do not expect them to do spreadsheets. I never expected my Otari's to do anthing other than what it was designed for. It matters not if you go PC or Mac, learn about them for your own benefit.

 

Again my main point is that you can run into a heap of problem with either platform.

 

My job used to be about being good with equipment. Now it is all about knowing how to deal with computers and software. It is rare when I get to repair anything electronic.

 

Don

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Question: Can I easily transfer wav files from Mac to PC using the 001? I have a couple of friends that are all getting into recording on the PC and I'm suggesting to go w/ the 001 so that we can record and transfer. Can we do this cross platform? (I really appreciate the well thought out and comprehensive advice - thank you - you guys are really great!)
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Well, I started on Mac and went to PC and have never looked back if it's any consolation. I really don't miss playing with memory settings, extensions, and lousy multi-tasking. Still, if you like Mac better than more power to ya!

 

-Dylan

 

Originally posted by Jim S:

It seems pretty clear that anybody who's gone PC to Mac has never looked back. I can't find any evidence for the converse.

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um, Dylan, neither PCs nor Macs are truly multi-tasking yet, though with OSX hopefully Macs will be soon. if you want True multi-tasking, find a good 7-10 year old Amiga...different windows from different apps open AND active in the Foreground at the same time...suweeet....

 

Don, do you have any Unix/Linux experience you could share with us as it could relate to OSX?

 

 

abiasi...this may be interesting link for you...

 

http://www.lowendmac.com/lab/010215.html

 

 

 

This message has been edited by Rader Ranch on 02-15-2001 at 01:20 PM

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I would like to put my 2 cents in here on the debate - I have been doing Mac and PC consultation for over 10 years, specifically for home and professional studios. I can tell you from DIRECT experience that, unless you are experienced with PC's, it's better to go Mac. The initial cost may be higher, BUT you will save yourself tons of time with troubleshooting and configuration. I have both PC's and Mac's in my studio and the ONLY reason I can see using a PC is if the software you want to run is only available for the PC (in my case, I'm using Gigasampler...). I have talked well over 25 people into moving from PC to Mac and not one of them has every switched back - in fact, a large majority thanked me profusely for convincing them. They get more done, they have fewer problems - nuf said.

 

Yes, PC's are cheaper - but how much is your time worth?

Yes, PC's have more software available - but how much of it would you really use?

 

The guys I know that are running PC's are constantly battling with upgrades, installation problems, etc - rather than getting things done. When a bunch of us get together, the PC guys are rappin' about how to fix something - the Mac guys are talking about better ways to craft their sound.

 

Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying a Mac is for everyone. PC's have their place (as in my Gigasampler rig...) - I just don't see why anyone would think they're saving money when they have to spend more time fixing things than actually doing music.

 

I'm actually happy that there are still those that insist on PC's - their problems have made me plenty of money as a consultant.

 

As for Bob - I think his problems are pretty minor and only relevant if you're running a ProFools system, which most home guys aren't. The day that PC's become as easy to use and trouble-free as Mac's, I'm all there - I certainly don't like spending more money if I don't have to.

 

ONE more important point - the GHZ issue is so skewed. I have an 833mhz PIII and, in direct, real-world tests, it often is slower than my G4/500. I've done these kinds of tests with other systems over the last few years and Mac's have always outperformed an equivalent PC - to the tune of 1.5 - 2x faster.

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Originally posted by lwilliam:

I'd say, if you need certain applications such as ACID or Gigasampler, then get a PC. That's all they'll run on natively.

 

Bitheadz has created a Mac equivalent of ACID called, "Phrazer." I dont know its a good as ACID, but you might want to check it out if thats an important issue.

 

Originally posted by abiasi@musicplayer.com:

Question: Can I easily transfer wav files from Mac to PC using the 001? I have a couple of friends that are all getting into recording on the PC and I'm suggesting to go w/ the 001 so that we can record and transfer. Can we do this cross platform?

 

If you upgrade to ProTools LE 5.1, I believe you will have the ability to track and import wav files in ProTools. Otherwise, you will have to convert Sound Designer II files (the type of files ProTools has traditionally created) to wav files in another program after tracking. This is probably a free upgrade for you since you bought your system recently.

Enthusiasm powers the world.

 

Craig Anderton's Archiving Article

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bombastique

 

I would love to see your test data. I have heard these kind of statements for years. Unfortunately the term "real world" becomes the out for the results. The fact is that depending on the test, the results will be different. If you know in advance what results you want it is usually easy to get them. Please don't bother sending me links to pro mac web sites. These tests are so skewed. I use Macs and they are great. So I need no convincing. They are simply not the, be all - end all, solution to anyones needs

 

I decided to answer the original question as it relates to the 001. So I would like an answer from you. If all things where equal and both are stable, then how would you advise someone who has stated they would prefer to save some money? I have no agenda in this. I could care less about which computer they choose. The point is both will work if you follow the guidelines.

 

I walked into this one knowing full well it was a setup for the old "Mac's are better than PC's" debate. ( I'll also state up front that I suspect a set up. The user name sounds like fake and with a musicplayer email address I have suspicions) I have always hated these debates as they are so subjective and fiction is put forth as fact. I made no such claims. I only said you can run into trouble with both. I just shared a little information and some first hand knowledge. I gave some usefull advice based on the question as given. It was stated that they are leaning torwards the PC so I thought what I had to say might be helpful.

 

 

Don

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OOooh, this is getting interesting. Acusations of false names and skewed data.

 

Mac people will always say mac. Windoze will say windoze. Do you have friends you will be collaborating/sharing files with? You might think about compatability with them. Windows did a great job of copying the mac interface (them's is fightin' words) and Apple did a great job of shooting themselves in the foot (wiping out clones), so they are now both very usable platforms.

 

Your boot time may vary,

 

-David R.

-David R.
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don- you are very knowledgable about pc's and macs.

 

your right about the 'real world' tests. a lot of these tests are based on the 'feel' a computer has. i know this is true, because i recently upgraded from 8.6 to 9.1 on my 8600/g3 400; i swear it feels faster.

 

its not faster. its actually slower. i timed certain things in both os's as i have a partition set with 8.6 and another with 9.1

 

but it 'feels' faster. i think it is more 'smooth' in operation now under 9.1, thereby appearing faster.

 

i think a lot of the 'feel' has to do with os. i use win95, 98, and nt at work all the time. they at work would not hear of a mac and do not understand my joy in having one.

 

win95 is probably the worst 'feeling' os ever for me.

 

98 is ok.

 

nt seems real solid, and i have never seen it crash except when the motherboard started to smoke (literally).

 

these os's are on identical machines, all networked together.

 

obviously there is far more involed here to rule out and type of concrete solution comparing these three systems on three computers.

 

windows machines almost always print when you press 'print'. even on a network it seems to be an effortless task.

 

windows machines network quite well too if you have a dr. degree in setting them up (kidding- but it can be a pain when they dont work)

 

windows machines handle small files very well.

 

macs can be finicky and temperamental (and they dont always print!)

 

oh well, i'm not sure where im going with this, but i will just say i am a die hard mac guy, but do not hate pc's. i use them; they are fine.

 

i do not want one. the machines may be ok, but man i hate windows 9x (nt is ok, have yet to use 2000).

 

i have no slots left on my mac (usb, audio card, xtra monitor)

 

i think most people should buy what their friends can help them run, if thats a pc and you have pc guys around, they LOVE to tear it apart and spend your money on stuff.

 

anyway buy BOTH. run the 001 on the mac and gigsampler on the pc.

 

have the best of both worlds.

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I have a Mac G/4 and Digi001 and it works like a charm. I work both with Macs and PC's and prefer Macs becaue their interface is more straightforward and plug and play generally works on Macs where the opposite is true on PC's. Adding peripherals to Macs (anything from printers to hard drives, digital camera's etc.) is just much easier and quicker on Macs and you don't need to be a rocket scientist to do it. I also find the MIDI setup on Macs to be much simpler. If you've got lots of patience and are a techie then you can generally get a PC to work, if not, get a Mac.
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Let us not forget the double-edged sword of OMS - ya gotta hate it, but it's better than nothing...only available on a Mac.

 

You're right, Don. I've also had too many PC/Mac debates to get into yet another one. They both can work with the right software and peripherals.

 

Maybe MY point got lost in the shuffle:

 

For the Digi001 (the original question), the Mac has at least two advantages -

 

1. the use of DirectConnect for software synths (Mac-only) and

2. the variety of plugins available (more for the Mac/PTLE).

 

For Cubase or Logic, the decision might not be as clear.

 

...and you're also right about a "baited" question from a musicplayer.com pseudonym - on their 2nd post, and no REAL email address.

 

 

 

------------------

Larry W.

Larry W.
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Hey Ange,

 

My two cents....

 

I run a 001 on a B&W G3 without a hitch, but when I also used that machine for work (browsers, media players, graphics/database/productivity apps, etc.) it was extremely unstable -- not helped at *all* by having to upgrade to 9.0.4 for USB audio.

 

I've since purchased a ThinkPad running Windows 2000 that I use for business (including graphics and Web design apps, which are very bit as good as their Mac parents these days), and stripped the Mac down to a dedicated music machine, though it still has Net connectivity to make updates easier.

 

Both computers run like butta, and I have them on a very cool Hawking Technology monitor and USB A/B switch ($99) in order to use the same monitor/keyboard/mouse with each. Both also have 256MB of RAM, but I would consider 192MB minimum for any computer on any platform these days that you're going to use for anything beyond the most basic functions.

 

I've been on Windows 2000 on various machines for about a year now, and once I learned a little Windese, I can't honestly say they're any harder to set up than Macs. Just different. (Warning: PTLE isn't compatible with W2000! Be sure to get 98 or ME if you go PC. I'm sure Digi will address this at some point since ME is the last of the non-NT systems that Microsoft will release.)

 

If you have a computer from work and can dedicate your home machine just to music and very basic browsing and email, I think it's a fine setup.

 

Let me know when your first CD is available!

 

Marv

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Larry and Don,

 

abiasi@musicplayer.com is my real email address - I work for the company (and I'm a part time musician as are practically all of the staff). I am also really building a home studio and I really am torn between Mac and PC, and I *really appreciate* the advice and support I recieve in this forum - I'm learning a lot and it's helping tremendously (thanks again). No strings, no hidden agenda, just want to make the best decision (for me, it is a serious long term investment in my music), and, I really value this function.

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Don - all things being equal, I would recommend they go with a PC, obviously. I'm not trying to come off as a Mac advocate, even though it may sound that way. I just see what happens when people with a *little* technical knowledge get behind a PC. Sure - if you've got lots of experience and are willing to put in the time, you probably will have few problems with a PC. I won't point you to any Mac advocate sites - that's not what this is about.

 

The 'real world' test I've done are simple things like how long it takes to render an effect in Photoshop, or encode an MP3 file. Granted - the Mac wasn't ALWAYS faster, but in general, everyday use the Mac performs faster than the equivalent PC. PC's are very convoluted - the registry, .dll's, files everywhere, configuration anomolies (format with /z:64 and the like), where a Mac is pretty straightforward - extentions and control panels. You know where to look for something on a Mac - not the same on a PC.

 

I'm HAPPY to recommend a PC to someone - if they have the technical know-how to keep it running properly.

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Windows NT and 2000 DO have premptive multi-tasking. Whether or not it's true multi-tasking I cannot say as I'm no expert on the subject. However, there is still no doubt in my mind that multi-tasking as we currently know it works well on a PC. I can burn CD's, surf the web, and encode MP3's all at the same time. I rarely do this sort of thing, but it's nice to know that the power is there.

 

BTW, regarding the comments about having to be an expert to properly configure a PC, I would agree with you 100% a few years ago that you had to know your stuff. But, with Windows ME and 2000 there is not really anything that I've seen necessary to tweak in order to get optimal performance. There built-in driver support is top-notch as well. I use both OS's on different systems, and I've yet to have to tweak anything. The only real trick that is usually required when setting up a DAW is making sure that your pro audio card has it's own IRQ, as most require this. This is usually a no-brainer, and 99% of IRQ problems can be solved by moving the card to a different PCI slot.

 

I have no argument about the Mac being a more eloquent OS in general and good for digital media. If you want to use Mac, then great, go for it. But don't knock a platform that you've barely used or haven't spent equal amount of time on in comparable applications. The old "I use a PC at work for business and a Mac at home for music" just isn't a fair comparison. Just my $.02.

 

-Dylan

 

Originally posted by Rader Ranch:

um, Dylan, neither PCs nor Macs are truly multi-tasking yet, though with OSX hopefully Macs will be soon. if you want True multi-tasking, find a good 7-10 year old Amiga...different windows from different apps open AND active in the Foreground at the same time...suweeet....

 

Don, do you have any Unix/Linux experience you could share with us as it could relate to OSX?

 

 

abiasi...this may be interesting link for you...

 

http://www.lowendmac.com/lab/010215.html

 

This message has been edited by Rader Ranch on 02-15-2001 at 01:20 PM

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BTW, I realized that I was off topic and did not talk about the Digi001 issue in question. I'd recommend using the Digi001 on a Mac, only because it's obvious that Digi is a Mac company. Plus, after seeing ProTools Free I'd have to say that Digi is probably the last company that I'd trust for PC audio applications. The fact that you can only use Win 98 SE and no other Windows versions should raise red flags. Every other Windows audio program on the market will run on any Win 9x/NT OS. You won't find any other PC audio program that has as stringent hardware requirements either. Good luck to you.

 

-Dylan

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Hi,

I use a mac, and depending on my mood can be quite the mac advocate or quite the mac hater.Still, with the digi 001 what you have to consider is that it just IS NOT supported as well on p.c. as on mac.

This is very important. At this time plug ins are few and far between for rtas on Pc. So, for pro tools I think the mac is a better choice.

 

As for running apps like acid and gigasampler, there are no asio, direct x, or gigasampler drivers for 001 windows. For mac the asio and mas drivers give such a lowsy performance it makes you wonder. Also digidesign has yet to support multi processer macs or AltiVec. And on PC the hardware they support is not the fastest and latest.Id say the 001 is not at the level of its competition in terms of flexability, upgradability, and perhaps even sound quality.

 

Digidesign offers little on mac or pc for host based stuff becasue they want you to buy their mix systems. Go to the DUC, the forums at their site and look under pt le for mac.On there is a thread from digi explaining how theyve had to limit some of the features to protect their business(its the one 8 pages long). From this theyve also been in NO hurry to optimise their software for any host based use beyond the basics.

 

If I may make a suggestion, it would be to NOT buy a digi 001. Dont let the internal politics of digidesign give you a system thats limited when for a similar price youll get an easily upgradable sytem made to perform optimally host based. Ive owned my 001 for months, and as nice as it is it could be better, but digidesign REFUSES to release a software that doesnt have artificial limitations.

Motu does not refuse to do this neither does steinberg, emagic, or sonic foundry.

 

Do you want the little pro tools that could, or do you want the big shebang? Id reccomend a pt mix+ in a second, but until digidesign makes good drivers for other formats, optimises theyre software for host based technologies, and makes a full featured version of pro tools for purchase on host systems I think the digi 001 doesnt stand up to its competition. The pt mix system is brilliant, but its not the same thing as the 001.

 

Still, Its what I use and it works good. If your going to get it get a mac so you can use waves plug ins and the odd soft synth. Also, youll prbably want to get another pre amp because the ones on the 001 are a bit bright. Its a nice all around system actually. If it wasnt for digidesigns attitude towards it Id reccomend it in an instant. And, pro tools is great to work with, but if your ambitious get used to bouncing to disk(only 24 tracks). Its sequencer is substandard imho, so if you go there logic audio runs nicely on the 001 as well.

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