Lee Flier Posted February 4, 2001 Share Posted February 4, 2001 Seems like lately I've been going through a period where a lot of new ideas for songs are springing into my head at a rapid rate. And of course, the age old problem is that I'm often not in a place or time where I can immediately go and record the idea, so the result is sometimes that by the time I can get to it, I've forgotten it. Part of the problem is that I don't always get vocal ideas first, so it's not like I can just carry a microcassette recorder everywhere and sing ideas as they come. In fact sometimes I'll be in the middle of a recording session, so the idea almost immediately gets obliterated by whatever I'm recording! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif Or I'll be in a restaurant and they'll be playing music (usually really bad music) and that will knock the idea out of my head. Song ideas can be so fragile sometimes. What do you songwriters do to make sure you don't lose that killer idea? --Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robotobonhome.com Posted February 4, 2001 Share Posted February 4, 2001 I feel your pain Lee. Often in the middle of fleshing out an idea, a subtle harmonic overtone will pop in my head, and by the time i try to figure what it is and how to play it, it's gone. Very frustrating indeed. What works best for me is to name the phrase by it's mood, rhythm and tonal charactor. Make a memorable sentance from the line. Last night I was goofing around with Zepplin type grooves. Then I randomly hit a chord which in context to the Zep type grungy riff comes out harmonically rich. It reminds me a bit of the Radiohead tune 'Just' (Bends), they breakdown into this neato jazzy latinish thing for the guitar solo. I named the part '{6/8feel} (G)Don't (G)run (F#)a (E)way (F#)on (C#)me' cos it fits the rhythm, tone and color of the rest of the tune. Sort of darker cobalt blue and a bit of violet. The tuning is A(1oct.down) A(normal) Db A Db E. I don't know if I've helped. -rob This message has been edited by robotobon@home.com on 02-04-2001 at 03:31 PM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
not Cereal Posted February 4, 2001 Share Posted February 4, 2001 i carry a MD recorder. even if its not a vocal part, i sing it anyway. "shugga chunk bahda BUM" for a guitar line etc. "doogadagodaba" makes for a good tom fill. i am dead serious. i lost the best ideas before i started doing this. *now i wonder if i should assemble a tune out of the mouth-drums takes of my MD...that would be funny... i wil usually slop a line into protools later when i can, just to capture the raw idea befor it gets practiced to death. later, i listen to it back after messing up the idea with thinking. often times, the raw idea will have much more meaning. then i can back up a few steps to recapture the intention. i can no longer imagine working any other way. www.mp3.com/xtac *where evil is second nature Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tedster Posted February 5, 2001 Share Posted February 5, 2001 Usually my ideas are some melodic phrase...once in a while a riff, but usually something I can hum. If I'm away from a tape deck, like I know I oughta have a dictaphone microcassette...I'll hum the thing over and over until I get to a recorder. I find that the ideas I think are really good that I lose tend to come back. It's like they're nudging you...y'know. "Cisco Kid, was a friend of mine" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Studio Pet-Rock Posted February 5, 2001 Share Posted February 5, 2001 Everytime I get an idea, I call home & sing onto my answering machine. Much easier than carrying around a micro cassette. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
not Cereal Posted February 5, 2001 Share Posted February 5, 2001 what if you answered the phone by mistake? then the idea may be lost forever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 5, 2001 Share Posted February 5, 2001 Hey Lee I also feel your pain, best thing i've come accross is to hum it into a dictaphone or play it straight onto a new track on the session I'm working on. These ideas go so fast that I will stop what I'm doing to make sure that the idea goes down before I forget it. Then at the end of the session I transfer it to an ideas session that I keep in pro tools just for that purpose. Warmest regards Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trick fall Posted February 5, 2001 Share Posted February 5, 2001 If the ideas good I'll remember it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
not Cereal Posted February 5, 2001 Share Posted February 5, 2001 famous last words Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 5, 2001 Share Posted February 5, 2001 I had a great idea for this thread. Unfortunately, while waiting for this page to load, I forgot it... http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip OKeefe Posted February 5, 2001 Share Posted February 5, 2001 Lee: I either write it down (notation) or I use a Rat Shack Optimus DR-100 digital recorder (microcassette replacement). People look at you kinda funny as you're sitting in the resturant or whatever as you sing the guitar parts into it, but that's their problem. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif BTW, even though this is a non-tape based recorder, the sound really sux. There's a pretty fierce wobble (wow and flutter on a DIGITAL?) on playback, but it gets the job done. Just an idea scratchpad so I don't forget things. As far as background music distracting you and making you lose the idea, I feel your pain and have no solution other than to plug your ears while humming the idea to yourself over and over while you try (with both hands occupied by having fingers in your ears) to get the recorder out and sing into it. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif I have perfect pitch, and it's really hard for me to think of one completely different melody / rhythm part while hearing a completely different song. My ears are naturally "drawn" to the key of the song I'm hearing and it drives me NUTS. I literally have to concentrate, acknowledge the "actual" key of the song (or idea) I'm thinking of and mentally transpose it to the same key as the background song that I'm physically hearing. Then I'm okay. It's really strange I know, but that's what I do. Another strange thing: Songs "in the cracks" (ie 1/2 way between say F and F#) don't bother me. I know what's going on, accept it and it doesn't really bother me after that. Weird. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif Phil O'Keefe Sound Sanctuary Recording Riverside CA http://members.aol.com/ssanctuary/index.html email: pokeefe777@msn.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulferpacific.net.sg Posted February 5, 2001 Share Posted February 5, 2001 I used to keep singing the ideas to myself until I could reach a recorder. Not efficient. Then I got a recording walkman that I carried around me with me all the time. Much better. Now I've got a minidisk player with a little stereo T-mic. Smaller, plus instant access to any track - better again. Sometimes those ideas come back on their own, sometimes they don't. You gotta net 'em when they show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tedster Posted February 5, 2001 Share Posted February 5, 2001 >>Sometimes those ideas come back on their own, sometimes they don't. You gotta net 'em when they show. ALways the best idea...and Khan...ROFL...! "Cisco Kid, was a friend of mine" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chip McDonald Posted February 5, 2001 Share Posted February 5, 2001 Does anybody use one of those little keychain-sized digital recorders? I keep meaning to buy one, but... "!" I do the answering machine thing now and then, but that's still too unwieldy... http://www.mp3.com/chipmcdonald Guitar Lessons in Augusta Georgia: www.chipmcdonald.com Eccentric blog: https://chipmcdonaldblog.blogspot.com/ / "big ass windbag" - Bruce Swedien Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anderton Posted February 5, 2001 Share Posted February 5, 2001 Got a Casio "Easy Rec" Databank watch last year, and you can record 30 seconds worth of bad-sounding (but useable) voice. I've used it a few times to record memorable melody lines. It's also good for recording your parking space number when you're in some huge garaage... Sometimes though I get really hard-assed about the subject, and figure that if I can't remember a melody line, lyric fragment, or chord progression, it is by definition not memorable, and therefore probably not worth bothering with. Craig Anderton Educational site: http://www.craiganderton.org Music: http://www.youtube.com/thecraiganderton Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/craig_anderton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Flier Posted February 5, 2001 Author Share Posted February 5, 2001 >>Sometimes though I get really hard-assed about the subject, and figure that if I can't remember a melody line, lyric fragment, or chord progression, it is by definition not memorable, and therefore probably not worth bothering with.<< Good point, but then why is it that a lot of the stuff I think of that I feel is utter crap, is the stuff that sticks in my head? http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif Seriously though, song ideas can come froma pretty subliminal place anyway, not to mention that it's the first time you're "hearing" the song. The first time you hear someone else's song on the radio, it might be really great and memorable but if you hear 20 other songs right after it, plus you have to go to a meeting or a session that day, you might well forget how the song went a few hours later - until you (hopefully) hear it again. And let's not forget that Keith Richards woke up one night in a hotel room on the road, stumbled to his guitar and his portable cassette recorder (which was a brand new thing at the time), stuck down the riff to "Satisfaction" and went back to sleep. We'd probably never have had that song otherwise because he'd never have remembered it if he hadn't played it back the next day. And how memorable is THAT riff? http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif Forgot about those little digital recorders, maybe I'll try one, the quality may suck but I'm sure it doesn't suck any worse than Keith's cassette. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif --Lee This message has been edited by Lee Flier on 02-05-2001 at 01:24 AM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbrock1san.rr.com Posted February 5, 2001 Share Posted February 5, 2001 Those digital mini-recorders distort too easy for quick guitar or piano recording. I keep a cheap Radio Shack portable cassette recorder nearby. Tape is cheap and all I have to do is hit record and I let it run while I play. Then if I capture a magic bit or two, then I turn on my studio stuff and lay something down while it' still fresh in my head. It's a $20 investment but lately it's been priceless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anderton Posted February 5, 2001 Share Posted February 5, 2001 >>And let's not forget that Keith Richards woke up one night in a hotel room on the road, stumbled to his guitar and his portable cassette recorder (which was a brand new thing at the time), stuck down the riff to "Satisfaction" and went back to sleep. We'd probably never have had that song otherwise because he'd never have remembered it if he hadn't played it back the next day. And how memorable is THAT riff?<< More trivia: the guitar into to Street Fightin' Man was taken from a cassette rough. Apparently they were never able to duplicate the sound. you can hear the tape change pitch during the riff!! Craig Anderton Educational site: http://www.craiganderton.org Music: http://www.youtube.com/thecraiganderton Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/craig_anderton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Flier Posted February 5, 2001 Author Share Posted February 5, 2001 Actually the guitars on Street Fightin Man and Jumpin Jack Flash were all acoustics put through a cassette. The only electric instrument on SFM was the bass, and there isn't even a real drum kit on it. Charlie apparently had this folding little practice kit which he used on that, and the drum sound on the record is just huge. That record definitely made me a believer in "smaller is bigger" when it comes to recording! --Lee, S.D. (Doctor of Stones-ology) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 5, 2001 Share Posted February 5, 2001 How about a songwriters forum? That would be cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tedster Posted February 5, 2001 Share Posted February 5, 2001 I second that motion... "Cisco Kid, was a friend of mine" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 5, 2001 Share Posted February 5, 2001 I third that? Motion Carried? Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dansouth Posted February 6, 2001 Share Posted February 6, 2001 I take the ultra-low tech approach of writing it down. I've developed a shorthand notation for melodies and bass lines that can be used on any plain sheet of paper. I'll write the rhythm in standard notation - quarter notes, eighth notes, rests, etc. Below each note I write the number of the tone within the scale. For example, in C major, C = 1, D = 2, G = 5, Eb = b3, etc. If applicable, I jot lyrics under the notes and may some add chords above the melody line. Chords are also based on numeric representations of scale tones (iim7, V7, IMAJ7, etc.). The notation is key independent - I'll select a key that fits later. It's quick and simple. I don't need a notebook or a telephone or a tape recorder - just a pen, which I could even borrow in a pinch. I can jot ideas on any scrap of paper that's handy. I often reach into my wallet for an Mac or credit card receipt. Most ideas remain undeveloped - who has time to pursue them all? But when a really special hook or melody strikes, I'm covered, and I don't have to fret about forgetting it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
makalei Posted February 6, 2001 Share Posted February 6, 2001 A song writing forum sounds good to me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 6, 2001 Share Posted February 6, 2001 Originally posted by dansouth@yahoo.com: I take the ultra-low tech approach of writing it down. I've developed a shorthand notation for melodies and bass lines that can be used on any plain sheet of paper. I'll write the rhythm in standard notation - quarter notes, eighth notes, rests, etc. Below each note I write the number of the tone within the scale. For example, in C major, C = 1, D = 2, G = 5, Eb = b3, etc. If applicable, I jot lyrics under the notes and may some add chords above the melody line. Chords are also based on numeric representations of scale tones (iim7, V7, IMAJ7, etc.). The notation is key independent - I'll select a key that fits later. It's quick and simple. I don't need a notebook or a telephone or a tape recorder - just a pen, which I could even borrow in a pinch. I can jot ideas on any scrap of paper that's handy. I often reach into my wallet for an Mac or credit card receipt. Most ideas remain undeveloped - who has time to pursue them all? But when a really special hook or melody strikes, I'm covered, and I don't have to fret about forgetting it. Ditto- except I use an enharmonically simplified "movable do" solfeggio- do, ra, re, me, mi, fa, fi....etc. instead of numbers. Rhythms are easy because I almost invariably stumble upon ideas on long walks (yeah, yeah)- foot down, onbeat, foot up, offbeat. Obviously some rhythms have to be subdivided or otherwise differently approached for this- 6/8, the "offbeat" of the second step is the "on" of the second set of three, etc. This message has been edited by dadabobro@yahoo.com on 02-05-2001 at 05:12 PM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chip McDonald Posted February 6, 2001 Share Posted February 6, 2001 Originally posted by Anderton: Got a Casio "Easy Rec" Databank watch last year, and you can record 30 seconds worth of bad-sounding (but useable) voice. I've used it a few *Almost* bought one of those a few months ago, but bought my third Casio G-Shock instead... that if I can't remember a melody line, lyric fragment, or chord progression, it is by definition not memorable, and therefore probably not worth bothering with. Yeah, but maybe what makes something memorable is that something gets lost in the translation that is replaced by the memory of an emotion that you were having at the time you came up with a part. Not only that, but rhythmic bias shifts.... often what makes a part "magical" is microrhythmical stresses (witness a "simple" Bonham drum beat). You might remember the correct note order and phrasing, but not the rhythmic context. I think the mind's encoding process throws that away first, and then the function of "emotion" supplies the neccesary "decoding" upon retrieval. The more nuanced you get with how you percieved such a thing the more likely the nuance might not make it past the "encoding" process. Likewise, the inverse happens when you hear prepared music: that certain rhythmic nuance triggers the equivalently proper emotion. So, provided you can remember what exact mood you were in when you played something everything is fine.... $.10 http://www.mp3.com/chipmcdonald Guitar Lessons in Augusta Georgia: www.chipmcdonald.com Eccentric blog: https://chipmcdonaldblog.blogspot.com/ / "big ass windbag" - Bruce Swedien Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dansouth Posted February 6, 2001 Share Posted February 6, 2001 Originally posted by dadabobro@yahoo.com: Ditto- except I use an enharmonically simplified "movable do" solfeggio- do, ra, re, me, mi, fa, fi....etc. instead of numbers. Rhythms are easy because I almost invariably stumble upon ideas on long walks (yeah, yeah)- foot down, onbeat, foot up, offbeat. Obviously some rhythms have to be subdivided or otherwise differently approached for this- 6/8, the "offbeat" of the second step is the "on" of the second set of three, etc. Mmm, yeah, I guess it would have been easier to explain if I'd thought of using solfeggio as an example. I'm more comfortable with numeric intervals from the tonic, so that's what I use. Even when I play an instrument, I tend to lose track of key and notes and think in terms of numbers and interval patterns. When I studied sight singing, I always had to translate from the number system because I had thought in terms of numbers for so many years. "Let's see, fourth note of the major scale, oh yeah, that's 'fa'." One nice thing about numeric notation is that it doesn't change for major and minor keys. I'll jot "Major" or "Minor" at the top of my doodles, and 3, 6, and 7 take on different roles. (I always use the natural minor as my base and add accidentals for harmonic minor, dorian, etc.) Do you use "do, re, me" for minor keys, or do you use "la" as the tonic? Boy, my explanation makes this seem a lot more complicated than it really is! Someone once asserted that you can't really write about music; I'm beginning to understand their point. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip OKeefe Posted February 6, 2001 Share Posted February 6, 2001 A songwriter's forum is an excellent idea. Phil O'Keefe Sound Sanctuary Recording Riverside CA http://members.aol.com/ssanctuary/index.html email: pokeefe777@msn.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 6, 2001 Share Posted February 6, 2001 Originally posted by dansouth@yahoo.com: Do you use "do, re, me" for minor keys, or do you use "la" as the tonic? http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif Wherever the tonic of the melody is, that's my "do". This works for the individual melodies- as far as putting them all together.... Hmmm...songwriter's forum is a good idea! How about Songwriting and Composing. Writing down the rhythm is usually the most important part, I think. Sometimes I come home with scraps of paper with just rhythms notated- when I sing the rhythm out, the melody that went with it comes right back. Prokofieff, who had perfect pitch and was a child wonder, only ever got a "B" in sight-singing, and when Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau sang with a couple of the greatest violinists of this century at some gala event, he wrote in his autobiography that he had never heard so many wrong notes in his life! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif And Pinza learned everything by rote...so equating solfeggio with good musicianship is big mistake! But it helps if you don't have a portable recorder. Hey- maybe that's what all those people on the street with mobitels are doing- they're not selling drugs, they're singing next week's top 10 into their answering machines. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 10, 2001 Share Posted February 10, 2001 OK to complement on the writing things down concepts here's how I do it. As above I'll write the rythmic figure down and at the tips (where the black round notes usually go) i just write the letter of the note always using C as a root if it's a major thing and A if it's minor based . I don't have perfect pitch so it's not a problem and probably a solution that applies to the other 99 per cent of the population that are like me. So satisfaction would go A A A B C C C B B A regardless of the key. But on top of that ( to remember the mood right like someone suggested) I'll put down some stylistic and mood reference along with the tempo that I just found singing the line 4 times checking how long it lasted on my chrono watch putting the exact length down and then later on extrapolate the tempo from the length when I get to a calculator. Good ballpark. Signing the part into something still is the best solution I think. Emile Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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