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The Effects of Music and Sound


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Anyone up for a discussion not about the mechanics or tools of making music, but rather the effects of music and sound on the listener, and on the musician? Those other than simple entertainment?

 

Topics might include "aesthetic peak listening experiences," sound and healing, transformation, spiritual/shamanic uses, etc.

 

Share your experiences here...

 

Steve Sklar/Big Sky

www.bigskyrocks.com

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Hearing Norman Blake and Mike Hedges from five feet away without an amplifier...or Ralph Towner at a club in Chicago while using my pickup design in his 12-strings...or Bonnie Raitt in a 100 seat night club, not singing, just playing slide on the Strat...or Asleep at the Wheel, doing four part string band harmony with that big Texas sound...or Joan Baez when she had 14,000 people in Ahearn Fieldhouse singing and crying at 5am....is this the kind of stuff you are talking about?

 

It's sad that these moments in our lives are so few and far between...but that's what makes them so special...to be transported away from our mundane universe to another more special one...

 

Dave

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McCoy Tyner?!? I'm jealous...

 

I think I know what you're getting at with this topic. Let me throw something out: how many here have played with just intonation? A lot of keyboards can do alternate tunings, and the sound is just so much purer...it's so different from even-tempered. Some say adoption of the even-tempered scale was to music as integrating junk food into the diet was to eating.

 

The theory goes further: that music used to be used more extensively for healing purposes back in the days when intonation was more pure, but now, due to the limitations of even-tempered tuning, it's really good only for entertainment, not for serious healing purposes. Any thoughts?

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Uhhh... not sure I follow you there Craig, 'cause a lot of healing music is atonal and/or just drums and percussion and/or vocals (and sometimes vocals that don't adhere to any particular melodic scale at that).

 

Personally, most music that I truly love goes far beyond entertainment in the power it has over me. In fact I really don't listen to music to be entertained; I want to be deeply moved. I can't have music going on in the background usually, because if music is playing I have to focus on it. And I can only listen to new music in small doses, 'cause it usually takes me awhile to absorb everything about it and I never want to just gloss over it. If there's background music going on that I dislike, it really screws me up; I find it very hard to tune out. Music can heal me and it can also hurt me pretty bad. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif That doesn't mean I don't have fun with it though. Hell, AC/DC move me deeply. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

 

--Lee

 

 

This message has been edited by Lee Flier on 02-01-2001 at 01:04 AM

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>>transformation, spiritual/shamanic uses, etc.<<

 

These are the things about music that I luv deeply.

 

>>Share your experiences here...<<

 

OK. There's a club in Philly called Bar Noir, on 18th Street, and there is a funk/fusion band that plays there on alternating Tuesday nights called Clutch Cargo. They are a crack-team of the finest, most intense musicians in town, and they leave an open mic for improvisation. There is a female poet, a male poet, and myself (singer) who do a round-robin type improve with this group, and it is shamanistic to the max. We all feed off each other's energies, and the performances become more and more intense as the night wears on. It is all improvised (Clutch Cargo doesn't rehearse), but the vocalists bring lyrics to "perform." We all (the rhymers) sit at a table in front of the stage, and one by one we get up and throw down, sometimes two at a time, sometimes in tandem, and we never know what's going to happen, or who's going to perform in what order. Some of the best musicians in town, like Elliot Levin (sax) and Foster Childs (flute) come and sit in. Liam Gallagher sat in one night. It's all done intuitively, and it is sublime. The audiences are always mesmerized, and I personally always leave the club those nights feeling more alive than I could ever feel. Going home in the cab on nights like those, I look out over the city and think about how blessed we are to have music. All of the arts aspire to music, because music is pure form.

Eric Vincent (ASCAP)

www.curvedominant.com

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Sorry if this goes off topic, but interestingly enough I was thinking about just vs. even-tempered intonation just last night. (Actually, a friend and I were discussing it after the McCoy Tyner show)

 

Wouldn't it make sense for sequencers (or synths) to be able to handle just vs even-tempered intonation? It doesn't seem like it would be a very complicated feature to add. Of course you would need to specify the key for each song/section/phrase when in just intonation...

 

It would be really interesting to experiment with this! Has anyone tried anything like this?

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BTW Craig, McCoy is playing at Yoshi's for the rest of the week, in case you happen to be in the area (or willing to travel http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif)

 

It was indeed a very soulful and uplifing experience, as one would expect from this great musician. Al Foster and Stanley Clark weren't too shabby either http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif

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Originally posted by Sal Orlando:

Sorry if this goes off topic, but interestingly enough I was thinking about just vs. even-tempered intonation just last night. (Actually, a friend and I were discussing it after the McCoy Tyner show)

 

Wouldn't it make sense for sequencers (or synths) to be able to handle just vs even-tempered intonation? It doesn't seem like it would be a very complicated feature to add. Of course you would need to specify the key for each song/section/phrase when in just intonation...

 

It would be really interesting to experiment with this! Has anyone tried anything like this?

 

 

As far as I know, some E-mu modules are able to do this.

 

JoseC.

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My wife used to be part of a music troupe that performed for live audiences that couldn't get out into the real world. They did 2 shows a day, 6 days a week, for over 2 years. She's played every prison, and, most of the nursing homes in our state.

 

She's got stories from those shows! She met some fantastic, older muscians that were grounded in nursing homes, and, they even did some impromptu jamming. Laughter and tears were common. She has a watercolor portrait a prisoner gave her...She was the first woman they saw on death row in 3 years...great audience! Their response to her singing took my wife's breath away!

 

I did the sound for one of their concerts at a large womens prison. The show wasn't on the stage, it was watching the audience. She still performs "I'm just an inmate from Niantic, a place where any guy can have a ball", melody from Merle Haggard, and, new lyrics from the inmates.

 

Personally, the music that moved me the most was performed by 3 guys that I used to record a lot in my studio. I had just had a heart attack, and, was hospitalized in a terminal ward. They brought their instruments into my room, and, did their show at my bedside. You have no idea how much I loved that show!!! Music can take you to a totally different space and time!!! Made me realize why I wanted to stick around a little longer.

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An interesting thing about music is how it can affect us on many levels. It affects our body through vibration, mind through symbols, and spirit through transrational experience. And indeed those of us who create music are, in fact, experiencing ourselves as the divine creators.

Gods and goddesses we are. But don't let that get to your ego. Because we can all see how concepts can hijack the upper levels of being and distort reality into an egoic mess. Pick your favorite confused artist who has self-destructed through their "art."

But in the development of humanity, music has always had a sacred lineage that must be recognized, respected, and nurtured. Music can help heal our mind-body disassociations and carry us further into the Great Chain of Being.

Just imagine what truly enlightened music sounds like......

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By the way, Craig.....

Don Campbell has tremendous success using the music of Mozart as a healing tool. Which leads me to believe it's not so much the type of scale, as the intention behind the use of that particular scale. Not to say that if Mozart had used just intonation his music might have an even greater healing effect.

I think I will work with just intonation and see what happens. Thanks for your thoughts!

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I vacationed in Japan in 1974 at age 14. The koto music I heard stayed in my head for years. Eventually, I started finding koto albums in the stores in San Fransico and I still listen to them all the time. It is the most healing, soothing music I have ever heard. Just beautiful stuff.

 

In contrast, new age music makes me nervous and is like chalk on a blackboard. I bring that up because my friends say that there are similarities between traditional Japanese music and "new age" music. Maybe Craig's theory about intonation and tuning has some validity.

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Lots of good responses here, thanks everyone!

 

I'm a firm believer in this kinda stuff, and think that it's unfortunate to be so lacking in our culture (modern American; I know there might be readers here from elswhere where this is not the case). There is the exception of "New Age" music, and I know that many of us demean this stuff, for various reasons. To me, sometimes it's just tripe by untalented "artists" but sometimes it may have value but be maligned, usually as "boring." Our culture expects most music to be stimulating, exciting, titillating, etc., and even well-done mellower music can easily disappoint based on these expectations. I also believe, and this really relates to producers and engineers, that too often listeners mistake audio production quality for musical quality; mistaking "this SOUNDS great for "this music is great."

 

Let me share a few experiences.

 

When my Tuvan teachers first tried to teach me to sing Khoomei, it seemed impossible. I got my first lesson onstage at a theater, during their throat-singing workshop. The lead singer, Kaigal-ool, the translator, and I were close together, with the other 3 members to the side.

 

Kaigal-ool started to sing in the style called Kargyraa. It's very low, powerful-sounding. He asked me to try doing it. Lacking any understanding of the techniques involved, and to the amusement of the crowd, I failed miserably. And repeatedly. He tried taking my hands and placing them on his body, showing me which parts were vibrating/resonating. I continued making sick noises, getting no closer.

 

Finally, he summoned the other group members, and they surrounded me, about a foot or two away. Kaigal-ool said they were going to "put the sound in me." On his cue, they all let loose with this huge sound. I closed my eyes to better focus... and then, I felt/saw them each as a source of light, shining into me, like some kind of living optical fibers, and it lit me up like a candle. I was stunned; it was a spontanous psychedelic experience brought about by sound! It was so powerful that I had to open my eyes, just to regain my equilibrium. Shutting them again, we repeated the experience, this time for a couple minutes.

 

When they stopped, he asked me to try again. Same result as before, total failure. The crowed laughed, and I returned to my seat.

 

For 2 weeks, I tried to make the correct sound, getting nowhere. One morning I awoke, stood up, opened my mouth, and out it came.

 

I wondered for some time about the implication, that one could "put the sound" into someone, and that it could somehow gestate within, and then manifest? But, recently, while teaching Khoomei, I've succesfully duplicated this with students who just weren't getting it (although I've learned effective ways of teaching most students).

 

Another time, I was discussing music with another Central Asian friend. One of his partners is supremely gifted, as both a singer and instrumentalist. I remarked that my friend was fortunate to work with this other musician, just for the pleasure of getting to listen to him all the time.

 

He said, "yes, but he worries me." "Why," I asked him. He explained that our friend was always striving to higher excellence, that he always wanted to sing more beautifully, to go ever higher and higher. He explained that in their shamanic worldview, such talents are considered gifts from the spirit world, and that one should enjoy them, develop them, but not to push too hard. Such obsession could cause spiritual or physical harm, he said, "like Icarus." I've never heard anything like this from any western musician.

 

Gotta go for now. I hope we can continue this!

 

Steve Sklar/Big Sky

mp3.com/bigsky

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Wow, there is some really great stuff posted here!

 

To further tie the various aspects of this thread together, check out this Web site I just found:

 

http://www.freeplay.com/

 

I actually read this book about 8 years ago, and it was fantastic.

 

Interestingly, there is software advertised here (The World Music Menu) which claims to be able to reconfigure synths to play in different tunings and intonations. Unfortunately it looks rather old (1996). I wonder if it still works? If anyone knows anything about this or has used it I'd love to hear about it.

 

Secondly, the same author is apparently working on a book (Genius & Magic) which seems to cover the same subject as this thread! He is soliciting contributions; perhaps some of you may be interested?

 

Anyway, I thought that was a pretty interesting synergy, and so I felt compelled to share...

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>>Personally, most music that I truly love goes far beyond entertainment in the power it has over me. In fact I really don't listen to music to be entertained; I want to be deeply moved. I can't have music going on in the background usually, because if music is playing I have to focus on it

 

A--MEN, SISTAH! Truth! Why is it that so many people like "wallpaper music"??? I can't relate at all...

 

Music was designed to move emotions and spirit deeply, and as Ecclesiastes said, "A time for every purpose"...but...for me...it has to be a transport, whether I'm the one that's playing it, and copping the energy vibe from what (for me, anyway) would be a better than half assed performance, or listening, no, experiencing someone with the power to truly blow me away.

"Cisco Kid, was a friend of mine"
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Steve,

I recently produced a CD with a Japanese guitarist. His writing style is funk, and, he's damn good at it.

 

What amazed me, when I got him to really stretch out on his solos, he defaulted to 5th's when he pushed beyond his personal envelope. A standard oriental music structure!

 

What amazed me more is, how well this oriental standard fits black urban music.

 

Music is truly universal!!!

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Originally posted by Steve Sklar:

He said, "yes, but he worries me." "Why," I asked him. He explained that our friend was always striving to higher excellence, that he always wanted to sing more beautifully, to go ever higher and higher. He explained that in their shamanic worldview, such talents are considered gifts from the spirit world, and that one should enjoy them, develop them, but not to push too hard. Such obsession could cause spiritual or physical harm, he said, "like Icarus." I've never heard anything like this from any western musician.

 

This is a matter of great concern to many western musicians, and is one reason there has been a big Baroque revival in recent years.

 

A couple of years ago, the both of us sang with a small Baroque ensemble. None of this A-440, or A-443, or A-448 (?!?!), but A-415. Aaaaaaaah!

 

Those Baroque masters knew the instruments they were working with, and between the old-fashioned A, the unequal temperment, and the masterful writing for the voice, it was a lovely experience.

 

(Plus the harpsichordist was one hot lady)

 

Spiritual and physical harm is rampant in the world of music- carpal tunnel syndrome and ruined voices are everywhere. But musicians everywhere, in the west as well, do fight against it. I specifically remember a great piano teacher telling one of her students to stay away from Rachmaninoff, as the student's gift was intended for other, less physically powerful, music, and playing the music would bring her physical and psychological (read: spiritual) harm.

 

The ending of the story is sadly not hard to guess.

 

 

As far as the healing powers of music, it is good to remember that in traditional medicines as well as modern medicine, there are many kinds of drugs- stimulants as well as sedatives, anaesthetics, expectorants, laxatives and even placebos.

 

Most moving recent musical experience: the crackling of the glaze on some teacups made by a mad potter the first time boiling water was poured in. It was like a swarm of tiny crystal dragonflies- put to shame anything I've heard done with granular synthesis or CSound. It helps to have toddlers around to remind you just how fantastic things like that are.

 

http://www.mp3.com/Kosmolith

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Originally posted by Sal Orlando:

...there is software advertised here (The World Music Menu) which claims to be able to reconfigure synths to play in different tunings and intonations. Unfortunately it looks rather old (1996). I wonder if it still works? If anyone knows anything about this or has used it I'd love to hear about it.

 

Most of the popular pro-level synthesizers can play in any of a number of preset tunings. Some can support user defined scales. No external software is required.

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Originally posted by dansouth@yahoo.com:

Most of the popular pro-level synthesizers can play in any of a number of preset tunings. Some can support user defined scales. No external software is required.

 

The World Music Menu software was intended to streamline this process for musicians who might not know how to set up an interesting non-equal-tempered tuning. I don't know whether it has been updated to support newer synths.

 

Existing synths, assuming they implement user tunings at all, frequently limit your options in fairly horrible ways:

 

(1) Often, only 12 notes can be tuned. They're repeated every octave. What if I want 16 notes per octave, in order to get at a couple of extra notes in the cracks? Of what if I want to program a scale that doesn't have repeating octaves? Never mind the keyboard fingering; that's another issue. Just let me play the notes.

 

(2) Once you've selected a tuning, some synths won't let you change it on the fly, in the middle of a piece. Being able to step through the user tuning tables from a footswitch? Unheard-of.

 

(3) Then there's the pitchbend depth parameter. No matter what non-equal-tempered tuning you've set up, I promise your pitch wheel will still have a range that's defined in equal-tempered half-steps, which is really stupid in the circumstances.

 

Grumble, grumble, grumble.

 

--Jim Aikin

 

This message has been edited by Jim Aikin on 02-01-2001 at 08:09 PM

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One of the interesting things that happen, if you start experimenting with just intonation, is that all those big, rich synth patches become dead wood. The reason being, they're full of animation (oscillators beating against one another, chorus effects messing with the overtones), and the animation interferes with your ability to hear the pure intervals.

 

I could even make a case that those patches are programmed with lots of animation precisely (though unconsciously) to mask the awful sound of equal-tempered intervals.

 

Once you program some simpler, more pure patches with which to play just-intonation music, you may find that the sound takes you in a radically different direction emotionally. It's simpler, smaller, more intimate. That's been my experience, anyhow. YMMV. The healing power (if any) of just intonation music arises partly from the pure scale and partly from what a sensitive composer does with the pure scale.

 

--Jim Aikin

 

 

 

This message has been edited by Jim Aikin on 02-01-2001 at 08:06 PM

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Sal and Craig, I wanna see McCoy too! I caught a film of Coltrane's 4tet playing A Love Supreme last night. How excellent; that music really hits me.

 

About the temperament, I don't know. I often suspect that with these esoteric matters the cultural context determines the effectiveness of such particulars. For example, many cultures and "belief groups" have systems correlating colors and pitches, often with other symbols, chakras, etc. There is quite a variety in such arrangements. But all believe in the validity of the teachings. Perhaps tuning methods, digital vs analog, etc., could be seen in that light?

 

Curve, when we go to Philly, yer gonna take us, right?

 

Trans, where can we hear yer music?

 

Dan, great stories man!

 

dada, that's cool. Some stuff I wasn't aware of. The Rachmanninof thing is quite interesting, know any more about it? "Swarms of Tiny Crystal Dragonflies" even the description sounds cool. I'll check out your tunage.

 

Steve RB: Of course. I don't think anyone said that. It wasn't what I meant by modern western music, though that term could be seen that way. I'm certainly interested in any points you'd like to share about such musics.

 

Steve

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Originally posted by Lee Flier:

I really don't listen to music to be entertained; I want to be deeply moved. I can't have music going on in the background usually, because if music is playing I have to focus on it.

 

I can't listen to vocal music in the background, because I focus on the words, but I find classical music very suitable for background listening. Anything too exciting, though, I'll have to take it off.

 

I had an interesting discussion with a fellow Keyboard editor about this "deeply moved" business. He indicated he had been moved to the point of tears purely by music (instrumental, no lyrics). I can't even fathom that. Maybe my musical brain is more intellectual than musical.

 

I have once or twice laughed out loud when listening to Haydn, who had a wonderful sense of humor, so maybe there's still hope for me.

 

--Jim Aikin

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Hey Steve,

 

Rachmaninoff apparently had huge hands, gripping more than an octave quite often, and his piano music can really get roaring, so it is a physical challenge.

 

The harpsichordist I mentioned also has small hands, and wisely chose her path quite young- one of the biggest problems is of course parents and teachers driving kids into the "glamorous" aspects of music, dramatic piano concertos, grand opera arias, etc, when they are either not physically suited or, more often, simply too young.

 

Kind of funny story- a teacher of mine saw Rachmaninoff in concert. She said that if anyone else had taken such liberities with his music, and played so freely, he would have been booed off the stage!

 

Better go quote that one at the other forum, where they're talking about using click tracks.

 

I usually miss the timeframe when this forum is "happening", it's 2:30 AM here and it looks like about now is the time people are "live". Darn- it's fun.

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Jim-

 

I am not deeply moved by instrumental music played on my stereo but I have been absolutely moved and transformed by numerous concerts. Even instrumental ones.

 

Great singing and lyrics that resonate with me will always be more moving than pure instrumental music. The human voice and brain are the most awesome instruments ever created.

 

Jazz enthuasists might not agree because most of it is instrumental.

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Jim-

 

I am not deeply moved by instrumental music played on my stereo but I have been absolutely moved and transformed by numerous concerts. Even instrumental ones.

 

Great singing and lyrics that resonate with me will always be more moving than pure instrumental music. The human voice and brain are the most awesome instruments ever created.

 

Jazz enthuasists might not agree because most of it is instrumental.

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About that Mozart/healing comment --

 

You'll find that string quartets and orchestras often have "just intonation moments" due to the fact that many instruments aren't restricted to fixed pitch intervals. It's not at all uncommon for violinists and cellists to move the pitch ever so slightly to create a just internal rather than an even-tempered one.

 

Barbershop quartets also tend to drift naturally into just intonation.

 

Once you've played with a just-intoned instrument, the difference is hugely obvious. But as Jim points out, the implementations are not always wonderful.

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Originally posted by Jim Aikin:

I can't listen to vocal music in the background, because I focus on the words, but I find classical music very suitable for background listening. Anything too exciting, though, I'll have to take it off.

 

I had an interesting discussion with a fellow Keyboard editor about this "deeply moved" business. He indicated he had been moved to the point of tears purely by music (instrumental, no lyrics). I can't even fathom that. Maybe my musical brain is more intellectual than musical.

 

Yeah, gotta use that right brain! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif The lyrics are usually the last thing I hear in a piece of music. I love to read and write, I love poetry, words are great. And I appreciate a great song lyric as much as anybody, once I hear one. But my first reaction to any piece of music is purely visceral/spiritual/emotional and if it doesn't get through on that level, it doesn't matter how technically brilliant it is or how great the lyrics are, I'm still not going to like it. On the other hand, if it DOES hit me right on the gut level the singer can be singing "Wop bop a lula", or nothing at all, and that's fine with me! A great lyric may or may not make it that much better. I focus just as intensely on instrumental music as anything with lyrics. Even when there's a vocalist a lot of times I'm just listening to the SOUND of the words - the phrasing and the tone and expression of the singer's voice, not necessarily the actual words (though a few words may poke through the first time I listen to a song). Unless maybe it's somebody like Bob Dylan where the words really are a huge percentage of the song.

 

Much as I love my left brain for doing other stuff, I think it would be hard to truly let music in and let it do what it's capable of doing for you if you can't shut that down to some degree. I think music is the highest form of communication because it incorporates every facet of your being at the same time - physical, spiritual, logical, emotional, temporal. A lot of westerners do seem to bypass some of that, especially the physical/temporal element which is really important. Music can bring body and spirit together and that's where it has the greatest power to move and to heal.

 

--Lee

 

 

This message has been edited by Lee Flier on 02-01-2001 at 11:28 PM

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