Putting whole mix through B.B.E - Good or bad idea??

[lloydmurphyhotmail.com]

Howdy!

 

I'd like some help with all round mix sweetening boxes.

 

I used to process my whole mix through the Behringer Ultrafex which had a nice widening effect, but I found that it lost the stereo image somewhat.

 

I now run the mix through a B.B.E 462 (or whatever - Can't remember it's exact number) and I'm wondering if this is a good idea or bad. Should I be running individual parts only through it??

 

Maybe you professionals are laughing at me putting a mix through a cheap processor so, perhaps could reccomend something better (It's noisy as all hell anyway!) - Any other suggestions within the budget of somebody that's not all cheap, but just a bit??

 

My inline setup currently goes:

 

VM200 (Mixer) ---> BBE 462 ---> DBX 386 (amp) ---> DBX Quantum ---(digital)---> Hard disk.

 

Cheers!

 

Lloyd.

[virtual.rayprodigy.net]

I'd say that if you're gonna use it at all,the BBE should be used on the whole mix.The idea of BBE is to split the program into 3 bands and slightly delay the bass and mids relative to the highs,with the intent to overcome phase cancellation problems inherent in lesser speaker designs where the bass sometimes masks the highs.Used judiciously it can improve the overall clarity of a busy mix.

[alphajerk]

dont use a bbe on the whole mix. anything that you hear it "improving" to the overall mix can be fixed properly in the tracks. the only real use i have found for mine is on crappy basses.

[Tedster]

One vote for, one against...

 

I demand a recount...damned butterfly ballots anyway...

[Max Ventura]

I use a SPL Vitalizer, which is the exact competitor of the BBE 462 Sonic Maximizer, knob more, knob less. It greatly widens and brightens the signal that goes thru it, but the effect is much more audible on the whole mix than on individual trax.

When I have it on, and turn it off, it seems like the whole stereo image collapses back onto mono, and a bad mono, too.

I think those machines sound great in the mastering session, where you final-polish your mix. I don't think you can replicate what they do, working solely on trax , as Alphajerk says. On the other hand, it's very easy to overuse and abuse them, and the manual will tell you the same.

[Master Zap]

Many (all?) "sonic enhancers" are intended for spectrally busy things and "clean them up" in various ways. Using an exciter on every track can generate a harsh mess, whereas using an exciter on the entire mix can get nice shimmer on it all.

 

Its like doing multiband compression - the whole point is to do it on the complex signal, so mostly you should do it on the final mix (although I sometimes have done it on drumloops that dominate the mix)

 

/Z

[lloydmurphyhotmail.com]

Thanks All!

 

I guess it's not such a bad piece of kit after all...

 

I've certainly tried turning the BBE off before when I've run a mix through it. It was actually pretty scarey.

 

http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif

 

Lloyd.

 

Ps. Zap, where's that CD you promised you Scandinavian Wag...

[Master Zap]

Uh... what CD did I promise to whom? Sorry I have been completely overwhelmed lately and my brain is slowly crawling out of my ear.

 

Anyone who thinks I owe them a CD email me at zap@Master-Zap.com?subject=Hey wheres my CD! and uh drop me an adress or something?

 

/Z

[Ex]

Bad Idea

[lwilliam]

I used to use a BBE for mixes when I was running on analog tape - even then, it's very easy to over-use. Except for fixing a badly recorded bass instrument, I never use mine anymore (went all-digital several years ago). Mine's now collecting dust for the most part.

 

I agree with alpha that virtually anything the BBE does can be (or should be) fixed by properly mixing it, although it could be used as a last resort when you can't remix. It's awfully noisy, tho'.

 

 

 

------------------

Larry W.

[alphajerk]

it is totally true about fixing it in the mix and not on the buss concerning a BBE. now a GML parametric mastering EQ and dynamic processor is another story.

 

i WILL use my BBE in the entire mix when printing ROUGH mixes to cassette for listening to in my car when im not in the mood to create a CD. cassettes suck for their sound [especially in the highs] where it helps out my crappy tape deck but im making NO JUDGEMENTS whatsoever at that point about sonics, just arrangement.

[Punchmo]

My first experience with the "enhancers" was a BBE, live on our female vocalist. It did wonders for her and so when I started my studio, I added a Dualfex II, and an Aphex unit thinking that they could fix anything...they don't. The only time I turn any of them on now is to try out of desperation to create something that just ain't there to start with.

 

I also have a SPL Vitalizer and have used it in the past on the 2 track output to dat on a few down and dirty demo mixes for first time studio bands with no budget for anything beyond tracking a bunch of songs one day and mixing them all the next day. The knobs on this piece have some serious and dramatic effect...real easy to mess up everything.

 

Now use a Finalizer instead.

 

IMHO, it is way better to get it going on with the individual tracks.

sp

[Imperial]

The bbe is a pure marketing bullshit piece of gear. Don't use it. If you are releying on some phasing and EQ shelving to fix your mix, start mixing again.

[jfinevog]

I have one but gave up on useing it a few years ago when a really good mastering guy gave me such shit for putting my mix through it. He said everything it does he can do better and when you use it , it gives hem less options later.

[Max Ventura]

You guys killed the poor thing dead.

I don' t really think it sucks, certainly you can easily overuse it so that it sounds unnatural and harsh, but really, what the SPL (my direct experience) and the BBE (I guess) do is MOSTLY enhance and widen the stereo image ( how they do it, with phase or whatever, is not my concern) and THEN give better definition and outline to the existing sounds within the mix. The mix will ALWAYS dramatically improve in widht and definition when enhanced in this way (if that's the effect that you want), but if you go beyond scale 5 on the SPL dial, the effect becomes too stretched and way too brilliant, and that's not good.

The SPL will also do some specialized EQ, don't know about the BBE, but that's the part I never use.

One more thought: a lot of you guys mentioned the word "FIX"; I don't think these device are meant to "fix" anything, like an EQ proper or a limiter would do; I spoke with the SPL head-engineer and he told me that their device was intended to be an "add-on" to give an extra depth and spaciousness to some mixes, and that it should be the very last device in the signal path before hitting the mastering deck, because any dynamics processor situated next would work against it.

 

This message has been edited by argomax on 01-20-2001 at 10:06 AM

[Guest Room Warrior]

In the early days here, I used a BBE on most mixes because it sounded "better." As we learned more about tracking, mixing and noise, we gradually stopped using it on the whole mix, and eventually sold it in in The Great Gear Purge of '96. I don't think it's a substitute for proper technique, but I wish I had kept it and used it as Alphajerk does... as a "cassette enhancer." In those instance where a client insists on having a cassette of a demo, it would be nice to "sparkle" the tape a little.

 

This message has been edited by Guest Room Warrior on 01-22-2001 at 08:09 AM

[Electrox]

That is good advice. I use in for lining in electric guitars. Other than that, I always "hear" the unit (too harsh) for anything but cassette mixes.

[Anderton]

Enhancers were born in the days of analog, where losing highs was a constant problem. Tapes self-erase, and if you run a tape enough times, you'll definitely lose high end. An enhancer can help out.

 

But what I find curious is that if someone thinks it sounds better, he might as well use it! I think what the anti-BBE faction is saying is that 1) if the mix needs enhancement, maybe the mix isn't good enough and 2) there are better ways to do what a BBE is. I agree with both points, and as with other posters, I have a BBE sitting in the corner gathering dust. But it can do good things to some mixers, and if it doesn, so much the better. For this kind of device, though, I'll take the Aphex C2. I like the way it can push bass as well as treble, although I haven't used it in years. Maybe I should dust it off and re-evaluate it.

[Max Ventura]

But then I was speaking mostly about the SPL, 'cause I don't own a BBE, and what the SPL mainly does is enhancing the stereo image, not enhancing trebles and boosting frequencies. I mean, it does that too, but I keep that function off. I mostly like the wide and deep ambience (not reverb) that it gives to the mix without sucking the punch out of it (unless you push it to 10).

[dhmusicmindspring.com]

I used to use one until I started hearing what it was doing to my mixes, listening to them on various systems.

I'd say lose it.

[Curve Dominant]

This is odd: the folks on the MP3 thread have been bugging me to post something, and since I don't want to release any new stuff before I've gotten it to market, I dug up an old CD I recorded back in '95. It was done at Silicon Chip here in Illy, on 24 track analog, and they had a BBE in their rack. When it was time to mix down, I said, "Should we try putting it through that chumpy?" and the lead engineer turned to me with one of those looks, and said, "We'll try it, but you have to be VERY CAREFUL with these things." We hooked it up so the entire mix was going through it, and there were some pensive moments when we were experimenting with the settings, and some controversial opinions being thrown around over how much was too much. I could clearly see how one could fuck up a mix with it, but when we got the settings to where we all agreed they were "just right," Mike, the lead engineer, gave me an "A/B" test. As the producer on that gig, I had the final say, so everyone was looking at me, and in the middle of the a/b testing proceedure I suddenly looked around at everyone and yelled, "Stop looking at me!!!" I was half- kidding, of course, but it was an important decision to make, because we spent months recording this fantastic ensemble of musicians, and the entire result was going to get played through this one unit, which was going to totally alter the sound of this CD.

 

"Play me a/b once more." Mike plays it. Without: great, if a little unweildy. Bear in mind we had been tweaking the mix for what seemed like an eternity. With: more controlled, but a little too plastic.

 

"Can you just roll off each setting a hair so that the effect is more subtle, to the point before un-noticeable?" Mike winks at me, nods, and turns to the BBE for about 3 minutes. Plays it. I like it. It seemed like a nice coating of polyurathane on a beautiful hardwood floor. We used it.

 

I will always wonder if that was a mistake. But that was 6 years ago, and peeps still compliment that CD, so who the f*ck knows? Just be careful with those jimmy-jams.