alphajerk Posted February 2, 2001 Share Posted February 2, 2001 i heard women would have orgasms listening to beethoven play live. i heard bonnie raitt did when she heard hendrix. alphajerk FATcompilation "if god is truly just, i tremble for the fate of my country" -thomas jefferson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Worthington Posted February 2, 2001 Share Posted February 2, 2001 Went to hear Ladysmith Black Mambazo kick off their US tour tonight in New Orleans. Wow. I'm completely blown away by the emotional content of 10 voices up close and personal. No instruments, no autotune, just magic. Exactly what I needed to set me right. That and the big bowl of gumbo I had for dinner http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif jw Affiliations: Jambé Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Aragon Posted February 2, 2001 Share Posted February 2, 2001 "Pythagoras ( circa 6th Century BC ) taught that each of the seven planets produced by its orbit a particular note according to its distance from the still centre which was the Earth. The distance in each case was like the subdivisions of the string refered to above. This is what was called Musica Mundana, which is usually translated as Music of the Spheres. The sound produced is so exquisite and rarified that our ordinary ears are unable to hear it. It is the Cosmic Music which, according to Philo of Alexandria, Moses had heard when he recieved the Tablets on Mount Sinai, and which St Augustine believed men hear on the point of death, revealing to them the highest reality of the Cosmos. (Carlo Bertelli, Piero della Francesca) This music is present everywhere and governs all temporal cycles, such as the seasons, biological cycles, and all the rhythms of nature. Together with its underlying mathematical laws of proportion it is the sound of the harmony of the created being of the universe, the harmony of what Plato called the "one visible living being, containing within itself all living beings of the same natural order". Pythagorean A = 432 Tom Aragon Tom AragonII Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 2, 2001 Share Posted February 2, 2001 Pythagorean A = 432 That's very interesting- I had not realized that anybody had fixed this number. I assume the number was determined from physically measuring a monochord, or deduction from depictions or descriptions, because obviously it's hard to go back to the two track master! And even if you could, the experts would find a way to argue about playback-speed anyway. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif In the case of Baroque music, there are of course instruments, including organs, remaining from that era, so tunings and temperments are definitely not purely a matter of speculation- however, a "universal" A has only been with us since the 50's, back then there was a lot of variation. Of course A-415 amounts (not exactly, but close) to a downward transposition of a half-step in relation to A-440, a good compromise. The temperment is more important for the Baroque authenticity. "Blue notes" are an example of expressive alternate tuning most of us hear quite often. Another thought about the healing powers of music: David played the harp for Saul, to drive away the demons- and Saul threw his spear at David. As far as orgasms to music, I've got to spock my eyebrow about the idea of a 3-minute love song- classical love-making music, western or eastern, gives you a lot more time to get things done right. Of course if you have a Barry White album playing with about a dozen shorter tunes in a row, that's a whole other approach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 2, 2001 Share Posted February 2, 2001 I play in a neighbourhood church. I have a blast at each service (worship session). The music is very healing. The atmosphere of worship transports me out of the emotional state I was in when I arrived. There are some glorious moments of extomporaneous singing for the whole congregation. One or more of the musicians may provide a very simple harmonic "clothing" (one chord, or transition between two chords), and everybody sings on top of that. Everybody is singing a different melody, but the sum effect, is like this huge gushing waterfall, where you are just one drop of water. Sometimes people thank me after the worship session (as one of the musicians) and I always remark that I got more than I gave. It's true. I am moved to tears by some of this. It is arguable whether it is the music or the prayer. I also have been moved to tears and chuckles in live concerts (symphonic music). Never from a CD. I guess music is powerful and we are all priveleged to enjoy and share it. Cheers, Jerry This message has been edited by Jerry Aiyathurai on 02-02-2001 at 05:38 AM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip OKeefe Posted February 2, 2001 Share Posted February 2, 2001 Originally posted by SteveRB: Great singing and lyrics that resonate with me will always be more moving than pure instrumental music. The human voice and brain are the most awesome instruments ever created. Jazz enthuasists might not agree because most of it is instrumental. I have just two words for you in regards to Jazz musicians disagreeing: Ella Fitzgerald. Okay, here's two more: Billie Holiday Phil O'Keefe Sound Sanctuary Recording Riverside CA http://members.aol.com/ssanctuary/index.html email: pokeefe777@msn.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip OKeefe Posted February 2, 2001 Share Posted February 2, 2001 Originally posted by Tedster: >>Personally, most music that I truly love goes far beyond entertainment in the power it has over me. In fact I really don't listen to music to be entertained; I want to be deeply moved. I can't have music going on in the background usually, because if music is playing I have to focus on it A--MEN, SISTAH! Truth! Why is it that so many people like "wallpaper music"??? I can't relate at all... Music was designed to move emotions and spirit deeply, and as Ecclesiastes said, "A time for every purpose"...but...for me...it has to be a transport, whether I'm the one that's playing it, and copping the energy vibe from what (for me, anyway) would be a better than half assed performance, or listening, no, experiencing someone with the power to truly blow me away. I have to agree with you and Lee here Tedster. If it doesn't move me, then what's the point? I get the most enjoyment when the emotional aspects make me FEEL. As a producer, I strive for takes that FEEL good. I'll take a few technical imperfections if the feel's great. Lots of different music genres move me. Rachmaninoff's Rhapsody is so pretty it can make me cry. Bach's pure spiritualism gives me hope. There's some Beatles stuff that brings back such memories of my youth... http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif Lots of things. Again, I agree with Lee - when AC/DC comes on the radio with "You Shook Me" it makes me feel... well, let's just say raunchy. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif Since the original post asked for examples, I offer this rather pathetic one: When I was 19, I was totally in love. Ended up getting married. 9 months later (no not THAT http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif ) she left me for a former boyfriend. I was crushed and devastated. I was young and innocent then, and thought it was going to last forever, and when it didn't it really hurt. I'd never experienced anything that had hurt so much, and didn't know how I was going to get through it all. Do you all know the story behind Eric Clapton's Layla LP? You know, the George Harrison / Patti Boyd thing? Anyway, I had been given a copy of that album shortly before she left, and it was HEALING for me. Somehow, I could FEEL what Clapton had been going through at the time (when Patti left to go back to George) and with that, I realized that I wasn't the only one to ever get hurt like that, and that somehow if he could get through it, then dammit, so could I. It really helped to know that someone else (even someone I didn't know) knew EXACTLY what I was feeling and going through. It wasn't "canned" emotion - I could feel it. Besides, playing and singing along with that record and just "letting it all out" was cathartic for me. Now that I've totally embarrassed myself by airing my emotionalism, I think I'll change the topic here. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif There's another aspect of music that I have not seen anyone mention. During memorable times in my life, it always seems like there's some music that gets "imprinted" (for lack of a better word) on my brain, and hearing that song, even years later can suddenly bring all those long suppressed memories flooding back to mind. Maybe that's because I am a pretty emotional person, and approach music from such a emotional / feeling mindset. Who knows? This is a great thread! I've enjoyed reading everyone's posts. Phil O'Keefe Sound Sanctuary Recording Riverside CA http://members.aol.com/ssanctuary/index.html email: pokeefe777@msn.com PS Lee, I just tried the spell check, and it DID offer up "pokeweed" as a alternate spelling for my name. GREAT, that's all I need, a nickname like that! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip OKeefe Posted February 2, 2001 Share Posted February 2, 2001 Originally posted by Jerry Aiyathurai: There are some glorious moments of extomporaneous singing for the whole congregation. One or more of the musicians may provide a very simple harmonic "clothing" (one chord, or transition between two chords), and everybody sings on top of that. Everybody is singing a different melody, but the sum effect, is like this huge gushing waterfall, where you are just one drop of water. Sometimes people thank me after the worship session (as one of the musicians) and I always remark that I got more than I gave. It's true. I am moved to tears by some of this. It is arguable whether it is the music or the prayer. I guess music is powerful and we are all priveleged to enjoy and share it. Cheers, Jerry This message has been edited by Jerry Aiyathurai on 02-02-2001 at 05:38 AM Jerry: I used to lead worship at church, and can totally understand where you're coming from. There's no way anyone can convince me that music isn't spiritual. And the effect of hundreds or thousands (it was a BIG church) people singing their hearts out can be very moving. When I was leading worship, I always felt the job was to move people to a place where they could open their hearts and worship in their own individual (and very personal) way. It was different than doing shows or concerts. I wanted to get "out of the way" and disappear, and let them do what they came to do - worship. Preaching and evangelism and most other "church activities" will all eventually fade away, but in my beliefs, music (and worship) are going to last forever. And I agree - I always got more than I gave. As Paul McCartney pointed out, "in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make". That may be arguable philosophically, but somehow I think he wasn't too far off the mark. If you're feeling the music and worshipping, it makes things easier for them to do the same. Phil O'Keefe Sound Sanctuary Recording Riverside CA http://members.aol.com/ssanctuary/index.html email: pokeefe777@msn.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miroslav Posted February 2, 2001 Share Posted February 2, 2001 <<...I can't have music going on in the background usually, because if music is playing I have to focus on it...>> Yes, this can be true in many instances. Interesting lyrics, rippin' guitar, a good pummpin' beat...etc., can cause you to focus on the music. But, to expand on Jim Aikin's statement, music CAN be a more ambient experience and still have a powerful effect on you. I'm not talking about elevator muzak, but subconsciously, even it has an effect on us. What I really mean, is music that we allow to just "wash over us", like a delicate scent or a sunny day. You don't really "listen" to it, but you do hear it subconsciously, and it does alter and add to your mood. Yes, there are musical pieces that will draw us in and generate very strong emotional feelings, but ambient music is where the "healing" is most effective. Sort of like when treating stress, a Valium will calm you for the moment, but a change of lifestyle, subtly, over time, will make the real difference. Classical music can be a good choice for ambient listening, but I also have found that world ethnic music, where you don't understand the lyrics, works great too. African, Indian, Oriental, Aboriginal... all of these work very well. I also find that a lot of trance, dance and techno works great as ambient listening music. I still enjoy "listening" to very specific musical pieces that I do focus on, but lately, ambient listening has been a more rewarding experience. My ambient music collection has grown three times as much as my "focused listening" music collection in the last few years, and it has also gotten me out of the "American Rock" box. Haven't given any of it up, just expanded my tastes...a lot of great stuff out there. This message has been edited by miroslav on 02-02-2001 at 10:28 AM miroslav - miroslavmusic.com "Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Flier Posted February 2, 2001 Share Posted February 2, 2001 Guess I'm just strange, Miroslav. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif I listen to a ton of world music and a lot of classical too. I still feel compelled to focus on most of it. That is, unless it's totally boring music (no matter what the genre) in which case I'd rather just turn it off! --Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miroslav Posted February 2, 2001 Share Posted February 2, 2001 Originally posted by Lee Flier: Guess I'm just strange... Nah...not strange. I don't think we all need to see and hear things exactly the same way. If you find something that works for you, then that's OK!!! That is probably the hard part, identifying which things have which effect on us. Once that is discovered, you just call it up as needed and let the healing begin! miroslav - miroslavmusic.com "Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham English Posted February 2, 2001 Share Posted February 2, 2001 Depending on the music, I have a very difficult time letting it "wash over me." But I do know what that's like too. For instance, right now I'm at work and Michael Brecker's 2 Blocks From the Edge is playing. I can't stop concentrating on his playing. So I'm just holding a piece of paper in front of me with a stern look on my face (as if something isn't adding up) just in case the boss walks by. His blowing is phenomenal! By the way, that's a trick I learned from George Costanza on Seinfeld. If you always look angry, your bosses think you're working http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif Steve, I'm presently working on my music with my band, 32. Soon to be available at www.32rocks.com (sorry for the plug, y'all) One of my favorite bands that explores spirituality in their music and lyrics is LIVE. Beautiful and though-provoking stuff. Great thread! ++ Graham English ++ Ear Training, Songwriting Tips, and Music Theory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbrock1san.rr.com Posted February 2, 2001 Share Posted February 2, 2001 Phil- Most jazz music on the radio and in line venues these days is instrumental. That might have something to do with a lack of singers wanting to sing in that style, or it could be a musical trend. People still love the music even when there are no vocals, and that was the point I meant to make. I grew up listening to jazz singers because that's what my parents listened too. I watched the Ken Burns Jazz documentary recently, and it was very interesting and I recommend it to anyone that hasn't seen it. I'm not very knowledgable about American musical history but it has motivated me to learn more. SteveRB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Aikin Posted February 3, 2001 Share Posted February 3, 2001 Originally posted by pokeefe777@msn.com: If it doesn't move me, then what's the point? Define "move." Would you say a flawless game of chess is "moving"? Because clearly some people find chess deeply meaningful, though it may not be "moving" in a "visceral" sense. There is a point to playing chess, in other words (whether or not you happen to enjoy the game yourself). That being the case, I maintain that music that is fully as abstract as a game of chess can be moving in the sense we're talking about here. It doesn't have to be Schumann. It can be an aleatoric composition by John Cage. --Jim Aikin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 3, 2001 Share Posted February 3, 2001 It's really hard sometimes to keep true to the music and why we make it, when we are always being tantalized by so much new gear coming out ! Still, there are few things which move me more than being able to sit down and play my guitar as a meditation. I'm not saying my music is the only one that does this for me, but a very large part of it is the touch, feeling the body resonate against mine, while trying to capture emotion into chord and melody. I've been writing a lot of nocturnal pieces lately, and I'll tell ya taking a chord progression even as simple as C9 - Em9 and really listening to the harmonic fullness and potentials, simple two or three note melodies within the changes can send me to another time and space in no time flat ! That is how I most enjoy playing, and get the most benefit from playing, no big amps, no stinky bars, just my guitar and even 15 minutes to play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip OKeefe Posted February 3, 2001 Share Posted February 3, 2001 Originally posted by SteveRB: Phil- Most jazz music on the radio and in line venues these days is instrumental. That might have something to do with a lack of singers wanting to sing in that style, or it could be a musical trend. People still love the music even when there are no vocals, and that was the point I meant to make. SteveRB Point well taken Steve. I really enjoy instrumental music as well as vocal music. For example, Paul Desmond's tone on Brubeck's Take 5 still knocks me out - and actually, sax is my "main" instrument, or at least it used to be. That's what I studied... reeds. As far as the emotional / healing aspect of that chart, it just seems so happy. Listening to it is a good stress reducer. Makes me happy. Phil O'Keefe Sound Sanctuary Recording Riverside CA http://members.aol.com/ssanctuary/index.html email: pokeefe777@msn.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Flier Posted February 3, 2001 Share Posted February 3, 2001 Originally posted by Jim Aikin: Define "move." Would you say a flawless game of chess is "moving"? It can be, but not in the same way music can be. There is some music that is moving in the same way a great game of chess is moving (for those who deeply appreciate chess), but, that only covers about half of what music is capable of doing. Because clearly some people find chess deeply meaningful, though it may not be "moving" in a "visceral" sense. There is a point to playing chess, in other words (whether or not you happen to enjoy the game yourself). I don't doubt it... but I don't think having "a point" equates to being moving. That's still a practical/intellectual definition of "moving". If something is really moving you, you don't care whether there's a point or not! That being the case, I maintain that music that is fully as abstract as a game of chess can be moving in the sense we're talking about here. It doesn't have to be Schumann. It can be an aleatoric composition by John Cage. Sure, I agree that abstract music can be moving, but like I said, just because music CAN be moving in the same way that chess is, doesn't mean that's the only way for it to move you. I think music (and possibly dance and certain kinds of athletics, although I don't speak from experience there) is one of the few forms of expression that's capable of moving us on all levels at the same time. I've noticed that a lot of people who depend heavily on the intellect seem quite satisfied to listen to music that gratifies the intellect more than anything, like a chess game. To me that's a little like buying a full size keyboard and then only using two octaves of it http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif, or buying a keyboard with unlimited voices and only using two or three of them http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif - the result might indeed be really cool, but it hardly embraces all the amazing things the instrument is capable of. --Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alphajerk Posted February 3, 2001 Share Posted February 3, 2001 pyramid, i do so much with just two chords, thats what i compose on my sequencer mostly. and bombaring the outputs with information. the repetition combined with the chaos of the notes and voicing within those chords is truly meditative. a third chord in there would just spoil everything. the chess analogy... the strategy, the psychology, the battle of wit. a workout for the brain... but i have always prefered to be the performer over the spectator. so whats really creating the effect, the music and sound or the creator? alphajerk FATcompilation "if god is truly just, i tremble for the fate of my country" -thomas jefferson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbrock1san.rr.com Posted February 3, 2001 Share Posted February 3, 2001 Much of todays music is angry and almost violent that young people listen to. Just turn on the radio or MTV and you can't miss it. It is also healing and an emotional release for them. They may be getting the same effects that someone else does "mellowing out" to John Tesh or Yanni. I've seen my share of AC/DC concerts and I know I am uplifted by the raw adrenaline and freedom that they can generate on a good night. It's hard to discuss much of todays music without mentioning the sexually component. I've always believed that music is more powerful today than ever, because music is one vehicle used to help liberate men and women from the sexual repression and confusion that has plagued societies forever. It isn't always pretty when artists confront sexuality in music but the longterm effects may be very "healing". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Aikin Posted February 6, 2001 Share Posted February 6, 2001 Originally posted by Lee Flier: I've noticed that a lot of people who depend heavily on the intellect seem quite satisfied to listen to music that gratifies the intellect more than anything, like a chess game. To me that's a little like buying a full size keyboard and then only using two octaves of it, or buying a keyboard with unlimited voices and only using two or three of them - the result might indeed be really cool, but it hardly embraces all the amazing things the instrument is capable of. In bringing up chess, I was responding to Phil O'Keefe, who said something like, "If it doesn't move me, what's the point?" The point I was trying to make, while being perhaps a little too terse, was that there are human activities that may have a point, even while not being "moving" in the sense that music is (or can be) moving. I do think, though, that it's a mistake to believe that because your keyboard can make thousands of different sounds, you're missing something unless you use all of them. Using two or three of the sounds can be just as meaningful. One of the things that happens as you get older is that you start to appreciate digging in to some aspects of an artistic medium, rather than constantly stimulating yourself with a stream of gee-whiz newness. Neither approach is right or wrong, they're just different. Each of us has to find our own preferred zone in the intellectual/emotional spectrum of music. The fact that I don't care to listen to wall-of-sound headbanging rock and roll doesn't mean that I'm necessarily missing anything. A Buddhist rock garden is not necessarily less moving, or less stimulating, than a 20-ton landslide. --Jim Aikin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alphajerk Posted February 6, 2001 Share Posted February 6, 2001 "A Buddhist rock garden is not necessarily less moving, or less stimulating, than a 20-ton landslide." i love that image but i think 20 tons of rock sliding down a mountain is more MOVING http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif although it reminds me of what i've noticed in life on earth is that nature is more beautiful in her chaos than man is in their own design... alphajerk FATcompilation "if god is truly just, i tremble for the fate of my country" -thomas jefferson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael saulnier Posted February 6, 2001 Share Posted February 6, 2001 Interesting thread. There have been some "serious" studies done on music and its influence on people... I'm no expert on the subject, but everytime you're in your local grocery store you're hearing the results... I know muzak sucks, but as long as the studies show people are "buying" more, they'll keep playing it. Soundtracks, commercials, on-hold music, and more are all examples of attempts to influence an emotional state through music. I also wanted to comment on Lee's thought that she can't work with music on... I'm the opposite. I can't work in silence. Don't get me wrong, I'm not cranking my favorite rock tunes all day long, but a little "smooth jazz" (is that even music? http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif), in the background makes my toes tap and my day fly by without making me overly aware it's there... but if it's not, I notice in an instant. guitplayer I'm still "guitplayer"! Check out my music if you like... http://www.michaelsaulnier.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chip McDonald Posted February 6, 2001 Share Posted February 6, 2001 Originally posted by guitplayer: people... I'm no expert on the subject, but everytime you're in your local grocery store you're hearing the results... The grocery store is the best - particularly KRGR Kroger Radio.... they play the most varied assortment of music you'll ever hear. I've heard Black Sabbath back to back with Willie Nelson doing Soundgarden's "Rusty Cage" seguing into an obscure Joe Walsh tune. They're also partial to Wings and songs from the Police's _Ghost in the Machine_ which is very cool. I've heard Black Dog as muzak at a gas station once. That was odd. Not as odd as hearing the ENTIRE first side of _Dark Side of the Moon_ at Ryan's Steakhouse, though... *I swear I'm not making that up*... The creepy thing is that all of the sunday afternoon southern Baptist churchgoers didn't seem to notice... http://www.mp3.com/chipmcdonald Guitar Lessons in Augusta Georgia: www.chipmcdonald.com Eccentric blog: https://chipmcdonaldblog.blogspot.com/ / "big ass windbag" - Bruce Swedien Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Flier Posted February 6, 2001 Share Posted February 6, 2001 Originally posted by Jim Aikin: I do think, though, that it's a mistake to believe that because your keyboard can make thousands of different sounds, you're missing something unless you use all of them. Using two or three of the sounds can be just as meaningful. One of the things that happens as you get older is that you start to appreciate digging in to some aspects of an artistic medium, rather than constantly stimulating yourself with a stream of gee-whiz newness. Neither approach is right or wrong, they're just different. LOL.... yeah I think that was a bad analogy on my part because I feel exactly the same way! Using a bunch of whizbang effects is not my thing at all - as a guitar player I tend to go straight into the amp. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif But I think the point I was trying to make is that while there are plenty of purely intellectual arts, which admirably serve their purpose, music is not just intellectual but physical and temporal, and a lot of people seem to ignore that, thinking that the intellectual part is the whole enchilada. I'm not knocking intellectual arts at all - I'm nuts about a good book, and enjoy writing,and I'm a computer programmer fercryinoutloud. But music is like exercising a whole different set of muscles to me - and I sure am glad I have a foolproof way of getting in touch with all those other facets of being alive. --Lee This message has been edited by Lee Flier on 02-06-2001 at 10:39 AM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham English Posted February 7, 2001 Share Posted February 7, 2001 Man's design is nature's chaos....or is man's chaos nature's design? ...what is the sound of one hand clapping? http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/eek.gif This message has been edited by transrational on 02-07-2001 at 10:49 AM ++ Graham English ++ Ear Training, Songwriting Tips, and Music Theory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artnoiser Posted February 8, 2001 Share Posted February 8, 2001 Take your favorite band you like to bash (we all got them). Make sure it's a band whom you loathe because of their music's extreme commercial character and lack of depth. Now...am I am asking myself this too, so don't think I am trying to smart-ass you guys and gals...does their music move someone? The 14 year old teenie bop that hasn't experienced anything particularly deep (you know, problems, that sort of thing), much less real love, for example? (perhaps a bit of faster heart rate and hyperventilation) Would that make bands and music like that valid? I mean, "marketing" as the answer to these bands selling so damn much is one thing, but doesn't marketing play with emotions? And don't these platinum record buyers connect emotionally with bands that suck? Sorry for this weird post. I just got into the thought process and y'all seem like an intelligent bunch to me, so I thought I'd ask. artnoiser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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