Click versus feel

[Guest]

My band is in the throes of the click versus feel debate. i.e. whether it's better to record tracks to a steady click, or trust the drummer.

 

Firstly, how do you guys do it, particularly the bands? (click, midi controlled tempo-variation, drummer controlled tempo-variation, etc)

 

Secondly, I would think that technology may have a solution, to let the drummer stay in control, but also inform him. I am wondering if there is something out there.... Since tools like Acid have intelligent algorithms to sense BPM from loops. Perhaps there is a tool that you could snd a mike signal to that would try to provide a real-time BPM reading to the drummer. (it need not be perfect: as long as it was accurate 70% of the time, it would not matter if it could not provide a reading 30% of the time)

 

Thanks,

 

Jerry

[Lee Flier]

[i can already hear the groans from all you guys that have already heard my rap before - 'cause you already KNOW what's coming! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif]

 

Jerry,

 

I have always believed in trusting the drummer. I also believe that variations in time are a good thing - perfect time tends to make a recording sound stiff and lifeless. It also usually doesn't bring out the best in the drummer. Drumming is a physical art, and a good drummer is going to be subtly changing his time in response to the music and the other players. This kind of body language isn't something that can be pre-programmed using MIDI variation. What a drummer will do with his body is always a bit different, and more exciting, than what you will think with your brain, ahead of time, will make for a good variation.

 

Of course the one great "advantage" of cutting to a click in perfect time is that if you're doing digital editing, you can cut and paste sections of tracks from different verses, etc. Personally, I don't think the advantage is worth the drawbacks. As both a musician and an engineer I believe the engineer's job is to serve the musicians, not the other way around. If you are sacrificing the performance in order to give the engineer more "control", I believe the priorities have gotten a bit screwed up. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif

 

Yes, there is a high tech device for letting a drummer know what his time is. It's called a "Beat Bug". You hang it on the snare drum rim and it will give you a digital readout of your time. Lots of drummers love them because it settles all those arguments where the singer turns around and says "You were dragging!" I like this device because the musician is driving the machine and not the other way. But, the drummer still shouldn't be TOO hung up on maintaining the exact same time from one part of a performance to the next. If he does use a Beat Bug, he should play with it regularly for awhile so he learns not to get too distracted by it. A quick glance now and then is good enough.

 

Here's a web site of a guy who sells Beat Bugs: http://home.att.net/~drums01/z.html

 

And here's an article from Sound On Sound magazine, written by a drummer, about the constraints of cutting to a click track:

http://www.sospubs.co.uk/sos/nov00/articles/soundingoff.htm

 

OK, now go be nice to your drummer! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif

 

--Lee [and I'm not even a drummer, can you believe that?]

 

 

This message has been edited by Lee Flier on 01-08-2001 at 10:18 AM

[miroslav]

There is also another device called the Russian Dragon available in two versions, very cool!

http://www.russiandragon.com/

 

Hey, all those piano lessons I took, the metronome was always clicking during practice, but never during a recital.

 

Human touch is good, but if the drummer is really smearing it maybe he/she needs to practice a little more with a click.

 

When recording, I always use some form of click to start things off, a reference point, but I find that I can still play "around" the click. It is just there to help focus things.

[Tedster]

For me, I tend to record rhythm guitar first, since our drummer lives a ways off. So, I always lay down a click. Another advantage of using a click is that you can kinda do the tune several times dry, just to get a feel for what groove will work best, and use the click to fine tune it.

 

But, that's me. Whatever works for you. And, keep in mind that you don't always have to do it the same way, either...

[earfatigue]

this is a total 2-way street, and which way us right is case-by-case.

 

first recent example i thought of was ______, we'll call em 'band x'. a local chicago group that's been gaining popularity and recorded with us. a modern-alternative/rockish group that kept things simple and straight-ahead.

 

and did their album almost completely by overdubs. the drummer played to nothing but "TICK-tock-tock-tock" and as a result, the drums both race and lag sections of songs where a little accellerando or ritardando might have been just the thing, but since he was a) not the greatest at playing to a click and b) there was no band to record it with we wound up with some pretty ho-hum performances.

 

had i been the producer (i didn't sign on to this project) they'd have all been in the room. no click. the drummer's timing was fine left to his own devices.

 

on the flip side, i always play to a click, both live and in the studio. i tend to do a lot of drum edits in protools and not having the ability to keep everything on a grid wastes too much time. but that's just me.

 

judson snell www.slangmusicgroup.com

[offramp]

I'm a drummer, and I dig the click. I tend to view it as if I had a third arm doing a cowbell thang. I root myself to the click, then swing around it as necessary or inspired.

Over the years, I've found that many players respect me more and are less prone to friction if they can feel some sense of security knowing that I'm on the click. Generally, I have really good time and feel; even so, I'm not offended if someone wants to use the click. Additionally, somewhere along the way, I've learned how to tune it out on parts that require no time; this isn't the case in EVERY situation where time is meant to float, but most of the time, it works.

Click is my friend. He's not God, but he's my friend. We get along.

[Guest]

I am in the midst of a project as a player/producer. On some of these songs I am wishing I would have put a click down first. On some of the songs the drummer did a fine job, with some tempo variation, but on other of the songs the tempo went too far fast in the solos, and the drums attempted to pull it back afterwards. What I am doing now is taking parts that were ok into Acid and constructing songs there. But it is still costing more and taking longer...

 

I too think you can find the groove in a click if you let yourself, and within that click you can push and pull to create tension in the music as you wish. Your drummer's attitude toward a click will probably be the greatest influence as to whether you use a click or not.

[Guest]

Awesome.

 

Thanks guys. I'll look into these gadgets. Appreciate the different points of view.

 

Cheers,

 

Jerry

[Lee Flier]

The Russian Dragon is a cool device, but my one caveat about it is that it still sort of deigns to tell you when you are "wrong" - that is, when you deviate from the established time. The Beat Bug just tells you what that time IS, and you can do what you want with that information - it passes no judgement on it. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

 

Lots of drummers do have a good attitude about the click, see it as a challenge, etc. Sometimes I will still ask them not to use it. If it makes them uncomfortable NOT to use it, I'll use it. But I do always let drop the notion that maybe they'd be freer and play something cooler without it. And lots of times, they do.

 

Regardless, I do agree that it's a good idea to PRACTICE to a click. Then you have a reference point. I use one to count off the tune a lot, too, and then fade it out once they get going.

 

--Lee