best home setup under $10,000

[eli]

Roland VS series vs Ensoniq Paris vs Protools etc... The only thing that I want to leave home to do is MAYBE mastering.

[dansouth]

Eli,

 

That depends on your objectives and personal preferences. Computer based systems will give you more flexibility and options, but they come at the expense of being a little more complicated to set up and operate. An all in one unit like the VS recorders or competing products like the Yamaha AW4416 are easier to use for tracking and mixing, but offer less flexibility, particularly in the editing, mixing, and mastering stages.

 

I personally find recording directly into a computer to be a drag. There are a lot of synchronization and latency issues that distract from the creative flow. Many people have been using ADATs or other tape based systems for tracking, then copy tracks onto a computer for editing and mixing. Also, computer based systems are not portable. You can't throw them under your arm and go track your band at a club. Until recently, it was difficult to track more than a few tracks at a time into a computer, but faster machines have resolved that problem, pretty much.

 

Mixing on a computer can be a painful experience if you're used to dealing with real hardware faders. ProControl is VERY EXPENSIVE. Paris has a more cost effective solution, though. On the positive side, computer based systems offer plug ins galore, so you have many more signal processing options at your disposal. A card is coming out this summer that will enable Waves plugins to be run on the AW4416, and I'm sure that we'll see more developments in that direction.

 

Another consideration is backups. You have to store those computer files somewhere. At the very least you'll need a CD burner and software to manage it. Also, you will run any of these systems at your own peril if you don't buy a UPS, which will keep the power running to your machine if the A/C in your building goes out. Check out the APC BackPro series. Figure all of the above into your system cost.

 

Speaking of cost, ProTools can be very expensive, way beyond what the system costs initially. I've heard tales of $60,000 to $70,000 ProTools systems when all of the options, peripherals, drives, plugins, etc. are added in. Make sure you leave enough room in your budget for mics, preamps, compressors, and a good reverb. A recorder is not going to make records all by itself.

 

Finally, you should consider the sound of each solution. ProTools has a distictive sound. The VS series has a certain flavor of sound. All systems do. I won't get into pros and cons, because it's very subjective, but don't assume that they all sound the same. There are lots of discussions on the topic already in these forums. Good luck!

[alphajerk]

roland vs and protools isnt even a comparison, neither is roland and paris.

 

roland and yamaha aw4416 yes and some other companies as well.

 

DP/logic/cubase/paris/protools/nuendo/cakewalk/et al are all similar.

 

protools or paris wont let you setup a studio for under $10k. or you will have no mics or pres to record with.

 

if i was just starting a home setup i would go with a yamama aw4416 and spend the rest on mics and pres [and cabling] and monitors. you can upgrade the aw4416 as you learn and even sync it to a computer based setup later down the road [right phil]

 

if you need midi, get a computer with one of the native packages [i use DP, other people use other things. you gotta test em out yourself] instead of PT [unless you go with the 001 but its got so many limitations to it starting with the midi]. spending the least amount possible and the rest on ADAC's, mics, pres, et al.

 

youre on a shoestring budget to start from the ground up, research hard and make every penny count and its enough to get something pretty damn great going on.

[Lee Flier]

>>if i was just starting a home setup i would go with a yamama aw4416 and spend the rest on mics and pres [and cabling] and monitors. you can upgrade the aw4416 as you learn and even sync it to a computer based setup later down the road [right phil]<<

 

I'm not Phil, but that's correct. And I would agree with what Alpha says here, that's exactly what I would do. Or rather, what I DID do. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif Had about the same budget as you, spent it on the AW4416, a few mics and pres (still plan to add more), a decent set of nearfield monitors [Event PS-5's, could have gotten bigger ones with my budget but I wanted to keep my setup portable so I can do live recordings and such), and the rest actually I spent on building the room to where it would sound good. Not acoustically perfect, but just not too live and not too dead, and no horribly obvious standing waves. I also bought a good sound card so I can do stuff on the computer if I ever want to (so far, I haven't really wanted to, the editing on the AW has been sufficient). And I also bought a drum kit that records really well - I consider it a better investment to have a good sounding drum kit than buy a whole bunch of mics, pre's, gates, etc. in order to try and make a crappy kit sound good.

 

I think with the AW, a couple of good pre's, a few decent mics and a good sounding room you have no excuse not to make good music. You can always add more frills later, but that's definitely enough to start with.

 

--Lee

[Curve Dominant]

The Roland VS890 is a great value. It's all-in-one: routing, FX, cut & paste, you name it. I've been using it's predecessor, the VS880EX, for about a year now, and it has been a $$$ maker. It depends entirely on your objective, which you may want to state more concisely if you want pin-point accuracy in the feedback you seek.

[semitone]

Ooooooook sir,here ya go:

COMPUTER(core of the whole setup):

-AMD Athlon 1Ghz on Asus A7v mother

-512 Mb RAM

-Two IBM Deskstar 60 GXP Hard Drives.A 13 GB for system files and a 30 GB for audio

-Teac CD 5040E CDROM

-Yamaha 8424 CDRW

-Matrox G450 DH Display card

-Two Sony G200 17" Monitors

-RME Digi 96/8 PSt soundcard

-Emagic AMT 4 MIDI interface

 

SOFTWARE:

-Emagic Logic Audio Platinum

-Native Instruments Pro 52 and B4

-Sonic Foundry Sound Forge

 

MONITORING:Samson Servo 160 + Yamaha NS 10 (or Spirit Absolute 2)

 

MIXER:Mackie 1202 VLZ Pro

 

MICROPHONES:

-Shure SM58

-Rode NT1

 

MIC PREAMP:Joe Meek VC1Q

 

COMPRESSOR:FNR Really Nice Compressor(x2!!!)

 

REVERB:Lexicon MPX500

 

MULTI FX:Boss VF1

 

SYNTH:Roland JV 2080

 

ENHANCER:SPL stereo Jack Vitalizer

 

HEADPHONES:Beyer DT 100

 

GUITARS:

-Fender Standard Stratocaster (+ Tech 21 Sansamp)

-Takamine Santa Fe DSF 48C

 

BASS:Fender Standard Jazz Bass

 

I don't think you'll be needing anything more for some time.

[sbrock1san.rr.com]

With that budget I would also strongly consider buying a good quality dual channel tube preamp. Digital recordings are very "clean" sounding compared to analog tape, and tube preamps will add some distortion that sounds so musical. ART Pro MP or a dbx 386 or 586 would be worth considering.

[semitone]

Sorry man,but i wouldn't consider the 386 a "good quality tube preamp".

[alphajerk]

or the ART http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif you dont need tubes either with digital, in fact they are my least favorite of my pres. although something like the digimax would be nice with its AD convertors built in and 8 channels of pre [w/2 direct lines] to start out with.

[jraffertyuswest.net]

I would recomend the mackies, and don't forget to save some money for tube traps (or facsimile) and room diffusion. I wish I had a flat listening environment.

 

-Josh.

[robotobonhome.com]

PARIS will let you do a setup under $10k cos it comes with alot of junk you'd have to buy extra like a control surface. And the expandable MEC card cage means you can add more later. $500 list price per card means you get a nice discount on em at the superstores, and the PARIS NG is extremely helpful. And it sounds absolutely amazing. STOCK

 

Good audio pc $1500

PARIS $3500 or less @ superstore x

$5000 left for mics, pres, monitors, cables, stands, etc.

 

-rob

realizing the paris argument is useless amid protools and dp fans.

[Max Ventura]

Number one thing I want to say is this:

computers will give you LOADS of problems, that can never be totally solved: they will come back everytime you add or change something in the setup. If anybody says otherwise, he's lying.

 

Stand alone systems are much more "musical", straight-ahead, and musician's friendly. Period. If anybody says otherwise, he's lying also.

 

That said, it is true that, theoretically (did I spell it right?) you can do A LOT more processing with a computer system, and you can save a lot of money if you don't step in pro-systems territory. Fact is, do you really need to do that?

 

Plus, with a computer setup you can do audio AND Midi at the same time in the same environment, whereas with stand alone systems it is not possible yet and you need an external sequencer to handle the Midi, sync'd to the audio tracker.

Guess what? I am faster at doing both jobs on two separate machines than my friend with Cakewalk Pro Audio on a Mac G4.

And my machines never crash.

 

Another very important point is this:

modern manufacturers DO NOT put out anymore products unworthy of buying in terms of sound quality. Once in the past quality differences between brands were really evident, but today it's not like that anymore.

A costly reverb like Lexicon PCM series does not sound that much better than a modern Roland, Zoom or whatever. It might DO more, maybe, but I can't guarantee on that, either. The differences today are so much more subtle that such gaps in prices are not justified anymore. And, in fact, big "fancy" brands put out a lot of inexpensive stuff using the same technology they employ on top models.

 

A lot of people still think that a record made using $ 100.000 worth of equipment will show that in the quality of the recording.

A few years ago maybe it did, but not now.

Of course, there is a difference in the music you want to do with it. If you want to record a big orchestra, you NEED a lot of high quality material. But for the average pop-rock-electronica recording, mostly anything will do, provided you are careful with levels and EQ, easy with the effects and, expecially, intelligent in doing the arrangement, which is usually the most important thing in a song after the vocals.

 

As for equipment, once you've decided, buy second-hand, and buy at sales times, and you'll make the best of your money .

 

Max

[alphajerk]

i gotta to TOTALLY disagree with that.

 

my mac doesnt crash AT ALL. [cant say that much for my windoze machines]

 

standalones are no more "musical" than DAWs, musicality is within the user not the machine. nor do they give you advanced automation or editing capabilities, which you might want... i know i do.

 

cakewalk isnt available on MAC either [unless they just wrote it], its a Windoze based DAW.

 

reverbs very GREATLY between a cheap zoom and a high end lexi {although i hear MAS [DP] is getting a sampling reverb}. i mean MASSIVE difference, but at first you dont need to spend all your money one a great reverb, a lexi 500 will sound better than a zoom and for not much $ more.

 

and yes, talent on a level field, more expensive equipment will yield better results. in other words dont buy cheap just to have sometimes, you'll regret it later down the road [i speak from experience many times over].

 

dont go into a store and expect the salesweasel to help you pick out a proper studio, they will just help you spend you $$$. research EVERY item carefully and its competitors and bring a list of what you want and say whats your best deal, $10k should get you a pretty good discount.

[sbrock1san.rr.com]

alphajerk-

 

You don't NEED tube preamps but I just think you are limitimg yourself by not having at least one. I know the whole tube thing is up for debate....someone should start a thread about that.

 

Same with tube compressers. If you are recording bass or guitar without one then you are missing out on something special. Do I even have to list how many classic recordings were made with tubes in the signal path.

 

Semitone- didn't you just recommend the Rode NT-1 and Mackie 1202. I wouldn't call those good quality either....decent, but why not step up to an AT-4050 and a Presonus MP-20 with that budget.

 

 

 

 

This message has been edited by SteveRB on 02-07-2001 at 11:12 AM

[Max Ventura]

alpha-

I am a dealer, I own or have owned a lot of equipment including those I mentioned, and I'd like to know exactly where the difference stands: i mean, exactly. Take a new Zoom RFX2000 and a Lex PCM- tell me where exactly you recognize one or the other.

In the past, this difference was that the cheaper reverbs had a scaled decay (decaying in a very grainy way) but that does not happen anymore. Today, differences are more in the implementation (balanced ins/outs, programming options) than in the sound.

That is not to say that a $100.000 SSL console sounds the same as a Behringer 8-channel. I'd be stupid to say that. What I'm sayin is that nowadays:

A) the music production techniques have become much more street-wise and hi-fi recording is not limited anymore to expensive gear. Also, you are allowed a bigger sonic palette than before to experiment with.

B) the industry has streamlined the technology and they proceed side-by-side.

C) nobody's going to hear the difference ON A RECORD between a $ 5000 reverb and a $ 300 one. Nobody, ever. Not Roger Nichols, not Craig, nobody. In a studio environment, maybe, but not on a record.

D) If you say that computer setups are as musician-friendly as stand-alones you have never used standalones, but I really doubt that, so why would you say that? And if you go on VS or AW type of equipment, advanced editing and automation is definitely there. I know I have it on my VS1680.

 

 

As far as the Cakewalk thing goes, you're right. He has 7 computers in his graphic design firm, and that wasn't a Mac, but a P3 800 . Still.

[dansouth]

Originally posted by SteveRB:

You don't NEED tube preamps but I just think you are limitimg yourself by not having at least one. I know the whole tube thing is up for debate....someone should start a thread about that.

 

Same with tube compressers. If you are recording bass or guitar without one then you are missing out on something special. Do I even have to list how many classic recordings were made with tubes in the signal path.

 

Is the LA-2A a tube unit? I think it's solid state, as is the UREI 1176. The LA-2A is the de facto standard for bass. The Bass Pod has an LA-2A emulation effect. I use solid state Distressor and Meek units, and I prefer them on most material to the Avalon VT737SP.

 

A tube compressor or preamp is a BIG investment for $10k studio, because the cheap ones don't cut it. If it were me, I'd wait and add these bells and whistles later, after I had all of the essential stuff in place, working, and (most importantly) figured out.

 

Max, I have to disagree. Put a Lexicon 300 next to a Quadraverb, and I'll tell the difference ten times out of ten. On the other hand, I've heard that the Lexicon 500 is excellent and very inexpensive. The gap is closing.

[robotobonhome.com]

Two points on the audio quality between different boxes:

 

1. You're paying for the DSP algorithms, which are absolutely different from manufacturer to manufacturer due to copyright/patent laws.

 

2. You're buying the name. Which gets more clients, Zoom or Lexicon? I mean sheesh Lexicon is like saying Lexus. Zoom is like saying Corola.

 

It's true though that the actual differences in hardware like DSP chips, etc. is minimal. Most developers don't want to reinvent the wheel. It's not cost effective. Lexicon however develops their own devices, which would pass the R&D buck on you the customer.

 

-rob

 

This message has been edited by robotobon@home.com on 02-07-2001 at 02:31 PM

 

This message has been edited by robotobon@home.com on 02-07-2001 at 11:08 PM

[sbrock1san.rr.com]

dansouth-

 

I kind of agree that the LA-2A is a standard. It is an optical TUBE compresser. Some will just consider it a limiter. I stand by my statement that tubes are on tons of great recordings.

 

I use the Bass Pod too and I love that compresser model too. Just turn the knob and it's works.

[dansouth]

Steve,

 

Thanks for setting me straight on the LA-2A, but my position on the budget issue remains. An LA-2A retails for over three grand. A Meek VC3Q for has an MSRP of $399. Now, I'm the LAST person who will suggest that there's no difference, but for a startup studio on a strict budget, $3k is a lot to spend on a single channel of compression. As soon as he can afford it, though, he's not going to regret buying an LA-2A or a comparable unit.

[Anderton]

>> ) nobody's going to hear the difference ON A RECORD between a $ 5000 reverb and a $ 300 one. Nobody, ever. Not Roger Nichols, not Craig, nobody. <<

 

Not sure about that. If it's a country and western song with prominent vocal, reverb sound quality makes a major difference. And I can DEFINITELY pick out an acoustic reverb chamber vs. a digital unit. The cheapest acoustic reverb space (e.g., the elevator shaft at Capitol records) will wipe the most expensive digital delay any day...that is, unless you need to make an adjustment...

 

As to cheapo reverbs, sometimes you'll find those "magic presets." On my Forward Motion CD, I used two reverbs, a MIDIverb II and a PCM-70 (state of the art at the time I was doing the CD). A friend was listening to one of the tunes, which had a reverb and a chorusing sound. He commented on the reverb: "Wow, it sure makes a difference using the PCM-70!" Only thing was, I used the MIDIverb for the reverb, and the PCM-70 for the chorusing. In this one particular case, I couldn't find a reverb in the PCM-70 that sounded as good as preset #23 in the MIDIverb II. No kidding!!

 

Best digital reverb sound I've ever gotten was tapping off the stereo returns, feeding them to my Hot Springs reverb (the weird design that uses hot-rod pickup techniques to cancel out "boings" and increase level), and bringing the spring reverb outputs back into the console at a really low level. Laugh all you want, but those who have tried it agree that it beats the hell out of using digital reverb by itself.

 

As to the $10K - don't spend it all at once. Get your multitrack recording system figured out, then decide whether a hot shot compressor, reverb, or whatever is more important to you. Frankly, these days I hardly use reverb AT ALL. I'm really gravitating toward that "in your face" sound.

[alphajerk]

zoom is more like a kia or a yugo. and no offense but if i walked into your store and you told me that they were comparable i woud walk right out.

 

but certainly dont spend $$$ on a high end if you cant hear the difference, when you can you will willingly shell out your $$$ to get it. schwag and kind will both get you high but one is a DEFINATE better buzz.

 

and yes, they are still grainy... less but still grainy. but you are right to a sense where the low end is just getting better and better, i would not be complaining getting into recording these days, the power you have now! shit i feel old [even though im not] with what i used to use when i first got into it. kids dont know how good they have it.

[Max Ventura]

Alpha & Craig-

That comes close to what I meant originally.

Low-end companies are getting better and better, and high end ones are putting out a lot of budget models that take advantage of the tecnology involved in bigger units. The gap is closing, and I think it's quite stupid today to spend figures over the 3K on a piece of equipment, any piece, unless it's the main multitracker/mixing board setup.

However, that of course depends on the following:

-if you (the buyer) are setting up your home/project studio or you are from a commercial studio (which hasn't too many budget costraints)

-the kind of music you aim to produce (studios geared towards rap/hip hop will hardly track a full orchestra, and vice-versa)

-if you are a me & my mates only type of affair (like mine is) or you plan to advertise as a regular commercial facility (in which case you might want to impress your customers with one or two very famous -and very visible- pieces of gear)

-the degree of involvement you plan to have on it (if you can work on your music only bet. 2 and 4 a.m. better if you forget the fancy mic)

 

And Alpha, if you walked in my store I'd treat you to a blind test.

My blind tests are infamous.

Only two people ever spotted the right machine, and I supect it was just out of probability count.

[Ex]

I agree with Craig. I would suggest that you buy things in pieces. I would buy the best basic computer rig w/ the main recording software (e.g. Emagic Logic Audio OR the main standalone recorder) FIRST along with a basic mixer (a Mackie 1202 is hard to beat @ ~$325), perhaps a mic (e.g. AT4050). Figure this system out and THEN buy the extra items (outboard mic pres, compressors, more mics, plugins, FX processors, etc) as you go. Your choice of recording platform (DAW, standalone- tape or disk, Analog tape) will be difficult enough to research for your first "buy". It would be wise to give yourself time to properly research and tweak the main system. This approach would also give you an opportunity to isolate problems and make fixes easier, because you will have a more limited number of possible problem sources in the signal path. Simply put, I have found that it is easier and faster to gain mastery with a limited amount of equipment than to try to learn everything at once.

 

Rev E

[jso6mailcity.com]

10,000 U.S.$$, Let me see? A works G4 is about 150,000 pesos here (but using an ordinary re-(non Apple) 21"monitor) which is about $3,000, without the audiomedia cards etc, I have a PIII 700mhz clone overclocked to 1050mhz, with 256mb PC133ram, 10gb seagate cheetah scsi drive, w/ 80gb maxtor ATA100, Asus CUSL2 ATA100 motherboard, 12x DVD rom, 21" monitor, all for the sum of 70,000 pesos or $$1300.Add a 12x8x32x CDwriter @ 10,000 pesos or $200 using $0.35 CDs . Running 32 mono tracks of SF Vegas w/ an average of 2 to 3 plugins per track it doesn't skip a beat. Another $1200 for the 10in10out MOTU, $2,000 for Vegas and plugins, that takes care of my recorder. However the real kickers are the Mackie 24-8 bus Board, Focusrite pres(the best of the mid-price), mikes (definitely includes a Neumann or AKG for vocals/acoustic, plus the various other mikes including Sennheisers, Beyers or Audio technica) ,2 compressors,2 Lexicon PCM 80 or comparables, Mackie monitor speakers, good quality snakes with neutrik connectors, Aircon, Sound booths etc. etc., I don't think you can build a Mac-based studio (pro tools) for $10k. Detail your priority equipment first, most importantly, a good board, Preamps, good mikes, good cables, good sound booths, compressors and reverbs you can skimp a little bit, but the former,don't ever!!! You'll have a hard time going wrong with a quality board, pres, and mikes, if so, your in the wrong business. For $10k you'll probably settle for the VS series or Windows-based and pay good money for the essential stuff eith a business plan to upgrage to Pro tools or Mac in the future. Remember you can already run Emagic and Cubase VST in windows so it won't be hard for you to work those programs in case you can get a MacG4 but can,t afford Pro tools and settle for MOTU which is cross platform.

[Guest]

I can't believe the Digi001 hasn't been suggested yet, so I'm throwing it in.

 

Combined with a G4/733 or whatever G4 you can get for your buck, this lil unit will crank, and you can save your projects and have them opened up on a Mix+ at larger facilities 'round your area.

 

Combined with Waves, a coupl'a Bombfactory's and maybe Kind of Loud's True Verb it really is possible to attain quality productions.

 

OK.. I may be biased, coming through the ranks, starting with a PT3 core to a Mix+ over the years. BUT... I use a 001 at home as pre-prep and it is a damn good unit for the bucks. Even better when you consider that it blows away the PT3 core setups of just a few years ago (minus the SMPTE of course).

 

Set it up with a lil Soundcraft Folio/Mackie etc, and some half decent monitors, and you'll have your set-up for your $10,000.

 

I know people are gonna say MOTU this/Emagic that etc, but have a look and make up your own mind. Sure, Digidesign have a distasteful monopolistic attitude, but their product rocks.

 

Just my Aussie 2c, which by current conversions is about half a US cent http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif

 

Cheers

 

Rick

 

http://rickwade.iuma.com

 

 

 

This message has been edited by rickwade70@hotmail.com on 02-08-2001 at 07:34 PM

[dansouth]

Originally posted by rickwade70@hotmail.com:

Combined with a G4/733 or whatever G4 you can get for your buck, this lil unit will crank

 

I wouldn't drop $4000USD on a G4/733 + monitor. The less expensive G4's are powerful enough, offer the same 4 PCI slots, the same 133MHz system buss, and you can get one with a nice monitor for $2100 to $2200. The 733 will drop at least a grand of its value in six months. It's 40% of your budget, and it's overkill. Leave it for the "gotta have the best to impress my friends" crowd, or wait until Christmas...

[BK_dup2]

Yo Rick,

 

I'm with ya buddy. Digi 001 has been great - and you are correct mentioning it will always cause the DP - Logic fellas to throw rocks. Thats ok though - to each his own. For my money the 001 has been great. I have also had the best luck with their tech support. The rep is always helpful and sharp. I cannot say the same about my experience with Steinberg.

 

I had 10k

 

I would buy.

 

-G4 400 - (256megs,two 20gig Fireballs) w/ 19"montior

-Digi 001 - w/ plugs (bombfactory, waves)

-Firewire 4X CD burner (your choice)

 

-Event 20/20 montitor (very nice for the $$$$)

-Yahmaha EX5 or Korg Trinity/Triton.

-Access Virus

 

-8-10 Sample / Loop Discs of you choice (Spectrasonics,etc)

-Line6 POD Pro

-Line6 Bass Pod Pro

-Joe Meek VC3Q

-Used ADAT (for track transfers or more audio tracks)

-JL cooper Data sync.

-Marshall MXL 2003 condender

-Oktava Small and larger Diaphram condensers

 

This should total somewhere around 10,000 - 11,000K

 

Just my take...

BK

[BP3]

Originally posted by argomax:

Another very important point is this:

modern manufacturers DO NOT put out anymore products unworthy of buying in terms of sound quality.

A costly reverb like Lexicon PCM series does not sound that much better than a modern Roland, Zoom or whatever.

Max

 

Wrong. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif

[dansouth]

I hesitate to recommend a computer to Eli without knowing what he's planning to do. If he wants to record acoustic guitar and vocal demos, or if he wants to record his band live, a computer is the wrong way to go.

 

Sample loops? That's a very specific product that may serve him well or may not fit his plans at all. I've never used a sample loop. Some people love them, but my ideas develop from the ground up. I can't jump into someone else's loop, add some layers and call it my own composition. Eli should try out products like this before he invests in a big, expensive setup geared to a specific technology.

[Philip OKeefe]

Originally posted by alphajerk:

roland and yamaha aw4416 yes and some other companies as well.

 

DP/logic/cubase/paris/protools/nuendo/cakewalk/et al are all similar.

 

if i was just starting a home setup i would go with a yamama aw4416 and spend the rest on mics and pres [and cabling] and monitors. you can upgrade the aw4416 as you learn and even sync it to a computer based setup later down the road [right phil]

 

if you need midi, get a computer with one of the native packages [i use DP, other people use other things. you gotta test em out yourself] instead of PT [unless you go with the 001 but its got so many limitations to it starting with the midi]. spending the least amount possible and the rest on ADAC's, mics, pres, et al.

 

youre on a shoestring budget to start from the ground up, research hard and make every penny count and its enough to get something pretty damn great going on.

 

 

Okay, I *am* Phil. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif (Hi Lee!)

 

Alpha's correct - the AW4416 is a pretty smokin' unit, as Dansouth and Lee Flier can attest to. And if there's anyone who's expanded it or is using it in a more complex setup than I am, I'm not aware of them. Mine has two 8 channel expansion cards onboard, which link up with a computer DAW and two 20 bit ADAT machines. I can get 40 tracks with the exisiting system - with each track on its own automated fader with onboard 4 channel para EQ and dynamics processing. If I submix things in Logic Platinum or Vegas Audio (just upgraded from Vegas Pro last night), I can get even more tracks. I'm even considering adding a second AW to the setup and cascading them together.

 

The onboard preamps are quite good, and the EQ is not too bad either. The two onboard effects units aren't bad, but you really need to go beyond the presets to get the most out of them. Waves (yeah, the plug in company) is working on a expansion card with ADAT lightpipe I/O PLUS lots of their great effects and processors.

 

It's only 48 KHz max sample rate, but it is capable of 24 bit recordings, without any of the Roland style data compression. No flames please, the Roland's are also pretty cool, I just prefer Yamaha's converters, lack of data reduction algorithms and preamps. YMMV.

 

I agree with Lee (as I often do) the AW is capable of fully professional recording quality - if the *operator* is up to the task.

 

I also agree with Alphajerk regarding the value of good outboard preamps and compressors. Not because you *have* to have them, but because they give you more tonal options. Same thing for getting some good mics. The chain is only as strong as the weakest link, and if you record with a $39 Rat Shack mic, you can't expect any system to give you a pristine recording. Fortunately, there's lots of good mics and good values out there right now - I really think that this is "the golden age of the microphone".

 

Eli, I have no idea what types of music you do and I have no idea of how proficient you are with computers, so I really can't give you hard and fast suggestions. But since I was mentioned in regard to the AW, I'll give you some suggestions based around one:

 

AW4416 w/2 MY8-AT adat lightpipe cards and internal HDD and CD-RW = about $3,500.00

 

Presonus Digimax 8 channel preamp with digital lightpipe I/O = About $1,200.00

 

Joe Meek VC3Q preamps / compressors / EQ. I paid about $400 for a pair, and consider it the best bang for the buck, cheap purchase I've made in a long time. If you can swing a little extra, get a pair of Summit TLA 50 compressors instead of (or better yet, in addition to ) the Meeks. They'll set you back about $1,200 a pair.

 

Pair of powered nearfield monitors of your choice. I personally use Event 20/20's, but there's lots of good nearfields out there. Let's budget about $1,000 for these, although you might find some you like for less.

 

Mics - are you doing live drums? Let's make that an assumption. So, I'd suggest you get 5 of the "eighth wonder of the world" - Shure SM-57's. New, you can expect to pay about $90 each for them, so I'd say you're looking at about $450 for 5 of them. You'll need a pair of good small diaphram condensers, and for good bang for the buck, I'll recommend Octava MK012's. Pretty darn good sound for about $300 a pair. You'll want a good kick drum mic, so you'll need either an AKG D-112, a Sennheiser 421 or a E/V RE-20. Personally I like the RE20, but it is the most expensive of the three, and you're on a tight budget. Get the 421. It's pretty versatile, and will set you back about $375.00. Okay, now we get into religion! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif You'll need a good large diaphram condenser. Choices and opinions abound. Rode NT1's are good if the budget is *really* tight (about $180 each) or you can move more upscale and get an AKG C-414 or a Neumann TLM 103. Fletcher at Mercinary Audio (a regular poster here) can sell you one of these for $800.00. A great mic and a good deal. So for budget calculations, let's assume that will be our choice, but your choice will depend on your needs and preferences. And before Mark (or anyone else asks) NO YOU CAN'T HAVE MY TELEFUNKEN ELAM 251 E's! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

 

Okay, with everything on the list we've talked about (except for the Summit Comps) we're at about $8,025.00. That leaves about two grand. Things are getting tight!

 

You'll need some cables and stands. I'd budget about $500.00 more for this stuff. That leaves about $1,500.00.

 

This is where I run into a brick wall because I don't have enough info from you Eli. What type of room are you setting this all up in? How are the acoustics? IMO, Acoustics are *critically* important to getting good sounds and to making good mixes. If the acoustics of the room are lying to you, then how can you know what you're recording or mixing? Nearfield monitoring can help, but if your acoustics are really bad you are in trouble. This is an issue that many people fail to address. There's lots of good books out there, and if you need any help, drop me a private email about the room - exact dimensions, locations of doors and windows, construction (brick/drywall/plaster, whatever) and I'll give you some suggestions. Don't just slap up a room full of 2" foam and think you're there. That will help the mids and highs, but do nothing for the bass frequencies and you can end up worse off than you started. 2" compressed fiberglass is cheaper and more effective, and I can also give you some details on bass trapping, etc. but I *have* to have more details before I can help here. Let's budget about $500 for acoustical treatment, although that might be *way* too low depending on your needs.

 

There's several things I have left off. Computer system - I'll assume you have one that's suitable. Make it as fast as you can, get a second hard drive to use just for audio, and get a good multitrack audio program. I use Logic Platinum, but that's expensive. I also use Vegas, and that's not cheap either. Cool Edit pro isn't so bad and is pretty cheap. There's cheaper versions of Logic available (silver and gold) and they might be great choices for you. Sonar loks good too, but will cost as much as Logic. Let's assume you get Logic Gold and spend about $400 on that. If you don't do MIDI stuff, you can just get Vegas and spend abut the same.

 

You'll need a good multichannel audio card for the computer - I'd suggest Frontier Designs Dakota. Their customer support is *outstanding* (I speak from experience) and that card gives you 2x2 MIDI I/O and 16 channels of ADAT lightpipe I/O (to plug your AW4416 into - that's why I suggested adding the option cards to the AW). Plan on spending about $425 for this card. It comes with a 12 stereo (or mono) channel version of Cool Edit Pro, which is a pretty good little audio editor, but alas, not a MIDI sequencer, so if you get short on funds, that program might suffice for a while if you don't need the MIDI sequencing.

 

Do you use MIDI synths? If you do, I'll assume that you already have them, and they're not part of the recording system budget.

 

If you've been adding all of this up, we're at about $9,350.00. You've got $650 left. You can get a outboard reverb unit to supplement the onboard units in the AW4416, use it for extra acoustical treatment, put it into your computer system, whatever.

 

If you shop around and get good deals (and buy *some* of this stuff used) you can save money off of the prices I mentioned, but this is only a guideline. This basic system is something you can do great work on, and will have to make no apologies for the sonics of the final result - IF (big "if") you're willing to educate yourself and become good at recording.

 

This is a great place to start. Keep asking questions. As you can see, we all *love* spending other people's money! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif

 

 

Phil O'Keefe

Sound Sanctuary Recording

Riverside CA

http://members.aol.com/ssanctuary/index.html

email: pokeefe777@msn.com