dansouth Posted January 30, 2001 Share Posted January 30, 2001 The AW4416 is great. Period. Uncompromised audio quality at an extremely low price point. And when that Waves card comes out, it will compete with the stuff that Mackie has had on the drawing board for five years. I've only had one issue with the unit. Ambient noise. It sounds like a vacuum cleaner - way too loud to use with open mics in my one room studio. For a long time, I suspected the fan and the hard drive, but I recently noticed that the noise seemed to be coming from the front of the unit. I opened the bottom of the unit and unplugged the power cable to the CD-RW drive, and voila! Whisper quiet! So I have some questions. Has anyone else experienced this kind of noise, or did I just get a bad CD-RW drive? Functionally it works fine, but it's as loud as Niagra Falls, even when there's no CD in there. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/frown.gif I'm now faced with three choices. The first is to open the bottom of the unit and connect the CD-RW every time I need to save a file. I mix to a MasterLink, so I use the onboard CD-RW for backups only. The second choice is to try replacing the onboard unit. This assumes that the replacement will be quieter, which is a big assumption. The last choice is to buy an external SCSI CD-RW drive and turn it on only when I need it. I would have done this today, but the dealer doesn't stock these drives. Does anyone else use an external CD-RW drive for the AW4416? If so, what model is it and where did you buy it? Is it working reliably? Thanks in advance for your input. Excuse me while I go enjoy the sound of silence. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Flier Posted January 30, 2001 Share Posted January 30, 2001 Dan, Yes, the noise problem is definitely the internal CD-R fan, and a lot of people on the AW4416 user group are complaining about it. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif Seems like a big oversight on Yamaha's part to not have included a switch for the CD-R so you don't have to listen to it when you're not using it. At least one user has already modified the AW and installed a switch for the CD-R. Others are casting about for a quieter replacement (rumors abound that there is a fanless CD-R drive somewhere). Quite a number of folks are also using external drives and a few have experienced problems, but for the most part they are working fine. I myself am just dealing with the noise as it hasn't been a huge problem for me YET. I don't have a separate control room either, but my studio is large enough that I can move far enough away during tracking that it doesn't pick up the noise, or maybe mine is just quieter than yours. If it does become a problem for a particular track I'll disconnect the freakin' thing. But if you or anyone else comes up with a better solution I might try it - I DO get tired of hearing the noise sometimes when I'm just monitoring at low levels, which is often. This is one of only a couple of things Yamaha screwed up for us early adopters - overall though, like you I continue to be really impressed with the machine and totally enjoy working with it. --Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip OKeefe Posted January 30, 2001 Share Posted January 30, 2001 Hi Dan and Lee: The fans in the AW have not been major problems for me (yet) but as you know, I have a seperate control room. I just pulled out my SPL meter and checked both the CD fan and the rear main fan. Here's what I measured at 1" away from the front face (cenetered at the CD drive bay) and back (centered right at the fan!) 60 dB, A weighted, slow response for both tests. My guess is that the rear fan is less troublesome for most users because it's in the back where the bulk of the unit is going to impede some of the sound waves from reaching your ears as easily. I know you can put a switch in for the CD-RW's power, and wish Yamaha had done so. Lifting the unit, pulling the access plate and pulling the power cable to the CD is more hassle than it ought to be, especially if you have a lot of goodies hooked up to the back (like me) and don't want to put strain on your connections. Otherwise, you'd have to unplug everything from the AW, and that's not always good to do either because of the extra wear and tear (especially if Yamaha used surface mounted PCB jacks, which I suspect they did). Lee Flier said: >>This is one of only a couple of things Yamaha screwed up for us early adopters - overall though, like you I continue to be really impressed with the machine and totally enjoy working with it.<< I'll third that! Phil O'Keefe Sound Sanctuary Recording Riverside CA http://members.aol.com/ssanctuary/index.html email: pokeefe777@msn.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chedrob Posted January 31, 2001 Share Posted January 31, 2001 I have been using the 4416 in a one-room studio as well. Until I started reading this thread, I did not realize the CD-RW was the culprit. What about getting a case for the CD-RW and using it externally and switching it on only when needed? That way, we still get the compatibility of the Yamaha unit without the unnecessary noise. I concur with all of the praise heaped on this unit. Ease of use and Stress Free Recording. By the way Dan, can you elaborate on the Waves Card. Charley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Flier Posted January 31, 2001 Share Posted January 31, 2001 Charley, Here's the press release from Waves about their card: http://www.waves.com/htmls/press/Yamaha_release.html Just check out http://www.waves.com for more information on Waves' products if you aren't familiar with them. I haven't used any of them myself, but everybody whose opinion I respect says they're da bomb. Can't wait to hear it! --Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dansouth Posted January 31, 2001 Author Share Posted January 31, 2001 Charley - Yamaha lists several standalone hard drives that work with the AW. Go to their web site at http://www.aw4416.com and click on English, then Information, then users to see a list of compatible devices. Most are stand alone versions of the drives they recommend for the internal bay. I don't know whether it's possible to put the internal drive into a case with a power supply and get it to work as a stand alone unit. I'm not prepared to void my warranty by adding a power switch, so I'll have to bite the bullet and buy a stand alone SCSI CD-RW for mine. If the drive with no fan comes out soon, I may opt for that route. What I can tell you is that the unit is INCREDIBLY QUIET since I unhooked the CD-RW. It's so quiet I have to glance over every now and then just to make sure it's still on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dansouth Posted January 31, 2001 Author Share Posted January 31, 2001 Originally posted by Lee Flier: the noise problem is definitely the internal CD-R fan, and a lot of people on the AW4416 user group are complaining about it. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif Lee, Thanks for the info. Where can I find this users group? Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Flier Posted January 31, 2001 Share Posted January 31, 2001 Dan (and anybody else), Here's the link to the user group website: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/aw4416 --Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dansouth Posted January 31, 2001 Author Share Posted January 31, 2001 Thanks, Lee. I checked out the forum, but it seems like two thirds of the posts comprise a pissing contest between Roland and Yamaha users. Not very productive. Didn't see any mention of the Y56K. Craig's site RULES! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Flier Posted January 31, 2001 Share Posted January 31, 2001 Dan, Yeah, that "pissing contest" started a few days ago but seems to be over now. If you go back a little further you'll find mention of the Waves card and lots of other more useful stuff. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif Not that I don't agree that Craig's forum rules! --Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip OKeefe Posted January 31, 2001 Share Posted January 31, 2001 Dan and Lee: As a participant in that "pissing contest" I think I should apologize. I REALLY hate getting into any of those *my stuff's better* arguments over the Internet (or anywhere else for that matter) and I didn't want that whole thing to get too far off topic. Then again, how the AW compares to the other similar products on the market is a relevant issue, IMHO. I'm just glad that whole discussion is over and done with. The only reason I went into some of that was because I felt that legitimate questions were being asked by some potential purchasers and that the main protagonist in that discussion was giving people the impression that the AW was unusable and we were all foolish for not being omniscient and knowing that Roland was going to release the VS2480, and gee, what a much better platform that is gonna be, etc. While he's obviously a pro user and does seem to make a good living from his VS stuff, he does do mostly ad agency type stuff, and while I wasn't trying to disrespect him or his professionalism, I felt (and still do) that he was being hard on some of the other AW users (especially you Lee) and using his "pro" status to bolster his arguments that the VS was not sonically inferior with respect to preamps, converters, data reduction, etc. I tried not to be argumentative or disrespectful, just post about what *my* subjective opinions were and what the results of *my* side by side double blind tests indicated. Hey, I make my living off this stuff too, and I'd hate to have someone think that the AW is crap and / or not up to professional use, based solely on the opinion of one professional user. I was just trying to add some balance to his posts. Again, I apologize if it got out of hand. Dan, the AW user's group is a valuable resource, and a nice community, and lots of interesting stuff gets shared there. I've been able to have some of my questions answered and in return, I try to be helpful to others when I can. We'd love to have you join us, but there's *no* way I'd stop coming here - I agree, Craig's site absolutely ROCKS! Phil O'Keefe Sound Sanctuary Recording Riverside CA http://members.aol.com/ssanctuary/index.html email: pokeefe777@msn.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chedrob Posted January 31, 2001 Share Posted January 31, 2001 Dan I don't foresee a problem with removing the internal CD-RW and putting it in an external case with a power supply. It is, after all, just another SCSI device. My 4416 came with a 12.5Gb HD and a Yamaha CD-RW as part of the package. Since I already have the drive it seems like a practical solution. The power switch would be on the external case - so there would be no fear of voiding the warranty and, as an added bonus, you could connect the CD-RW to a computer for additional use and value. After reading your post yesterday, I intend to try disconnecting the CD-RW and checking it out. The ONLY issue I have with the 4416 is the ambient noise. I was prepared to live with it but thanks to your post I realize this unit is even better than I thought it would be. Charley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Flier Posted January 31, 2001 Share Posted January 31, 2001 Charley: If and when you do go that route, can you report back on how well it works out for you? And what kind of case you get, etc. I'm a little torn because, although the ambient noise isn't a HUGE problem, I would still like to solve it. And I really do like having the CDR inside the unit - portability is one reason I got it. So I dunno if I want to do the external case thing, get a fanless drive, or just live with it till my warranty expires and then put a switch in. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif Guess I'll just do the latter unless it becomes a bigger problem than it is now. Thanks, Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chedrob Posted March 26, 2001 Share Posted March 26, 2001 Well I did it. I moved so I had to disconnect everything and pack it up. When I setup the AW4416 again, I removed the CDRW drive and put it in an external SCSI case. It was an old Dynatek case that had a CD-ROM drive in it. The case has a power supply, fan and SCSI connector. The ambient noise of the AW4416 is not totally eliminated but it is greatly reduced. If I want to burn a CD I just power up the AW with the CDRW attached and turned on. Everything else is the same - including software updates on the AW. I was hoping for the added benefit of being able to use the CDRW with my old Macintosh 7300 but the computer does not recognize the drive. According to the manual that came with the CDRW, it requires a PC with an Adaptec 2940 SCSI card so I may need to get a PC. I highly recommend this change to all AW users who are bothered by the noise. You only hear the CDRW when you are using it. If you are doing mobile recording, it is only one more small piece of gear you need to carry. charley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Flier Posted March 26, 2001 Share Posted March 26, 2001 Charley, I wish you'd been hanging out on the AW user group, because we found the Holy Grail of getting rid of noise: disconnect the internal CDR's fan. Yamaha has told us that it is really not necessary because the AW doesn't run as hot as a computer, and that they've had an AW running in their labs with the fan disconnected for months with no problem. So, several of us other AW owners have also disconnected our fans, myself included, and have encountered no problems and it's a LOT quieter. I've had my AW running for 3 days straight now for example, and have burned a lot of backup CD's, and it has not gotten hot. Yamaha has also said that this procedure will not void the warranty. Phil O'Keefe wrote an article on the unofficial AW user's site describing how to disconnect the fan, and I'd highly recommend it: http://www.socialentropy.com/aw4416/AW4416%20Fan%20Disconnect%202.htm --Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dansouth Posted March 26, 2001 Author Share Posted March 26, 2001 I applied Phil's modification to my AW. It's quite easy, and the results are very impressive. The AW runs very quietly. Not quite as quiet as when I had the power disconnected from the drive as a whole, but still quiet enough to use open mics in the same room as the AW. I toyed with the idea of an external drive, but the added inconvenience would not be worth the minute reduction in ambient noise. In short, Phil's procedure comes highly recommended if, like me, you can't tolerate noisy gear OR a lot of inconvenience. Note: even if you have the drive mounted in an external case, you can still benefit from this modification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip OKeefe Posted March 27, 2001 Share Posted March 27, 2001 Dansouth said: >>Note: even if you have the drive mounted in an external case, you can still benefit from this modification. << Absolutely! Remember, SCSI cables should be kept as short as practical, so even in an external case the drive is likely to be in the same room as you and the AW. The case might attenuate a bit of the noise, but likely has a vent in the fan location anyway, similar to the AW having a vent on the back for the primary AW fan. (which you should NOT attempt to disconnect!) I want to stress what Lee mentioned: Yamaha has personally told me that they have had a AW with a stock CD-RW (fan disconnected) running for months now, and have experienced no problems whatsoever. I personally have two AW4416's with the CD-RW's disconnected and have experienced no problems either. Yamaha has also said that while they can not recommend disconnecting the fan (due to UL and legal / liability issues) doing so will not void either the AW4416 or CD-RW warranties, and I have heard that they've actually been "pointing" users who call tech support over the fan issue to the URL for the mod. Of course, if you damage the CD-RW while doing the mod, you're responsible and Yamaha would probably not cover the damage under warranty, but it's a VERY easy mod and can be done by just about anyone in under 15 minutes using nothing but a screwdriver. Thanks Lee and Dan for the nice comments. Phil O'Keefe Sound Sanctuary Recording Riverside CA http://members.aol.com/ssanctuary/index.html email: pokeefe777@msn.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anderton Posted March 27, 2001 Share Posted March 27, 2001 I wonder if there's any way to simply slow the fan down so that air continues to circulate, but it doesn't make as much noise. Craig Anderton Educational site: http://www.craiganderton.org Music: http://www.youtube.com/thecraiganderton Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/craig_anderton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Flier Posted March 27, 2001 Share Posted March 27, 2001 Craig, it could probably be done, but it's probably not worth the trouble. The box absolutely does NOT get hot without the CDR fan, even when it's been burning backups for a couple of hours straight. The internal fan on the AW itself is pretty quiet. I definitely have no issues with recording in the same room with it now. --Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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