Philip OKeefe Posted January 15, 2001 Share Posted January 15, 2001 I've posted this message on GM's forum, but would also like to get the opinions of those who might not check out his area (which is also great). Each manufacturer seems to have their own "sound" (although I admit their mics vary from model to model, and even individual mics of the same model)... but for the sake of discussion... Do you generally prefer Neumanns (U47, U67 U87 M49 KM 84 et al) or AKG (C12 C12a Tele 251 414 460 et al) mics, and why? How would you describe the general sonic differences between AKG's and Neumanns? I'd personally prefer to have some of each (and do) but my locker tends to favor AKG's more than Neumanns. HOWEVER, if you could have only one, what would you chose and why? Phil O'Keefe Sound Sanctuary Recording Riverside CA http://members.aol.com/ssanctuary/index.html email: pokeefe777@msn.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lwilliam Posted January 17, 2001 Share Posted January 17, 2001 Wow, two days and no one answered, so I'll take a shot... My mainstay has been an AKG 414B-ULS, but I recently got a Neumann TLM103. They are as different as you could imagine. You can use different adjectives to describe the same thing depending on whether you like the sound or not. For instance (negatively), I could describe the 414 as "wooly and dull", and the 103 as "shrill and sibilant". On a more positive descriptor, I would never call the Neumann "warm", but I would call the 414 warm. Alternately, I would never call the 414 "pristine" or "present", but I could use those terms for the 103. There's an "in yo' face" aspect about the 414 that I like at times, a gutsy-kind of sound, but there is an "air" and clarity to the 103 that I also like - depending on the song, arrangement, instrument, and/or singer. I've used both successfully, and I'm sure glad I now have more than one to chose from... Just my $.02... ------------------ Larry W. Larry W. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bob Posted January 17, 2001 Share Posted January 17, 2001 Thank you Larry. I wish more posts would give us an evaluation rather than a "it sounds good," which doesn't really say anything. The next thing is to evaluate these mics on the basis of singer (male vs. female) and style (light vs. aggressive). Also it might be helpful to know whether the mic has any use for instruments, primarily acoustic guitar but also drums. Finally, I would also like to see a comment about which mics favor which mediums (tape vs. digital). I would think that those recording on a digital medium would like a mic with some personality rather than one that is transparent. So,thanks again Larry. You are a blessing to these pages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Zap Posted January 17, 2001 Share Posted January 17, 2001 What about the RODE mics? I have an NT3 which sounds very good to me.. description would be present, bright, crisp, detailed. On the verge of too bright but thats what EQ's are for http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif /Z Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip OKeefe Posted January 17, 2001 Author Share Posted January 17, 2001 Wow, I was beginning to think no one had any interest in the topic, which really surprised me. Great comments Larry. I'm thinking of getting a TLM 103, so your comments were very interesting to me. In MY experience, AKG's are usually "brighter" than Neumanns, although I spend most of my '414 time on our Stephen Paul modded C-414 (pre-48) EB, so it's not really a "fair" comparison to "stock" 414's, since the diaphrams are thinner, etc. Since I also have a couple of Telefunken ELA M 251 E's, I can talk from experience a bit about "colored" mics in response to Sir Bob's comments. I use digital almost exclusively, and only run over to analog tape for "coloring". While the '251's have a "colored" sound, they're not the right choice for every singer or every application. My wife sounds better on a Tele, while I prefer the 414 on my voice. Sometimes mics are counter-intuitive. You'd THINK a bright mic would be the correct choice for a dark sounding singer, and a "warm" mic the correct choice for a thin sounding singer, and that's often true, but sometimes the opposite approach will pleasantly surprise you. I suggest experimenting with different things as much as possible until you REALLY know your mics inside and out. As far as color goes, I often prefer a uncolored approach, although I'll use whatever gets the sound I'm after. I grew up (so to speak) on analog 2" 16 and 24 track recorders, and I do like the sound for certain things, but I got really tired of "compensating" what I put in in anticipation of what the machine was going to change on the playback. With digital (especially 24 bit) I consider it "my fault" if it doesn't come back the way I want it. Put what you want in, and generally that's what you get back. (I'M NOT TRYING TO START A ANALOG vs. DIGITAL FLAME HERE FOLKS, I LIKE 'EM BOTH.... http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif ) Having said that, I do like different microphone "colors", but those types of mics are by no means all I use. BTW, contrary to popular belief, not all "Telefunken" mics are made by Neumann. Sure, the Tele U47's are the exact same as the Neumann U47's (except for the name badge), but the Telefunken 251 was OEM'ed by AKG for Telefunken at their request back when Neumann started doing their own distribution in the late 1950's, and Telefunken no longer had a Neumann large diaphram mic in their catalog. The story I once heard was (and I don't know how much truth there is in this) that Telefunken asked AKG to make a mic that would have some traits similar to the AKG C-12, AND the Neumann U47. Personally, I think that may have some truth to it, since the U47 is a notorious bottom feeder (lots of bottom end and warmth) and the C-12 tends to be more shimmery and pastel colored in its beautiful high end. The 251 (to my ears) is not as bright as the C-12 (even though both use the same capsule, as do the pre P48 414's) and not as dark as the U47. I really think it's the best of both worlds, although because I have G.A.S. and am a gear slut, I'd love to have several of each! Your mileage may vary. I wouldn't mind having a nice U47, U47 FET, M49 and maybe a U67, but with the exception of the U47 FET, those mics are out of my price range. I'll probably have to settle for a TLM 103 and a '147. BTW, has anyone used the 147 much out there? Opinions? Thanks for your comments. Phil O'Keefe Sound Sanctuary Recording Riverside CA http://members.aol.com/ssanctuary/index.html email: pokeefe777@msn.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip OKeefe Posted January 17, 2001 Author Share Posted January 17, 2001 Master Zap said: >>What about the RODE mics?<< Well, my reason for posting was to see what people thought of the two traditional main "players" in the microphone world, but I didn't mean to be exclusionary or elitist, and I certainly use other brands of mics. For example I still think the best band for the buck mic in the world is a Shure SM57, but I'm sure a lot of people would disagree. I was just wondering if people generally heard a specific AKG sound" or "Neumann sound", and if so, which did they prefer, and why. I have not tried the NT3, so your comments are certainly welcomed by me, since I'm always interested in what different mics sound like and what people use them for, placement, et cetera. I have used the NT2 a few times and I found it to be a pretty nice sounding mic. The one time I tried a NT1, I was very pleasantly surprised by how good it sounded for such an inexpensive mic. I do agree that the Rodes tend towards the bright side of things though. I wouldn't really want one as my "only" mic, although it would be a nice mic for someone using a limited bandwidth analog recorder. Phil O'Keefe Sound Sanctuary Recording Riverside CA http://members.aol.com/ssanctuary/index.html email: pokeefe777@msn.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Zap Posted January 17, 2001 Share Posted January 17, 2001 Well I am in no way shape or form a mic expert. I just got a RODE NT3 for the vocals I record. In a garage. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif Thats all I use it for so I wouldn' know. I DO know that it beats the crap out of the taiwanese $20 piece of shit microphone I had before. And thats before you even turn it on... http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif The clarity is amazing and the noise is where? Nowhere. /Z Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lwilliam Posted January 17, 2001 Share Posted January 17, 2001 I'm no mic expert, either, but keep in mind that the 414B-ULS is a totally different animal from the 414-TLII and the EB (P48?). I once tried to overdub some (female) vocals that had been recorded with the TL-II using my B-ULS, and the difference there was also marked (besides the different acoustic environments). I had to add several db of high end (don't recall the frequency) to get them to match. I would think that the TLII would be closer to the TLM103 than the B-ULS as they're both transformerless. Re instruments, I'm currently working on a finger-picked ballad using an acoustic guitar and wanted an extremely warm "up close and personal" sound (a la Brian White). I tried my three primary mics: A/T 4041, 414, and TLM103. I nixed the 103 as too bright - FOR THIS RECORDING and arrangement - and did a track with the 4041, which sounded nice. However, I'm going to go back and try the 414 again to see if I can get the sound just a bit warmer. When I overdub some strummed parts during the chorus, I may switch back to the 103 - to get a significantly different sound. BTW, I found a great way to get rid of string noise: a de-esser. It works wonderfully. ------------------ Larry W. Larry W. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bob Posted January 19, 2001 Share Posted January 19, 2001 Let's stop for a moment and focus on the 414. How many different types are they and what is their best usage? What is their connection to a C12? Which ones are the ones to get and which ones to avoid? What is a Stephen Paul modded C-414? It seems that a 414 is one of the more essential mics to have in a home studio. I suspect the ability to have different patterns is valuable although in a home studio cardiod is probably all you can get away with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip OKeefe Posted January 19, 2001 Author Share Posted January 19, 2001 Sir Bob said: >>Let's stop for a moment and focus on the 414. How many different types are they and what is their best usage? What is their connection to a C12? Which ones are the ones to get and which ones to avoid? << Lots of questions! while I am by no means an expert, I'll give it a shot. The C-414 has come out in various versions over the years, and is a direct decendent of the AKG C-12 and C-12a. The early C-412's and C-414's used the same (CK-12, I think) capsule as the C-12. After the early 80's (I think, when the P48's came out) they changed the capsule to some sort of teflon housed monstrosity that's supposed to be different sounding and much harder (impossible?) to modify. There's currently (again, I think) the B-ULS and TLII versions on the market. The TL's are supposed to sound more like the C-12's than a lot of the other versions. What are they good for? Just about anything! I like them on acoustic guitar, drum overheads and of course, vocals. They're also good on guitar amps (distant or room mic'ing is something I use them on a lot) as well as hand percussion. It's one of the best "all around mics" you can get. There's a long thread on either George Massenberg's or Roger's or Ed's forum regarding all the different '414's, so you might want to do some digging and check that out, because we all went into some detail regarding the different versions and what we did / did not like. >>What is a Stephen Paul modded C-414?<< A mic that you (and I, for that matter) can't afford! Seriously, it's a stock AKG that has been "worked over" by mic guru Stephen Paul of Stephen Paul Audio (Burbank CA, I think). He and Klaus Heyne (of German Masterworks) are probably the two foremost experts on old vintage mics, restorations and modifications around. When he's done the mic has a modified (thinner) capsule / diaphram, improved electronics, et cetera. Incredible transient response and tone! Back when this one was modded, the price was around $3,300.00 for the work. I got it from the head of the label I was working for (after doing an album that he thought turned out particularlly well) as a gift. If it wasn't for being VERY fortunate and blessed, I wouldn't have that mic, nor my two Telefunken ELA M 251 E's - I could never have afforded them! Not that I want to give them up or anything! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif >>It seems that a 414 is one of the more essential mics to have in a home studio. I suspect the ability to have different patterns is valuable although in a home studio cardiod is probably all you can get away with.<< Most engineers use multi-patterns in cardiod 90% of the time (or more). I occasionally will use bi-directional for 2 singers on one mic (background vocals) or other such purposes, and occasionally on drum overheads to pick up some "room" sound, although I have a pretty good sounding tracking room, and you wouldn't want to do that at home if your acoustics were problematic. The C-414 is a good choice for your "only" large diaphram condenser if you can have only one at home. You could do a lot worse. Again, I'm not the real expert, but most of this should be fairly accurate. Would write more, but I'm on a break (in mid-session) so it will have to wait. Hope this helps. Phil O'Keefe Sound Sanctuary Recording Riverside CA http://members.aol.com/ssanctuary/index.html email: pokeefe777@msn.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alphajerk Posted January 19, 2001 Share Posted January 19, 2001 if i can step out of the akg neumann discussion for a moment i just have two comments while we are talking about different mics. first, on my voice the royer r121 sounds better than anything else and second, my crown cm700 has been consistantly whipping the sm57 on guitar tracks lately. it was just something that came to mind about not expecting what will work right. my voice is about as deep as they go and the royer is quite a dark mic. on guitar you would think that the extra kick @ 5khz that the 57 has would be beneficial over a more flat response of the cm700 [in comparison] the voice though is so important to me in having the right mic, it just kills me sometimes that i dont have more variety when doing vox. other times, the voice fits just right with one of my mics. mics are one thing you need in variety [along with pre's but thats another thread] alphajerk FATcompilation "if god is truly just, i tremble for the fate of my country" -thomas jefferson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip OKeefe Posted January 19, 2001 Author Share Posted January 19, 2001 Alphajerk said: >>if i can step out of the akg neumann discussion for a moment i just have two comments while we are talking about different mics. first, on my voice the royer r121 sounds better than anything else and second, my crown cm700 has been consistantly whipping the sm57 on guitar tracks lately. it was just something that came to mind about not expecting what will work right. my voice is about as deep as they go and the royer is quite a dark mic. on guitar you would think that the extra kick @ 5khz that the 57 has would be beneficial over a more flat response of the cm700 [in comparison] the voice though is so important to me in having the right mic, it just kills me sometimes that i dont have more variety when doing vox. other times, the voice fits just right with one of my mics.<< Hey Alpha, thanks for the comments. I have not tried the Royers yet, but everyone I know that has said that they love 'em. I really like ribbons. The only one I have is a Beyer M160, although I'd love a couple of old RCA's. Maybe I'll have to get one of Wes Dooley's DX44 recreations, and I definitely want to check out the Royers. If you don't mind me asking, what are they going for? As far as mics surprising you as in "dark vocal working well with a dark mic", I find that I get surprised that way too on occasion. Sometimes it's the last mic that you THINK will work that provides just the right color. Go figure! I still love and use '57's on guitars frequently, and sometimes on snare, but I have an old AKG D-1000 E that I really was surprised with when I used it on snare.. I like it even better than a '57 a lot of the time. My philosophy is: Who cares if it's an unusual mic or application - as long as you like the tone and the client is happy, go with it, Maybe you'll start a trend. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif >>mics are one thing you need in variety [along with pre's but thats another thread]<< I have about thirty mics in my locker, and am always interested in more. At this point there's a couple of the "usual suspects" that I'd like to get, but beyond that, I'm always looking for not so usual, but interesting mics. Pre's, well that IS another thread, http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif but I agree. you can never have too many. I'd like a couple of Telefunken V76's and a pair of Neves. I like pre's in pairs, just in case I want to run a stereo pair. Again, I agree: different colors for different things. Like spices in cooking or colors in painting. Tools. Yes, I suffer from G.A.S. (Gear Aquisition Syndrome) - much to my wife's regret! I always enjoy your comments. Take care! Phil O'Keefe Sound Sanctuary Recording Riverside CA http://members.aol.com/ssanctuary/index.html email: pokeefe777@msn.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 24, 2001 Share Posted January 24, 2001 Hi , very interesting read so far. I bought a C3000 a few months ago, I've since used it on acoustic guitar, in front of my GK guitar amp, vocals, tabla drums, chimes and other various percussion gadgets, and it comes through very nicely in all applications. It was also my first "real" mic, hence the varied usage ! Yorkville Sound has a few new models out that EASILY rival the Euro model condensers and dynamics. I picked up a pair of their 190 card. pencil condensers and they are shockingly articulate for a $95 (Cdn)condenser mic. A bit obvious on the proximity effect but great sounding on acoustic guitar. That's my "sounding board", how well does it translate an acoustic guitar. Although the list of "drool tools" grows every day, my bank account does not, I'm very happy with my inexpensive mic.'s and proud to brag about how LITTLE I paid for them ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alphajerk Posted January 24, 2001 Share Posted January 24, 2001 i just bought a Souldelux U99 and cant wait for it to get here. im immediately putting it through its paces. i was debating between that one and their U195 [which if i like the U99 will be definately picking up soon after] hopefully it will get here tomorrow [if they can find my house!?! which i would be trucking down to the central office to get it!] i have an AKG C4000b and a D112. i use the D112 on kick religiously but am searching now for a mate to it [hence the Soundelux U195 interest] dont really like the C4000b at all now that i have one but in the store it sounded better than the TLM103. i find my crown CM700 sound way better on guitar than the 57 does, maybe i should put it on the snare [where my 57 usually goes]. i dont really like neumanns much. i've used a U47fet, U87, KM8[X], M147, M149 all on various projects when they are available but there always seems to be something i like better on my MAIN sources and usually become my secondary mics. my mic collection isnt that big yet and is growing slowly as im very reluctant on what i buy these days. akg and neumanns are usually overlooked in my choices as im not a fan of either of their current lines. i would rather get the AT series [4060, 4050, 4047]. im wanting the other royer mics [dual sp12's matched for stereo or mono work] and wouldnt mind getting my hands on a manley to try out. i wonder what happened with B&K now that they are DPA, would like to try some of those. a coles ribbon. i doubt ill ever be able to afford a brauner. id be keen on trying out a CAD VSM1[?] and some BLUE mics. i need some more $$$! and i havent even started on pre lust yet! i already know what my next one will be as soon as i save up $3500... even know the serial number i want. alphajerk FATcompilation "if god is truly just, i tremble for the fate of my country" -thomas jefferson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alon Posted January 24, 2001 Share Posted January 24, 2001 I'm also no expert on mics, but here's my 2 cents. Don't really care for the 414. Too bright/harsh sounding for me. There's a few vocalists that It might work on, but in general, I'd much rather have a Neumann (even the fet), if I could only choose 1 allround vocal mic. The C12 I do like a lot. Of course it depends on the voice, but it's tube driven, and the highs are nicer sounding than on the 414. I wouldn't choose a C12 as my one and only mic though. It's more exotic. I have to say that almost no 2 mics sound the same. Especially ones that have been used for years in a Pro Studio enviorment. If a studio has 4 U87's then 2 might sound ok, and 2 might sound funky. If you're doing a session in a studio that has multiple mics of the same model, then it's common practice to note the serial numbers on the Track sheet, to ensure that you get the same sound, on your next session. Of course this is based upon the assumption that some intern hasn't dropped the mic inbetween the sessions ! Mics are like monitors though: Ask 10 people and get 10 different opinions back. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip OKeefe Posted January 24, 2001 Author Share Posted January 24, 2001 A friend of mine (a drummer) reciently knocked over a U47 tube mic at a major LA studio. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/eek.gif Out of respect for the studio and my friend, I'm not going to mention any names, but the studio manager as quite unhappy, to say the least. She called the band in to "discuss it". Boy were they sweating bullets, especially the guilty party. Fortunately, no damage was done, and the manager was more upset with the AE who left the thing out on a stand when it should have been tucked safely away in the mic locker. But my friend was pretty worried for a day or so! Phil O'Keefe Sound Sanctuary Recording Riverside CA http://members.aol.com/ssanctuary/index.html email: pokeefe777@msn.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alphajerk Posted January 24, 2001 Share Posted January 24, 2001 called the band into discuss it? what the hell is that? thats the studios problem, its not like the purposefully kicked it over. i dont even want to imagine the circumstances surrounding that incident. alphajerk FATcompilation "if god is truly just, i tremble for the fate of my country" -thomas jefferson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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