LAP 4.6.2,DP 3.0 or PT Mix

[semitone]

I just bought a G4(350 Sawtooth,384 RAM,Adaptec 29160,Cheetah 18.1) and i am looking for a "do-all" solution.I mainly produce jingles,but i also do my own "electronic-with-real-instruments-and -vocals-on-top" music.Used to work on a PC(VST,Sound Forge,etc).Considering the high cost of PT Mix Plus,how do LAP or DP compare?Which has better sounding plugs?Which one do you prefer and why?Thanks in advance.

[Anderton]

LAP and DP users are some of the most loyal in the world. They're sort of like non-obnoxious fanatics. Both companies have a history of upgrading. Probably the biggest difference is that the MOTU plug-in format is not as universal as Logic's ability to accept VST plug-ins. However, that difference has been negated with Spark, which can run as a MAS plug-in within MOTU, thus allowing the use of VST effects.

 

It will be interesting to see how the two sides respond.

[alphajerk]

isnt DP3 vst compatible now? [or when it comes out?]

 

also PT import/export!

[Philip OKeefe]

I started my computer sequencing with a Atari ST and C-Lab (Emagic's old distributor's name) Notator back in 1988, and while I have used just about every other sequencer on the planet at one time or another (some more than others) I still see no reason to change from Logic Platnium.

 

Yeah, the learning curve's a bear but that's because it's so powerful. I've avoided it pretty much by getting all the upgrades and learning the new stuff bit by bit as the program has grown, but I can see where people can get lost in it sometimes.

 

Most of the high end sequencers (DP, Logic, Cuebase) are pretty much equal in many respects... I think it's just a matter of preference and working style.

 

I've managed to avoid having to buy PT so far, and while it's a cool program, I've got too much invested in DirectX plug ins (I have a PC) to make the jump back to Mac and TDM for the time being.

 

I prefer native stuff. Get a fast computer, a pair of fast HDD's and lots of RAM and go with it. I get nervous about buying hardware that's exclusive to one company, and when you can't run the software without their hardware.

 

One other thing about Pro Tools: If you're doing digital audio, it's a killer program, but the sequencing in 5.01 isn't as capable as the other programs we've all mentioned. I think 5.1 will improve on that, but they've got a long way to go IMHO to catch up with Logic.

 

Loyal? Yeah, I've been using their products for over 12 years, and countless updates on three platforms, and I still love it.

 

Just my .02 cents worth.

 

 

Phil O'Keefe

Sound Sanctuary Recording

Riverside CA http://members.aol.com/ssanctuary/index.html

email: pokeefe777@msn.com

[alphajerk]

is logic vst compatible? TC has got that powercore coming out...... mmmmmm, and apparently it can run any vst plugin?

[Anderton]

>>is logic vst compatible? TC has got that powercore coming out...... mmmmmm, and apparently it can run any vst plugin?<<

 

Logic is VST compatible. There have been some problems with VST instruments and MIDI controllers, but that will be fixed with V4.7, when they overhaul the automation engine.

 

I believe that software has to be adapted to work with the PowerCore, so whether your favorite plug-in will be PowerCore compatible depends on a variety of factors - success of the card, availability of programmers, etc.

[merlinmerlinsound.de]

Logic 4.7 does NOT have the automation overhaul we´re all waiting for.

That seems to be in 5.0 (Frankfurt Messe...?).

 

Peter

 

This message has been edited by merlin@merlinsound.de on 01-30-2001 at 06:59 AM

[soapbox]

Well, I have them all: Logic Audio, ProTools, Digital Performer, and Cubase VST (and Studio Vision, R.I.P.). There are three reasons for that: 1) I need to be compatible and flexible with other people with whom I share work, 2) crossgrades are relatively cheap, and 3) each program does cool things that the others dont.

 

In concept, five years ago, I liked Logic Audio best. It had the most bells and whistles of any of these programs. However, over the years, the things I liked best about Logic Audio (Screensets, nested folders in the arrange window, assignable key commands) became handled equally well or better in Digital Performer (Windowsets, the takes feature, assignable key commands coming in DP 3.0). Also, I cant warm up to the object oriented approach to sequencing that Logic uses: if you want to copy the middle four bars of an eight bar object, you must first cut the object twice in order to free those bars from it. Cut, Copy, and Paste are the things I do most often in editing MIDI data and Logic slowed me down too much in that area.

 

Of course, if you were a Cubase user on the PC, this way of working will make a lot of sense to you and then I highly recommend Logic Audio. It is still more flexible than any other program: 1) its compatible with the most audio and MIDI interfaces, 2) unlike Cubase, it supports TDM, 3) unlike Performer, it has assignable key commands (due in Performer sometime this year), and 4) unlike ProTools, it has excellent MIDI features.

 

Otherwise, I find Performer to be the most natural and easy to use for its MIDI features and ProTools to be the most natural and easy to use for its audio features (even in its LE version). If you work by yourself, go with whats easy and natural to you. Theyre all good programs. But, if you plan to hand your work off to professional engineers for mixing, youll want to use ProTools. Every engineer I know wont use anything else! Thats partly because ProTools TDM systems have the best sounding plug-ins (as will any dedicated system such as the upcoming PowerCore VST compatible system). Also, ProTools (& ProTools LE) will have much better MIDI features in version 5.1, which is due any time now (for Mac, PC users will have to wait until later this year which brings me to my last point...).

 

Youll be happy that you switched to Mac: 1) most of these applications are Mac first or Mac only, 2) most high end audio professionals are Mac users: Digidesign reports that although ProTools has been available for PC for several years now, 99 percent of its userbase is still Mac oriented, 3) as mentioned in posts above, TC PowerCore will be available soon for Mac, and later for PC, and 4) there are advantages to one company making both the hardware and software and Apple is the only such company in existence.

[semitone]

Thanks for your really useful advice people!

[Bugs]

VST Wrapper from Audio Ease ($40) works great with DP 2.72.

 

So, to say DP isn't VST capable right now, would be incorrect.

 

I'm using quite a few VST plugs with my DP rig and all is good.

[alphajerk]

but doest the automation work with VST wrapper? i use pluggo for VST plugins and it works great but doesnt support all the features as in a VST system, from the words i read, it makes me assume DP3 will be a fully functioning VST platform as well as MAS.

[Guest]

If you've got a kick-ass Mac - as it seems you do, go with DP. I don't know if it's because their ads have been on the back of both Keyboard and EM for years, but if I weren't a PC guy I'd be a MOTU user. They just have so much going for them, both in the software and hardware worlds. While the VST thing can be an issue, it is being solved; whether by various cheaper mods or by TC's FXMachine or by MOTU themselves. What shouldn't be overlooked is the fact that the MAS plugins can't be had anywhere else! The ones that come with the program are awesome, from the filter/ring mod to the amp sim to the 64bit precision compressor. There are also several MAS plugs that are just phenomenal, especially the KindOfLoud products which are _only_ available for either TDM or MAS. This is much less true for the Logic plug-in format.

 

And as much as I adore Logic and the power of the environment and screensets, I still wish I had the dough to buy a good Mac and DP (and a dual display..) because I feel like it's such a powerful program that's constantly being upgraded. For DP3 it appears there's a realtime Audio to Midi controller function which is not available anywhere else.

 

As far as PT is concerned, I say don't worry about it unless you come to a point where you need to get TDM hardware - which may not happen because of TC's Powercore - or you're working with people who are hard-core PT users. For now, you can download Pro Tools Free and get familiar with the program because chances are you'll have to use it at some point. But since DP (and Logic) will control TDM hardware you don't have to learn PT at the deepest level, just get familiar with it.

 

 

In case you broke the bank with the computer purchase, you should also know that if you buy a MOTU interface (2408mII/1224 etc.) you get a nice starter software called Audiodesk which can get you going for a while and has some nice Motu plugins. Or there's a DP discount when purchased with their hardware (which by the way includes the 828, a new firewire only interface, no PCI card required).

[soapbox]

In case it's relevant, I just found out that ProTools 5.1 has started shipping.

 

This message has been edited by soapbox on 01-31-2001 at 02:48 AM

[alphajerk]

"I believe that software has to be adapted to work with the PowerCore, so whether your favorite plug-in will be PowerCore compatible depends on a variety of factors - success of the card, availability of programmers, etc."

 

the host software [as long as its VSTcompatible] will run a powercore card without the software designers do anything. the VST plugins that can run on the card have to be powercoreVST plugins [24/48bit fixed point algorithms] opposed to VST [32bit floating point algorithms]. TC works is looking to establish an open platform with hopes to extend to other formats in the future.

 

i think its an awesome product and the DAW companies and plugin writers could both extremely benefit from something like this. and at a price point considerably less than digi's dsp...

[semitone]

I worked with both LAP(4.6.1) and DP(2.7) the last couple of days and here are my impressions:

-DP is harder to come to grips with,has excellent plugs(much better than LAP's),smooth automation,and seems a little more powerful-and difficult-than LAP.

-LAP is pretty easy to work with if you 've worked with VST before,has really smart MIDI editing tools,so+so plugs,BUT it's biggest plus point is EXS 24.

So,my new dilemma would have to be like:Should i get Gigastudio for my trusty PC,and use it along the Mac w/ DP,or get LAP for the Mac and just use the PC for mastering?

[robotobonhome.com]

Absolutely use your PC as a GigaDAW. I think everyone should. Once you hear EastWest's Steinway B piano for giga you'll never use another synth box again.

 

-rob

[Steve44]

I agree about using Giga. The Steinway B is phenomenal, sometimes better than a real piano (easier to record), and you can get it bundled with Giga96 for only $400.

 

Originally posted by alphajerk:

the VST plugins that can run on the card have to be powercoreVST plugins [24/48bit fixed point algorithms] opposed to VST [32bit floating point algorithms]

 

As far as I've read, once a plugin is written for Powercore's VST it is then also able to run native in any normal VST. If that's the truth, it's incredible. Another thing that makes it awesome is that it's not just a DSP card, you also get all of TC's TDM-strength plugins! Now if only the Namm rumors that it will be eventually released for PC were true...

[Stephen Fortner]

I'm evaluating Logic right now and have to say the things people on this thread don't like about it are the things I don't like about it. It's object-oriented approach to everything is neato if you're a computer type who wants to make music, but not so great if you're a musician who uses a computer. It's interface, though functional enough, seems downright ugly when I compare it to that sexy screen shot of DP 3.0 that's kicking around the 'net.

A burning question for me is: Does anyone have any information on

- How possible it will be to use the TC Powercore card with DP, via a VST shell or whatnot?

- Does MOTU have something in the "DSP cards for host-based systems" ballpark up their own sleeve?

 

FWIW, Universal Audio / Kind of Loud informs me that though their own "Powered plug-in" card will first be targeted at the VST-PC market, an MAS-Mac version is "under consideration."

 

If I could take advantage of some DSP turbocharging for my dual-CPU G4, and do so under DP 3.0, that'd probably be the tiebreaker.

[Anderton]

>>- How possible it will be to use the TC Powercore card with DP, via a VST shell or whatnot?<<

 

I believe that only the plug-in needs to be rewritten to work with the TC Powercore; the host application just thinks it's another VST plug-in, albeit a really zippy one! The Spark FX machine is MAS-compatible, so the combination SHOULD - I stress should! - work together.

[Scott Fehl]

TC is now supporting MAS with their Powercore DSP board. Tech support told me that everything you need is included with the software that comes with Powercore to make it run under MAS. Check out the TC message board for their official statement.

 

www.tcworks.de

[dansouth]

I switched to Logic about 18 months ago after Opcode went under, and it's been one of the best decisions I've ever made. I tried Cubase, too, but it seemed cold and lifeless compared to Logic.

 

Steep learning curve? Took me about a week to figure it out. How long is the learning curve of the piano? http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif I've noticed two things - first, the default "environment" (MIDI routings) that comes with Logic is overly complicated. Go through their Environment tutorial. In the first lesson, it shows you how to blow away all of that nonsense and build an environment that's streamlined to your setup and the way you work. Sounds complicated, but this will take less than an hour. I create an environment for almost every new song, and it takes me less than three minutes to do so. You can also import the environment of one song into another, so if you have an environment that simulates a blues band or a jazz trio or a string quartet, and you want to write another piece like that, import the environment (takes 10 seconds) and you're ready to go. Just please save the original settings (by making a copy of the AUTOLOAD file) for future reference. If anyone is confused over this, I'll email you a simple environment that you can use as a starting point.

 

The second thing I've noticed is that when Logic seems cumbersome, it's because I'm MAKING it difficult. The program has a zillion features aimed at making your life easier, and most of them are either right in front of you or accessible via (programmable) key commands. You just have to get used to the interface. In Vision, you couldn't do much of anything without going through a menu; Logic has menus, but it also has a lot of useful "commands" built into the desktop.

 

One thing that's a little frustrating about Logic is that it is a "live" environment. If you press CRTL-J when you meant to press SHIFT-J, you may perform some unintended operation. Also, at times I have trouble remembering exactly what I've selected, and I end up doing an operation (quantize, transpose, etc.) over a larger region than I expected. Competing programs have a better UNDO feature, and I'm hoping that Logic will update this soon. What you CAN do is tell it to keep a number of previous versions of your file on disk, almost as good as UNDO if you remember to save frequently.

 

Once you get into Logic, it really becomes a part of the way your think. It's like switching from ice skates to hockey skates - the increased mobility is worth the time it takes to get comfortable with the program.