johnnyproaol.com Posted January 14, 2001 Share Posted January 14, 2001 Looking for tips to get punchier drum sounds on my 16 track Analog recordings. Mainly looking to get the snare cleaner and higher in the mix. Playing Rock music and looking for an acoustic drum sound. I'm using an SM-57 now with no compression or gating. Is that the answer? If so how do you do it??? I'm using a Mackie 24*8 board. I've also thought of using electronic drums (an Alesis DM5 or D4 and real cymbals) instead of my kit (Premier XPK's with a number of snares) Whattya all think????? Thanx!!!!!! JP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donriversound.com Posted January 14, 2001 Share Posted January 14, 2001 What kind of snare are you recording? A great 6" body stage snare will sound like shit on a studio recording. Too deep in tone, too heavy in sizzle from the snare springs. Try a piccolo snare. They cut like a knife on tape, and, extremely easy to record. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnyproaol.com Posted January 14, 2001 Author Share Posted January 14, 2001 I have a Wood premier Snare, a Chrome Premier snare, and a '60's gretsch Chrome over Brass snare. The wood Premier (which I just got)records the best. JP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pro Jules Posted January 14, 2001 Share Posted January 14, 2001 Trading up to a pro mic pre is a huge step forward.... 4 for kick, snare and stereo overheads helps enormously. Mackie have even superceded the pre's on your board with the VLZ series. Pro's in big studios, bypass the $100k desk and use stuf like this. I suggest getting out the Ski mask, hit a bank, they buy an API 4 channel mic pre. Use it as I recomended then on every subsequent overdub, you will be a happy camper. Cheaper would be a 4 ch HHB Radius (TLA) mic pre unit, a more afordable 'trade up' for you. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif Jules Jules Producer Julian Standen London, UK, Come hang here! http://www.gearslutz.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donriversound.com Posted January 14, 2001 Share Posted January 14, 2001 Ok, I 've got a feel for the accoustic sound...time to play. Take you delay toy, and, set it up for one repeat 750 ms from the original signal. Set the repeat factor to infinity. Take a reverb unit, and, set it for a warm, long delay. Boost 60 hz on your snare EQ. Boost 2000hz also. Cut 100-200hz as low as you can. Play with those frequencies until they sound good. Depending on the snare, this will be a "fiddle factor". Thats a start. You can take it a long way from there! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punchmo Posted January 14, 2001 Share Posted January 14, 2001 johnnypro, I'm not a pro but, I have been able to get drummers grinning and wantin' to hug me. Against many opinions, I do compress snare and kik to (digital) tape. I use outboard pres for all drum tracks. On snare, it's a SM 57 through a neve 9098 mic pre/eq to a 1176. If its a piccolo, I usually don't eq..if it is a deeper snare, usually do. This signal is fed to the 1176 with an attack to allow the full hit to come through. The kik gets the another 9098 into a tube compressor. All the compressor settings are minimal in most cases (more or less) and, with this signal to tape, the sound is bigger, better, punchier, whatever! The rest of the drum tracks go thru a Precision True 8. On mix down, I send the drums to a stereo buss and compress again, mixed with the original tracks. However, the player is the most important element. Hitting a tuned drum in the same spot, with the same velocity, every time, goes a long way to toward a good drum sound http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif The eq during mixdown for all drum tracks is as needed. I know the stuff mentioned above is rather expensive but, I started my studio 6 years ago with a Mackie 24 x8 with a 24 channel expander and now only use it for monitoring. Just waiting for a few more companies to announce their new shit before upgrading. Julian's reply of upgrading your mic pres will make a huge difference...believe it! IMHO, sp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punchmo Posted January 14, 2001 Share Posted January 14, 2001 Oh Yea, Johnnypro, I never use gates when I track drums! sp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alphajerk Posted January 14, 2001 Share Posted January 14, 2001 the same. good pres make a world of difference. assuming the drummer is good. i just put the mic where it glows. i cant explain it but usually when you move a mic around any sound source, there is always one place where it just sounds so sweet. but the drummer really makes a difference. i can mic a kit where its hummin with a good drummer and then i get behind it and it just sounds like shit http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif alphajerk FATcompilation "if god is truly just, i tremble for the fate of my country" -thomas jefferson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anderton Posted January 14, 2001 Share Posted January 14, 2001 A couple tips, once you have the drum itself, mic, mic pre, and the drummer squared away. If you use compression, make sure you have some attack time dialed in - around 5 to 10 ms. This preserves the transient. Or, if you're daring, clip the initial transient a bit. This generates a "splat" of harmonics that really cuts. I've even drawn in transients on drum samples to create this effect. A little upper mid EQ will enhance the "snap" of the snare. The suggestion of 2K makes sense, but you might try using a VERY broad EQ so it covers the 2 - 4 kHz octave. Sometimes room acoustics contribute to a feeling of punch. I'll use a Loudness Maximizer to bring them up a bit without destroying the peaks. Craig Anderton Educational site: http://www.craiganderton.org Music: http://www.youtube.com/thecraiganderton Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/craig_anderton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fletcher Posted January 15, 2001 Share Posted January 15, 2001 Originally posted by johnnypro@aol.com: Looking for tips to get punchier drum sounds on my 16 track Analog recordings. Why do I have a feeling that you're talking about a 1" 16 track deck that probably hasn't been aligned since the Senate majority was held by the Democrats? Mainly looking to get the snare cleaner and higher in the mix. Higher in level? Move the fader away from you. Higher in pitch? Turn the lugs on the drum 'clockwise'. Playing Rock music and looking for an acoustic drum sound. I'm using an SM-57 now with no compression or gating. Is that the answer? It's an answer, for some it's the answer, for others it's not. If so how do you do it??? It can't really be taught, but it can be learned. Experimentation, listening, more experimentation, repeat until old, or bored whichever comes first. I'm using a Mackie 24*8 board. Well, there's a good part of your problem...don't run it too hard, you can run out of headroom with one of those things by looking at it funny. [/b] I've also thought of using electronic drums (an Alesis DM5 or D4 and real cymbals) instead of my kit (Premier XPK's with a number of snares) Whattya all think?????[/b] I think you'd be copping out like a pussy by going to "electronic drums" when you say you're looking for an "acoustic drum" tone/feel/vibe. That said, what I think is unimportant as it's not my music, nor my presentation of someone else's music. It's your gig, do it to the best of your ability and you'll be fine. Best of luck. ----- Fletcher Mercenary Audio http://www.mercenary.com Fletcher Mercenary Audio Roscoe Ambel once said: Pro-Tools is to audio what fluorescent is to light Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnyproaol.com Posted January 21, 2001 Author Share Posted January 21, 2001 Thanx for all the replies. I'm gonna try most/all of the lower cost options for now and see if that makes a difference. (I really can't replace my board or preamps at this point). I'll let you know how I make out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Sayers Posted January 21, 2001 Share Posted January 21, 2001 http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif Fletcher - It's good to see someone offering and alternative to changing your FUCKIN' preamp. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif cheers john This message has been edited by John Sayers on 01-21-2001 at 10:07 AM Studio Design Forum Studios Under Construction Home Page Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fletcher Posted January 21, 2001 Share Posted January 21, 2001 John, all kidding aside, the preamp will have less of an effect than the tone of the actual instrument, followed by microphone placement, and finally proper gain staging on the way to the storage device. To me, things like mic pre's are like the paint of a car. It falls into the scheme of priority somewhere after "are the motor, drive train, and suspension good". Once it's determined that the car can indeed operate worth a damn, then I'd start looking at the finer points of detail. Yes, the Mackie desk is going to be a damned inconvenience to the guy...but...if he learns to get a good tone using those tools, when he actually obtains some good tools, life will be a dream. I realize your comment was 2/3rd's a joke, but frankly, there are too many people that dispense advice like that. The hardware comes in two catagories, 'meat & potatos'; and 'embellishment'. The set up he has now is a 'meat & potatos' setup. It will do the job, though the finer points can certainly be done better. The fact of the matter is the ideas can be transfered from the air to a storage medium. The finer points of how it will sound once captured will have more to do with the brother's 'technique' than the hardware he employs. Once that 'technique' is learned and established...the "better tools" is just icing on the cake. Recording studios are like any other instrument. It takes years to really learn to play the instrument. You can bang out 'Mary had a little Lamb' on your first day with the instrument, but that doesn't make you a "player" by any stretch of the imagination. Put a $20 pawn shop 'beginner guitar' in the hands of Eddie Van Halen, and he'll still play circles around me with the nicest "pre-war D-45"...it's the operator, not the hardware. ----- Fletcher Mercenary Audio http://www.mercenary.com Fletcher Mercenary Audio Roscoe Ambel once said: Pro-Tools is to audio what fluorescent is to light Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alphajerk Posted January 21, 2001 Share Posted January 21, 2001 its all at the source. if the drums suck, no pre or mic is gonna help it. but if the drums are good, i find bad hardware gets in the way of a truely nice sound. just my experience after going from mackie crap to nice pre's made ALL the difference [assuming the source was good to begin with, along with years of funking around with micing techniques] in my recordings. it sure made mixdown a LOT easier. alphajerk FATcompilation "if god is truly just, i tremble for the fate of my country" -thomas jefferson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Sayers Posted January 21, 2001 Share Posted January 21, 2001 It's nice hear someone refer to a studio setup as an instrument. I've always believed I played an instrument and I can play it in lot's of different styles, plus I can also play the old standards. I do find some of these forums go on and on about mic pres as if it was the answer to everything. ------------------ Cheers John Studio Design Site: http://www.lis.net.au/~johnsay/Acoustics Studio Design Forum Studios Under Construction Home Page Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alphajerk Posted January 22, 2001 Share Posted January 22, 2001 "To me, things like mic pre's are like the paint of a car. It falls into the scheme of priority somewhere after "are the motor, drive train, and suspension good". Once it's determined that the car can indeed operate worth a damn, then I'd start looking at the finer points of detail." i thought about this analogy while driving down the road today. mic pres are like having good suspension, mastering is like having a good paintjob. mics are like good tires. the motor is having a good board. a mackie studio is like driving a honda down a nice curvy road, a good studio is like driving a ferrari down a curvy road. somebody who cant drive very well probably would do better driving the honda like grandma, for the rest of us... hell, even my turbo eclipse will smoke the honda cold but it aint gonna keep up with a porsche. alphajerk FATcompilation "if god is truly just, i tremble for the fate of my country" -thomas jefferson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Sayers Posted January 23, 2001 Share Posted January 23, 2001 alpha - I drive my old Honda like a Ferrari and an old grandma, it's all in the mind you know. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif Love the analogy though, and I agree about detailing yet knowing when to drop in or to leave it alone is just as much a detail as good preamps. That's sortta what I meant anyway. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif cheers john Studio Design Forum Studios Under Construction Home Page Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alphajerk Posted January 24, 2001 Share Posted January 24, 2001 well my analogy doesnt work either now that ive thought about it. the cover art is like the paint job, mastering is like the tune up, the mics are the tires, the pres are the suspension, the dynamics are the shock plugs, the eq is the timing, and the board is the motor. maybe. alphajerk FATcompilation "if god is truly just, i tremble for the fate of my country" -thomas jefferson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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