MI Business in Trouble?

[Anderton]

Another post mentioned that there had been layoffs at Line 6. And today, I heard a rumor that Sonic Foundry had laid off 40% of its people. Riffage.com is gone, and I've heard from people in other MI companies, such as software, who are on shaky ground.

 

Is the boom that started with the ADAT and cheap computers over? Is the industry heading for a contraction?

 

How are the stores holding up in your area? Will we be hearing about more layoffs at other companies? Is this going to be a gloomy NAMM or a happy one? Your comments, please...

[Thomas K]

I'd be willing to bet that the Sonic Foundry layoffs were related to audio and not it's "multimedia" side.

 

I'm waiting for them to fold on Vegas Audio -which would be sad because it functions beautifully for tracking. No frills, just get the music done- auto crossfades, etc. But Sound Forge is still not 24 bit. I think they have forgotten who built their house.

 

As far as MI, You can't have two of Guitar Center and Mars in each city and expect to run into anything but diminishing returns as far as profit is concerned. To see them beat each other on already rock bottom prices is eventually going to turn back on the consumer. By that time, Mars will look more like Circuit City and Guitar Center can jack their prices back up for the few that will spend the extra "professional" dollar.

 

From a company POV, the consumer appears to want that. The under $500 market rules MI.

[Philip OKeefe]

Craig Anderton said:

 

>>Another post mentioned that there had been layoffs at Line 6. And today, I heard a rumor that Sonic Foundry had laid off 40% of its people.<<

 

I have a friend who's brother left Alesis and now works at Line 6 (they're in T'Oaks, not TOO far from here, about 80 miles). He's on tour right now, so I can't reach him, but I DID hear over on a US-428 forum at the Tascam website that Sonic Foundry had a poor 4th quarter and was laying off 40% of its people. Yet when I briefly looked at their website today, they're still saying that they're one of the fastest growing music software companies around. Still, on their "Jobs" page, the only thing listed at the moment is "Public Relations Manager". Translation: "Spin Doctor" http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif Doesn't sound too good for them. Not good for me either. I have a US-428, and I'd really like an upgrade of Acid, Sound Forge and Vegas that will allow me to use all those knobs and faders within those programs. With the layoffs, that's increasingly less likely to happen any time soon.

 

Here's a link to the page where I saw the info on SF:

http://www.tascambbs.com/ubb/Forum9/HTML/001287.html

 

>>Is the boom that started with the ADAT and cheap computers over? Is the industry heading for a contraction?<<

 

Well, it looks like the economy in GENERAL is slowing down, and that doesn't really surprise me too much - it couldn't keep growing like crazy indefinitely.

 

Sooner or later we're going to reach a point of market saturation. I mean, really, the tools have gotten SO good, and a lot of "home" users don't see the need to upgrade as much anymore. And the competition's pretty fierce out there.

 

When is it all going to be enough? One of my clients is a physics professor (MIT and Cal Tech grad) and we have all kinds of interesting discussions about recording formats, sample rates, bit resolution etc. We both think that audio won't really need to go beyond 32 bit floating point at 192 KHz. Really good Nyquest filtering would be nice too. When we get there, what are the companies going to do to come up with new goodies to tempt us with? I'm sure innovation will continue, but sooner or later, everything slows down until the next major "revolution". Darwinistic processes within the music industry are inevitable, and that includes everything from artists to software and hardware companies.

 

Look what happened to a lot of mid-level studios after the "ADAT revolution". They went belly up because they couldn't compete and adapt to the changing reality. When musicians realized that they had the option of "doing it themselves" the studios no longer had a monopoly and the ones that offered poor service or quality as often as not disappeared. The ones that diversified into new areas and offered superior service are usually still around.

 

A studio that "sells the gear" is less likely to survive when the musicians can go charge gear of similar capabilities on their Visa card, but those who "sell themselves" are selling a unique asset that can not be duplicated elsewhere.

 

Many musicians eventually realized that doing everything yourself was pretty difficult, and that engineering well required as much commitment to the task as attaining a solid mastery of a musical instrument. A lot of our clients use home studios but come here for things that they either can't do at home (track drums) or for our expertise.

 

I think that some of the software and hardware companies will need to look into additional markets and new paradigms in the future if they want to continue to thrive. I hope they can do it, because I'm always interested in cool new toys that make my job easier or help me do new things in creative ways. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif

 

Phil O'Keefe

Sound Sanctuary Recording

Riverside CA http://members.aol.com/ssanctuary/index.html

email: pokeefe777@msn.com

[Marvster]

According to NAMM's numbers -- which, granted, some say arent that reliable -- MI is doing better than ever. Anecdotal evidence also suggests the market is growing.

 

Regardless, at a certain point manufacturers, retailers, and publishers will run up against the fact that MI can be sliced into only so many pieces -- it's a relatively small industry. And those who decide to tackle alternate consumer channels may be competing against MUCH larger fishes.

 

As for Sonic Foundry and Line 6 layoffs (hadn't heard about Line 6!), keep in mind both of these companies represent fairly new phenomena for MI: a public company and a heavily venture-funded company. The jury's still out on whether MI companies can play nice with shareholders and VCs.

 

Riffage is really a different case -- funded in the hysteria, folded in the aftermath. At least most MI companies have proven business models. ;-)

 

My bet is that MI as a whole is fine. Home runs like ADATs and VS-880s (and PODs and M1s etc. before them) only come along once in a while; the market can't be expected to grow quite as quickly between "revolutions."

 

Marv

[trick fall]

I'd bet the economy overall is gonna tank pretty badly, leaving a lot less disposable cash for MI. Reality has been laughed off for far too long, the stock market will return to historical levels. People's attitudes have all ready changed. The economy is at least 30% psychological and the psychology has turned negative.

[Anderton]

Let me hasten to add that layoffs in and of themselves is not necessarily a bad thing; the focus of companies changes. I don't know about Line 6, I actually think they're doing quite well. But this question is framed in a bigger context. For example, the computer industry is slowing waaaay down, much more than MI. It may just be that high-tech is reaching the saturation point, and people aren't ready to buy new things until they figure out the old ones!

 

As to figures about the strength of MI, I'm sure any figures are several months old. It appears the slowdown is fairly recent. Also, I don't know whether this relates solely to the high-tech end of things or not...perhaps band instruments, for example, are still doing great.

 

Just think of all those politicians who said "The boom will go on forever," and are busy spending the "surpluses" that will be showing up 10 years from now...yeah, right!

[Chip McDonald]

Originally posted by Anderton:

is framed in a bigger context. For example, the computer industry is slowing waaaay down, much more than MI.

 

The whole .com vc thing was so over sold that it HAD to come down eventually. What's dumb is that everyone bases their "reality" on the stock market.

 

For instance, I see Bezos taking a beating for Amazon - yet their doing well, and certainly offering a service that didn't exist prior. Lumping them into the same category of the many hundreds of little useless .coms shouldn't happen, just because the the bubble was inflated so greatly.

 

I think there will be a shakedown and then people will realize which companies have a real future and hopefully stick with them.

 

sure any figures are several months old. It appears the slowdown is fairly recent.

 

The competition has gotten to a point where the attrition rate is 100%. Private stores can't compete with the chain stores selling things for basically their cost. Not only that, but the tiered price mark system prevents many smaller stores from getting a foothold.

 

Combined with the major companies only allowing certain chains from advertising on the net - the inevitable outcome is the Walmart syndrome. Eventually all retail will resemble Walmart, and we'll only have 3 basic colors to choose from. Have fun.

 

I've noticed Christmas shopping this year, already at most places there isn't as many

varied choices as last year. At places like Home Depot and Lowes - the brands for most "accessories" are the same, and there's only one. That's the future.

 

It's funny that the government is going after Gates when the retail MI system is much more whacked out than any scheme MS has come up with.... If the software market was the same as the MI market, the mom and pop stores that are the chief complaint of the anti-MS argument wouldn't have been able to buy Windows at a discount *unless* they bought at a quantity similar to what a Dell or Gateway purchases; and THEN, they wouldn't get it until AFTER the big companies debuted with it.... and THEN they wouldn't be able to advertise that they even sell it. That's the MI business and what's wrong with it.

[Fletcher]

Originally posted by Anderton:

Another post mentioned that there had been layoffs at Line 6.

 

That's not necessarily a bad thing. From what I read of the other post, the entire marketing department was "let go"...frankly, they were doing a pretty crappy job. While their "marketing" may have appealed to the 'MI' crowd, their direction and presentation was at best offensive to the professional user.

 

While the 'MI' market in many ways is perceived to drive that strata of the industry, closer examination reveals that it is indeed the professional users that are your target demographic. Alienating that strata of the market isn't [obviously from Lin 6's action] a career move.

 

 

And today, I heard a rumor that Sonic Foundry had laid off 40% of its people. Riffage.com is gone, and I've heard from people in other MI companies, such as software, who are on shaky ground.

 

 

From what I've seen/heard, Sonic Foundry in many ways has an inferior product on the market. This would put it in a position to follow companies like 'Linn' and 'New England Digital'...those firms outlived their usefullness and died. Lead, follow, or get out of the way, it seemed that Sonic Foundry has/had vision to 'follow', but not lead...following is a direct method to being asked to get the hell out of the way [by the market place].

 

As for the ".com"s, they're dropping like flies. I never heard of that particular ".com", but lets face it...damn few of them have ever been profitable...and you have the wonderful new breed of 'cyber-mercenaries'..."when the money's gone, so are they". They don't "do", they don't "create"...they hope the company will live long enough so their 'stock options' can be registered with the SEC for trading, and that their 'options' are actually worth something upon "registration"...then they 'cash in for a few mil' and get the hell out.

 

One of the running jokes at our joint is: "mercenary.com--too stupid for an IPO, but smart enough to know where to put a microphone"

 

 

Is the boom that started with the ADAT and cheap computers over? Is the industry heading for a contraction?

 

Follow the bouncing NASDAQ. The majority of the fickle 'MI' market is driven by 'non-pro's...so if the NASDAQ takes a dip, many of them are going to have to 'tighten their belts'...which means that the 'hobbiest' will 'make do' with what they have.

 

The 'professional' market is growing, booming and thriving. There is a greater demand for product than at any time in history, and that demand is being filled by more and more owner/operators than at any other time in history.

 

Yes, the "tradional model" is altering, but all things are constantly in a state of flux. I first read an article with a 'Craig Anderton' "by-line" in like 1974 in 'Guitar Player Magazine'. Look at that book, it's changed quite a bit since '74. Look at the instruments we use, the product we output, the uses for that product.

 

Who in their right mind would have thought that 25+ years after the 'death of Quad' that it would be back as "5.1"...except this time with a wing and a prayer of survival [it's got the 'movie industry' behind it trying to move back catalog "DVD" titles...that's a damn powerful force!!]

 

 

How are the stores holding up in your area?

 

They're in a state of flux as they have been for the last 15+ years. The 'Guitar-Marts' are doing what Wall-Mart, K-Mart, Target, etc. do. They have tremendous buying power, the strong replace the weak. It's pretty simple. Darwin showed us the model long ago, it applies to 'music retailing'.

 

In yesterday's papers there was an article on how the retailer "Bradlees" is in financial trouble...but 'Target' will be moving into the majority of the 'Bradlee' locations...it's just evolution.

 

The thing that got me, the 'Home Depot' opened a store near where I live...it [of course] killed the local 'mom and pop' hardware store. Now, I can only get parts/pieces/hardware that 'Home Depot' thinks I should have. I had to go to literally 4 different stores to find 3/8" fine thread nuts last week...because someone at Home Depot decided that the world only need 'coarse thread nuts'. Same is happening with 'MI' retailing.

 

Will we be hearing about more layoffs at other companies?

 

Absolutely.

 

Is this going to be a gloomy NAMM or a happy one?

 

NAMM is always a gloomy place...hell it rains half the year. In case you weren't paying attention, a good portion of the American public was against our involvement in NAMM...the chant 'hell no, we won't go' echoed through the canyons of the American consiousness as children were beate, shot and killed protesting our involvement in NAMM.

 

Why do you think this asinine trade show is called NAMM? I went to one once...started slow, it was a 'Summer NAMM'...felt like going to Nashville for a couple days, especially when I could 'write it off'...I got passes, and went.

 

What a load of shit!! Meaningless companies with meaningless products fronting for the remaining few thousand 'mom and pop' retailers while keeping an eye out for the buyers from 'Ash/GC/Mars/etc'. It was wall to wall hype and horseshit, with absolutely nothing of substance viewable from the floor.

 

The demonstrations that were available were cursory at best, the general vibe of the show was "move steel", not "educate the retailers". One of the largest problems facing our industry is the lack of education of the retailers. These people are supposed to be the frontline of education, yet are the major outlets for the spreading of major/corporate 'manufacturer driven hype and bullshit'.

 

The reason a bulliten board such as this can thrive and survive is from that thirst and quest for knowledge. It is often available here, though in an oft illiterately presented form, it is still available.

 

The health of the industry will rely upon the strength of the individual to see past the horseshit. Fortunately, the great majority of the main practioners of our craft have that ability. They will determine what's cool and what's stool, they will decide which firms stay and which ones go.

 

Look at Mackie...I've got $100 that says Mackie will be gone by 2005. Gone. Anyone wanna take that bet? We'll have Craig hold the bets, there is no need for 'honesty' here...my little 'Nostradomous' [sp] like prediction here is that Mackie will be barely a memory by 2005...how about that.

 

The d8b is just starting to work [there are some bugs in the V 3.0 software still], the hardisk recorder still isn't stable...so Tascam beat the snot out of them getting to market with that too...which puts them kinda between a rock and a hardplace. Where's the stock these days? [oh, right that would be on the NASDAQ exchange...] Last I saw...it was hovering at about $4-...

 

Maybe the EAW thing pulls them out, or makes them stable...maybe they have a couple other irons in the fire...but I doubt it. Hey, that's the way it happens...I've been hearing about massive layoffs and fiscal lack of health over at alesis for a year and a half now...

 

I guess their hope for a great white saviour is their new 'hardisk' thingy [i can't remember what it's called...not a great marketing campaign]. Gee, what a pity...but ya know what, if/when they die...something else will come along and take it's place. Nothing lasts forever...the only thing constant is change.

 

There was once a time when Harley Davidson made motorcycles, and Gibson made guitars. Now they're both T-Shirts and theme bars where 'wannabe cowboys' can spend too much money on an overpriced, correctly "branded" showpiece. As 'midlife crisis's go...both are still cheaper than a new 'Corvette', and definitely cheaper than a 19 yr. old 'Red Haired Girl on the side'...but neither firm is making quality hardware for professional use.

 

They built a brand, they're capitalizing on a logo and an image. If any of the smaller firms can build and sustain a "logo and image" they too can survive spewing crap...much like today's "Neve". I can't think of another example, with the possible exception of todays "SSL"...but certainly nothing approaching 'street level hardware'.

 

Just some thoughts...your mileage may vary...

 

-----

 

Fletcher

Mercenary Audio http://www.mercenary.com

[trick fall]

The governments economic statistics have been nothing but fantasy since the fist Bush administration, but no one seems to notice. The real scary thing is that it's not just the dotcoms that were/are overvalued, but also companies like GE.

 

I only point out the larger economy because I believe that the MI business will take a proportionately larger hit. If the economy does tank it'll be a long time before I purchase another mic, compressor etc. and I've spend about three grand a year on this kinda stuff for at least the last four years.

[alphajerk]

well the second bush admin doesnt look any better than the first. and as soon as people start sitting on their money [kinda like they are now] the economy is going back into recession.

 

there was no doubt that some of these dot.coms were going to tank, now we know when it happened. restructure and rebuild. TV i dont think made a profit for 11 years after its conception, the web better get moving quick in the next couple but i really doubt its going to all out fail and eventually, money WILL be made on it.

 

i also think that for the average joe, computers have hit the top in terms of speed. for people like myself, they are just getting started. maybe as higher bandwidth hits in a couple years, a new need for faster machines will present itself but they wont resemble the machine of today nor will they be in our offices.

 

as for the MI, i have no idea. they really need to quit releasing NEW product and make what they have BETTER. i agree with fletcher about mackie, buh bye. worthless crap.

[Dave Bryce]

Yeah, but...

 

While it is nice to be able to spend thousands of dollars on compressors, mic pres, etc., the fact of the matter is that there are a whole lot of people who want to make music who just can't spend that kind of coin.

 

Also, there are a few professionals that I know that can't spend that kind of coin on gear.

 

What are they supposed to do? Not make music because they can't afford the Top Quality tools? Or only record when they have enough money to hire a facility that does?

 

The affordable gear made by companies like Mackie, Alesis and many many others are not only just fine for many of these applications, they have been used by a bunch of industry professionals to make both live music and recordings. There are plenty of studios still today with ADATs and Mackie consoles pumping out tunes, both on an amateur and a professional level. There are some who might say that all that music made by all those folks is crap because of the gear that they're using, but I'm willing to wager that many of them don't really care what others may think, and are probably (hopefully) having a great time with whatever gear that they happen to own - which is why most of us got into it in the first place. For fun.

 

Additionally, I have a big problem with the concept that it takes unbelievably expensive and/or vintage analog gear to make good music. It doesn't. It takes a desire to make good music, whatever that means to the person making it. Whether they're strumming their inexpensive acoustic guitar all by themselves, or doing loops on the computer synced to a groove box, or playing live in clubs five nights a week, or working in their little four track cassette based demo studio, or playing with outboard gear that costs as much as a downpayment on a small house - whatever it means to each of us. You don't like drum machines? Don't use them. You don't like inexpensive outboard gear? Don't buy it. But it doesn't seem right or fair to me to openly bust on that gear, or to try and make the people who may be perfectly happy with it feel stupid or wrong for doing so. I have heard perfectly wonderful, soulful recordings done on cassette four-track., and I have heard crap come out of the best studios in the world. Gear doesn't make the music - musicians make the music.

 

Sorry for the diatribe. Flame away.

 

dB

[Marvster]

No flames here -- I'm completely with you on this one, Dave. Time and time again I've seen guys with inexpensive gear wipe the floor with gadget gurus. Garbage in, garbage out....

 

I think it's a disservice to those trying to break in to say that what toys you're using absolutely don't matter in a professional context -- they often do -- but there's certainly no correlation between the cost/brand of gear and underlying quality of the music.

 

We're also in an age of "good enough technology." Time was there was a *big* difference between, say, a 12-bit and a 16-bit sampler. Nowadays, a lot of gear is downright amazing (if suffering from a bit too much "sameness"). It's especially ridiculous to slam mid-level products like ADATs or Mackie mixers; there's too much wonderful music being made on that stuff to bear out the opinion.

 

Merry Christmas!

 

Marv

[Steven Denike]

I think there have been two things at work on the 'market' side of the business (suppliers).

 

One is that the Baby Boom (any of you boomers out there? Probably a majority of posters on these threads). The same market force that has demanded reissues of LA-2As and 24 track 'almost analogue' hard disk coffins (boxes) is its (its' for you Americans) own worst enemy. As Baby Boomers prepare for retirement, they stop buying those NASDAQ stocks and mutual funds - why risk the nest egg at this point in the game? I've noticed that our electricity prices have skyrocketed just when the majority of B C Hydro (our electric company) employees and executives near retirement (don't call it 'profiteering'; it's just 'flexible retirement benefit recoupment')... And those stocks and mutual funds are what support the (re-)production of lots of our treasured gear.

 

The second point, already mentioned, is the 'stock option' craze. Every company that has an upsurge in stock value is walking a thin line -- part of their value is that many of the company stock options are tied up in employee benefit plans, so those stocks are inacessible (for a while) to the market. Unfortunately, as time passes, those employees can cash in their options in a hurry and 'sack' (or at least devalue) the company. Some companies in Silicon Valley don't pay rent; instead they hand over stock options to the landlord. All this leads to inflated values on the stock market, because some of those stocks are thought to be a 'legal fiction' - until they're cashed out.

 

Look at us, Craig - nearly Christmas and we're talking about things like branding, placement, and NASDAQ. I saw South Park last night, where the town lost 'the spirit of Christmas'; they were only remembering to love one another and have peace on earth, and had to be reminded that Christmas is based on commercialism and consumerism. THat's 'Real Life'.

 

By the way, (BTW), what distinction would you make between the MI industry and the Pros like yourselves(?).

[Fletcher]

Originally posted by Dave Bryce:

The affordable gear made by companies like Mackie, Alesis and many many others are not only just fine for many of these applications, they have been used by a bunch of industry professionals to make both live music and recordings.

 

But if they don't remain inovative, and competative, they will go away. Alesis in a big way missed the boat on 'H-D' multi-track recording and is playing "catch up"...Mackie released their product too early, and are now facing both stability and credibility problems.

 

That was my point...not that you couldn't make music without expensive toys, but the company's on the cutting edge of affordable technology can less afford to take their eye off the ball, not even for a second, than ever before.

 

-----

 

Fletcher

Mercenary Audio http://www.mercenary.com

[alphajerk]

i think you miss the point here. good music and good gear are TWO DIFFERENT THINGS! i've made great music on crappy gear and continue to make great music on great gear, which one sounds better? the great gear of course, but music is music. it doesnt change depending on the gear. but i will say that the great music ive made on Mackie sounds like shit [flabby lows, crappy highs, honky mids] and the same song tracked on some good gear sounds gorgeous.

 

hey, im all about getting it done regardless of the gear but once you smoke a montecristo, all else tastes like poop.

[Dave Bryce]

Originally posted by alphajerk:

i think you miss the point here. good music and good gear are TWO DIFFERENT THINGS!

 

I'm quite sure that I don't miss the point, because that is my point. Great music is great music no matter what medium is used to capture it. The vast majority of people listening to it will still manage to be able to pick out the fact that it's great music if it was tracked on a Mackie console or a higher end one. Isn't that the purpose of recording it in the first place?

 

i've made great music on crappy gear and continue to make great music on great gear, which one sounds better? the great gear of course,

 

You mean it sounds better to you. This is my other point - you're don't seem to be allowing for objectivity at all. As Marvin said above, there's some pretty decent gear available at pretty reasonable prices these days, and I believe that a truly great engineer can make a great recording on just about anything that you give him (or her). For you, part of the thrill is to use the killer tools...me, too. Hey, I love my vintage synths; but, I still use my NanoBass occasionally. But it doesn't stand to reason that because your ear prefers the pricier gear that everything that Mackie makes is crap, Alpha...also, it doesn't mean that there aren't plenty of people out there enjoying Mackie products, and they shouldn't be made to feel wrong for doing so. That's what I'm saying.

 

i will say that the great music ive made on Mackie sounds like shit [flabby lows, crappy highs, honky mids] and the same song tracked on some good gear sounds gorgeous.

 

Are you saying that you've taken the time to track the same piece of music in the same space with the same musicians using identical methods on different consoles?

 

hey, im all about getting it done regardless of the gear but once you smoke a montecristo, all else tastes like poop.

 

Perhaps, if your taste is inclined towards Montecristos and you have the budget for them. But supose you've never had a Montecristo - does that mean that you've never enjoyed a smoke?

 

dB

 

 

 

This message has been edited by Dave Bryce on 12-23-2000 at 09:22 PM

[alphajerk]

yes, it means you really havent smoked anything unless you have smoked the best. like catching a buzz of schwag compared to kind, it aint even close.

 

and yes, i took the time to setup the cheap way and the expensive way, obviously not the same space in time but the same song, the same space the same musicians the same setup.

 

and yes, the vast majority CAN tell the difference. and yes it does SOUND better. ive played my little experiment for many non-musical [fans] people and they can pick it out 100% of the time, the difference is that much [and im still not using all the best stuff yet although its close enough].

 

the people who are enjoying mackie equipment simply havent used better equipment or dont have the ears to recognize the difference [if thats the case, then why are they doing it at all because they really arent listening then]. if its simply affordability, ive already stated that getting the job done at all wins out regardless.

 

the fact is that great music sounds even better when captured with great equipment. just like listening on a great high end system kills the walmart minisystem.

 

its the difference between driving a ford and a hummer, a honda and a mercedes [both are gonna get you there but ones gonna drive better and feel better]. the MI is in trouble if the nut behind the wheel doesnt know the difference.

[Marvster]

<>

 

This is undeniably true. But....

 

<>

 

You know, I've dealt with idiots like you for 15 years and every time I see something stupid like this I tell myself, "Let it go. It's not worth your time." And yet I keep getting pulled back in ... which, I suppose, makes *me* the idiot.

 

I enjoy Mackie equipment, I've used it extensively, I see its output as perfectly acceptable for pro work, and yet I've used much better both in project and commercial studios. (I'm not a shill for Mackie, by the way. I use an 01V at home.)

 

I don't write commercial music any more, but when I did my clients included NBC, ABC, FOX, Miller Beer, Boeing, Intel, Acura, Warner Bros, and the list goes on. And I composed much of that music on mid-level gear that you would probably turn up your nose at. Funny, my clients never complained, nor did fellow musicians who heard my work.

 

And now I remember why I let myself get pulled into these flames: It's important for any newbie or aspiring musicians to understand that you *don't* have to break the bank to be a pro. You *can* make GREAT music on mainstream gear that other people will buy and appreciate. And you shouldn't *ever* be intimidated by people like alphajerk who, in my experience, are delusional posers.

 

Marv

 

 

 

This message has been edited by Marvster on 12-23-2000 at 11:03 PM

[Dave Bryce]

Alpha, you're still not hearing me.

 

You seem to be saying that what is right and valuable to you should apply to everyone else, and that any other perspective is just uneducated. I must respectfully disagree, and request that you allow for the possibility that just because you don't care for something doesn't mean that it's crap. It just means that you don't care for it.

 

Let's stick with your stereo analogy. Of course I agree with you that a big, nasty state of the art system is going to sound a great deal better than a boom box - I don't think that anyone would disagree with that. My point is that the vast majority of people who listen to music do so on gear that is more on a par with the boom boxes, and most of them enjoy the music just fine. They don't have the money, time or desire to get into the audiophile thing - they just want to hear some music. They oooh and aaah appropriately when they hear the Real Thing, but then they go happily back to listening to their boom boxes, walkmans and car stereos. I, on the other hand, have a system that is within 2 dB of DTS spec - to me, it's a VERY big deal. But not to them.

 

Same thing with the gear. I, too, have done tests using expensive and inexpensive gear for comparative purposes. There are some people who can pick it out, and some who can't. More of them can't - I'm lucky enough to be able to work with some great engineers who can make an SM58 recorded on a portastudio sound great.

 

Which goes back to what I said earlier - as a rule, I believe that talented musicians and engineers will tend to do great work on whatever they have to work with.

 

Since a lot of the people who read this board may be looking up to the more experienced posters for advice and counsel, I just wonder what you can possibly hope to achieve by saying things like "Mackie gear is crap", that's all.

 

...and, BTW, I actually know more than one person who prefer ragweed to the ultra-kind...go figure...

 

dB

[alphajerk]

im merely pointing out the benefits of the higher end gear [and i dont like mackie stuff regardless, if you want inexpensive stuff that will do the same job, get behringer (mackie knockoff at half the price), or presonus, or art]

 

we are arguing from the same side of the fence it seems. i have said now several times that getting the job done regardless of the equipment rules over anything and i hardly turn my nose up at anything, ive tracked on mackie many times although i PREFER to use nicer gear as im sure you do. if you had to choose between say an API console sitting there and a mackie board, which one are you going to use?

 

i can make anything WORK, its just with cheaper gear you have to work harder at getting the sound than with better gear [this has been my experience and i share it with everyone, im sure most will agree]

 

like i said, both cars will get you there, its just a matter of which one you would enjoy driving more.

 

yea, i know some people who prefer to have the headaches and sloppyness of the schwag too, they cant even tell their high on the kind although they gotta keep wiping the drool from their chins. i even know some who smoke the seeds and stems.... i'll pass thank you.

 

and marvster, why are you calling me an idiot? do i attack you as a person? this is something i wish somebody had told me 15 years ago and saved me a lot of $$$ in the long run. its important people know this and understand the differences. i hardly see myself as delusional because i enjoy perfecting the sounds at all points of the chain and prefer to work with better equipment. why do you think professional photographers use hassleblads rather than disposable cameras? give me a break!

 

This message has been edited by alphajerk on 12-23-2000 at 11:20 PM

[John Worthington]

Alpha,

 

It ain't the tool it's what you do with it. You could sit with the best gear in the world and someone like Roger, George, or Ed would would smoke you recording on a Mackie with a couple of SM-57. Same for me.

 

Be happy that your gear lets you make music you're proud of. Don't pee on other people for making gear choices.

 

Besides, a 2408 ain't a Montechristo.

 

jw

[Marvster]

<

 

No, but please reread your statement:

 

<>

 

This kind of unapologetic dogma drives me crazy. You are, in fact, implying that a whole *group* of people is clueless ("or don't have ears to recognize the difference"), and then presume to question their talent and motives ("then why are they doing it at all") based on nothing but a gross assumption about why they may or may not be using certain gear.

 

In my book, these sweeping generalizations make you an idiot. Sorry.

 

Marv

 

This message has been edited by Marvster on 12-23-2000 at 11:50 PM

[alphajerk]

well then your a moron for not reading my next line: "if its simply affordability, ive already stated that getting the job done at all wins out regardless."

[alphajerk]

john: yes, you are right and its my next upgrade to either the RME convertors either next week or wait until i get my sony board. im waiting to compare the on board convertors to the apogees [of which the RME gives a run for the money (see im not all about the most expensive)]. im not a fan of the 2408 convertors at all. in fact i like the ADAT XT's convertors better than the 2408's. all in due time. regardless i am still making due with what i have [again, reinforcing the point i have been making]

 

"You could sit with the best gear in the world and someone like Roger, George, or Ed would would smoke you recording on a Mackie with a couple of SM-57."

 

i'd take that challenge anyday and i bet i would win. frankly i would have nothing to lose by doing so whereas they would. besides, i bet george would never agree to it and i doubt roger would either.

 

This message has been edited by alphajerk on 12-24-2000 at 12:47 AM

[Anderton]

>>From what I've seen/heard, Sonic Foundry in many ways has an inferior product on the market. <<

 

I don't agree. Acid is a brilliant piece of software, Vegas Video is a kickass video editor. Vegas would be killer if you could just manipulate the controls via MIDI...Sound Forge is behind the 24-bit times, but the next update will supposedly fix that. Overall, SF puts out some great tools, and I would have a hard time coping without them.

[Anderton]

>>We're also in an age of "good enough technology."<<

 

I like to remind people that even the budget gear we have these days is often superior to really costly, pro-level gear of just a few years ago. "Pro" is a moving target, and what's semi-pro today was pro yesterday.

[Anderton]

I think we can agree on a few things...

 

Higher-quality gear often, but not always, gives higher sound quality.

 

Sound quality has far less influence on creating a positive listener experience than the emotional impact of the music.

 

For those who can't afford the best gear, it's great there's affordable stuff that comes as close as it does.

 

And finally, a line I always try to use at seminars:

 

"No radio station ever called me up and said, 'You know, we were going to play your CD...but that's a 12-bit snare drum on it, isn't it?'"

 

Happy holidays, y'all.

[Philip OKeefe]

Dave Bryce said:

 

>>Let's stick with your stereo analogy. Of course I agree with you that a big, nasty state of the art system is going to sound a great deal better than a boom box - I don't think that anyone would disagree with that. My point is that the vast majority of people who listen to music do so on gear that is more on a par with the boom boxes, and most of them enjoy the music just fine. <<

 

Even cheesy stereo boom boxes have their professional uses. I use them all the time to do "translation" checks. If a large portion of the audience is using them, then it just seems silly NOT to check your mixes on systems similar to those that they're using. If you don't check your excersize audio tape on boom boxes and walkmans, you're asking for trouble IMHO, since that's what the overwhelming majority of the "end users" are going to be listening on.

 

I can see valid points on both side of this discussion though...

 

Alphajerk said:

 

>> i can make anything WORK, its just with cheaper gear you have to work harder at getting the sound than with better gear [this has been my experience and i share it with everyone, im sure most will agree]<<

 

I tell clients all the time that if they bring in a $250.00 Jasmine acoustic, I'll make it sound better than they've probably ever heard it before, but there's no WAY that I'm ever gonna make it sound as nice on tape as my Taylor 510 or a Martin HD28. So I agree AJ, things are going to take longer and require more effort on the cheaper gear.

 

Then again, "nice" is SUCH a subjective term, isn't it?

 

Look at what David Lindley has done over the years with some god-awful pieces of crap guitars. Would he sound "better" if he used more high end instruments instead? I'd say no. "Different", but not necessarily "better". It's ALL subjective.

 

I just came off a five year period using a Mackie 32*8 as my primary board. Did it have limitations? You bet! Would I have preferred a Neve VR? What, do you think I'm NUTS? Of course I would have preferred the Neve, but buying a house was also important to my wife and me, and I couldn't afford both.

 

I'm glad that the MI has provided tools that allowed me to keep working and do viable recordings at a price point that I could afford. A good engineer (which I'd like to think that I might be considered) will be able to coax more from a Mackie than a novice on a SSL. "Know thy Gear" is one of my personal "Ten Commandments" of the studio.

 

Just because I hand a '59 Les Paul or '62 Strat to a 6 year old doesn't make them play like Eric Clapton. Tools ARE important, and I agree with AJ on that, but what you DO with the tools is probably more important, and here I have to side with Dave, although I do note that AJ seems to be trying to say the same thing.

 

>> Can't we all just get along?<<

 

Rodney King

 

Hey guys, it's Christmas for crying out loud. Speaking of which, happy holidays to all of you, and best wishes to you in whereever your muse takes you in the coming millenium.

 

Phil O'Keefe

Sound Sanctuary Recording

Riverside CA http://members.aol.com/ssanctuary/index.html

email: pokeefe777@msn.com

[Chip McDonald]

Originally posted by trickfall@yahoo.com:

The governments economic statistics have been nothing but fantasy since the fist Bush administration,

 

They've been wacked since Reagan. Specifically, since Stockman turned the GAO upside down and made the whole works more "user friendly" for the machine to manipulate in the public.

 

Personally, I'm tired of hearing CNN (which is either spending most of it's time these days on "Entertainment" "News", or the stock market) report about how everyone is happy because the NASDAQ went up, or that it was "a down day" because it went down... and then we hear everything related to that concept....

 

*I* can't afford to own stock in anything unfortunately. I would think *most* of the people in this country don't, either. Trickle down economics is the biggest sustaining myth left over from the Reagan era we have today, and it's pretty annoying to hear this or that governmental report giving the financial state of the nation: people in general know how things are going. *I* know when there's inflation: when the cost of food and shelter continues to go up, THAT'S practical, real world living-in-reality INFLATION. As far as I've seen in 33 (ack) years on the planet, that's never changed.

 

.. and everything else is just smoke and mirrors.

 

Frick - magazines cost over $6.00 these days! I remember freaking out when paperback books started going up in price, back in the mid 80's: I remember thinking "$6.00 for a PAPERback book???" - and now they're over $10.

 

But thankfully, the United States of America has seen fit to subsidize the IMPORTANT things, like the tobacco industry. At least a kid these days, if he can't afford to buy that new inspiring and life changing book, he can at least start a life changing bad habit.

 

Hmm.. This was supposed to be about economic statistics, wasn't it?

http://www.mp3.com/chipmcdonald

[Thomas K]

I think that to listen to modern radio today clearly demonstrates that the expensive "tools" do not guarantee great sound because of their price tags. And I would plea to anyone contributing to that nonsense (of actually making that music) to please stop. It's lifeless. The tip is that if your client looks like he/she could cast for a GAP commercial, just say no to the session. If you have aided in any of those sessions, only your bank account is justified, not your musical spirit - or duty, for that matter.

 

As for MI, as long as the Joe Meeks are still around to be had, I'll walk that value for price and not think twice about an API rack. After I'm done, no one will know the difference. For those of you with really special ears, you're too much in the minority to matter. The listener just wants to be moved.