Philip OKeefe Posted December 20, 2000 Share Posted December 20, 2000 Here's another question for you all: Can a engineer without any musical background (self taught or classically trained) potentially perform their duties as well as one with similar technical chops but who also has the ability to play? My personal thoughts are that it's a big advantage to "speak both languages". you need to know the technical and be able to describe what you're doing in technical terms, but for the most part musicians are not engineers - they're musicians, and as such they speak their own language. An engineer is able to communicate with them much easier if they know the language. "Let's take it from the coda..." works a lot better than saying "uh, can we take it from near the end? You know, where you play that da da dah dum dee part?" I'd be interested in hearing about your recording experiences with engineers who had no musical training or playing skills. How did the session go? Thanks everyone. Phil O'Keefe Sound Sanctuary Recording Riverside CA http://members.aol.com/ssanctuary/index.html email: pokeefe777@msn.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alphajerk Posted December 20, 2000 Share Posted December 20, 2000 well i assume you are taking the producer out of the scenario here and the engineer isnt doing double duty. an engineer really only needs the love of music and appreciation for sound and the ability to work the tools of his trade [and preferably how to build them orat least work on them] to do his job properly. everything else is just icing on the cake. besides, being on the job long enough will let any fool learn what minimal musispeak means and where to go in the song. in reality though there are all kinds of jobs for all kinds of people and most usually know their limits. in the studio, you are a team and the bands should be on the same page as the guy capturing their music just as they should be on the same page as the guy sculpting the music. alphajerk FATcompilation "if god is truly just, i tremble for the fate of my country" -thomas jefferson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alphajerk Posted December 20, 2000 Share Posted December 20, 2000 p.s. i have also seen musically literate engineers impede on session opening their mouth when they shouldnt have. alphajerk FATcompilation "if god is truly just, i tremble for the fate of my country" -thomas jefferson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anderton Posted December 20, 2000 Share Posted December 20, 2000 I've worked with both types. It's not necessary for an engineer to know music, but one who does finds it a lot easier to communicate when a musician says something like "punch me in two bars into the chorus." You could just as easily turn the question around and ask whether it helps if a musician knows engineering when working in the studio. Again, it's not necessary, but the musician might be more sensitive to such things as maintaining consistent levels. And AJ's comment can also apply: a musician can add inappropriate comments about engineering if they know just enough to be dangerous. Craig Anderton Educational site: http://www.craiganderton.org Music: http://www.youtube.com/thecraiganderton Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/craig_anderton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 21, 2000 Share Posted December 21, 2000 Seems to me like it depends on the context of the engineering situation, but I would say it is a definite advantage to be from a music background -- even if you're not a great player. Understanding and knowing what a performance is,from a player stand point, can make a big differnece in how a session runs. Especially if you're the person determining the pace of the session by operating the tape machine or whatever you're recording to. people that are under time constraints (commercial sessions, jingles, string dates) and seasoned studio musicians always seem to appreciate the fact that I have a 'feel' for punches, and that i'm always within a few bars of where we need to be. My goal has always been to never be the slowest person in the room. The most important part, music background or not, is to always pay attention to what's going on... -John Paterno Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David R. Posted December 21, 2000 Share Posted December 21, 2000 Knowing music really helps me in the studio when recording others. Knowing what they want when the client says punch in on the IV chord saves alot of time. When the client knows about recording, it can slow things down because they are aware of the many options available and want to try them. We know about moving the elbow instead of the fader, but this kind of trick only works on those who don't know. It all depends on the individual. A great communicator with no knowledge can have better success than a brilliant asshole. I think the more tools one has, and the less of a jerk one is, the better. -David R. -David R. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip OKeefe Posted December 21, 2000 Author Share Posted December 21, 2000 Craig: Here's a quote from a comment I made on the "Are home studios bad for music?" thread: >>An advantage that I think the home studio offers is the ability for young and / or inexperienced musicians to educate themselves as to the process of recording. Just as playing countless lounge gigs or bar band gigs can help you later in your career if you ever reach the stage where you're playing to thousands of people, learning to record yourself on even a small home setup will help you later if you're fortunate enough to record at Right Track, NRG or Abbey Road. I almost always find it easier to work with clients who have some personal studio recording experience compared to those who lack it.<< Craig said: >>And AJ's comment can also apply: a musician can add inappropriate comments about engineering if they know just enough to be dangerous.<< That's also quite true, but someone who has had the experience of "doing all the parts" alone in a home studio production will probably at least know enough about being objective regarding what to put "up front" at any given moment to avoid contributing to "fader wars" that often break out among band members. I use the analogy of photography to explain to artists that are new to recording that you can't have everything as the "center focus" at once. We can only really listen to one or two things at a time in great detail (try talking on the phone and listening to a TV announcer at the same time for a classic example) and the other items are going to have to be "supportive" in nature while you're highlighting the key element. Not that you shouldn't be able to hear each individual element clearly... And that "main focus" element can and oftentimes DOES change form moment to moment. Alphajerk said: >>p.s. i have also seen musically literate engineers impede on session opening their mouth when they shouldnt have.<< Very good point AJ. I do a lot of production as well as engineering. Sometimes both at once, sometimes only doing one or the other. It depends on the relationship between the producer and engineer. Some communicate without a lot of words (Martin / Emerick). Sometimes a producer wants the engineer to just "shut up and run the equipment". Many producers like to bounce things off the engineer for yet another experienced and trained opinion. And still others EXPECT the engineer to bring it to their attention if they hear something that should be pointed out. When working with bands that come into the studio sans producer, I always make it a point to tell them that I'm there to make their recording experience the best and most enjoyable that I possibly can and that means in part "conforming" to their preferred working style. If they want to "direct", I'll happily just shut up and run the gear like a good little engineer. However, in the excitement of the moment (being in the studio IS exciting for a lot of people) they might overlook something that they might regret when listening back months later. An objective set of "ears" and lots of experience are a couple of things that makes a good producer so valuable IMHO. I therefore offer to point out what I hear, and then allow them to make the aesthetical judgements regarding whether or not they want to live with it forever. In 22 years, I've NEVER had a band fail to take me up on that offer, although I have worked with producers who prefer me to just "push the buttons", and I've been fine with that. I think all of the above are perfectly valid approaches, depending on the people and circumstances involved. Thanks for your comments everyone! Phil O'Keefe Sound Sanctuary Recording Riverside CA http://members.aol.com/ssanctuary/index.html email: pokeefe777@msn.com This message has been edited by pokeefe777@msn.com on 12-20-2000 at 06:11 PM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pro Jules Posted December 21, 2000 Share Posted December 21, 2000 My korean Ex would tell me that her Korean music chums belived that you had to know the theory inside out before taking one step, be it music, or engineering.. This attitude is of course, a pedantic crock. The musicaly trained here can brag, untrained will tell you they function.... whatever... Me, i've gotten by for 20 years with no musical training. I just hired an assistant who has a good grounding in music theory, that, in my book, makes me a genius! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif The last time this was brought up here it bacame a dull, black or white pedantic thread, with no acceptance of grey areas...Good luck the second time round.... The one loophole, if you record classical music, you ARE expected to be able to follow a score.. Jules Jules Producer Julian Standen London, UK, Come hang here! http://www.gearslutz.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anderton Posted December 21, 2000 Share Posted December 21, 2000 One thing I do believe is that although it may not be NECESSARY for engineers to learn music and musicians to learn engineering, it certainly is desirable. It's all a part of growing our skills. Learning about mastering has been an incredibly positive experience for me, because it has greatly improved my mixing. When you have to master a mix, you instantly understand what should have been done differently!! Craig Anderton Educational site: http://www.craiganderton.org Music: http://www.youtube.com/thecraiganderton Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/craig_anderton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alphajerk Posted December 21, 2000 Share Posted December 21, 2000 it all comes down to the more you know, the better off you are, and knowing when to open your mouth and when to keep it shut fall into that as well. it includes both sides as well, musicians knowing engineering and engineers knowing music. and my earlier point really has to do more with the people you are working with opposed to what they all know. a good team is best because the musician CANT punch himself in. side note: how i punch them in i dont have to know shit of a IV chord where ever and nobody has ever heard a punch on mine. it ALWAYS sounds like a continuous single take. alphajerk FATcompilation "if god is truly just, i tremble for the fate of my country" -thomas jefferson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 21, 2000 Share Posted December 21, 2000 Whilst I agree it helps to know music, knowing too much and spouting forth musical opinions can be intimidating to musicians especially if they are new to recording and are nervous as shit already. I recorded two albums with a band and one day the keyboard player discovered that I could play keys - shit you mean all that time we recorded you were a keyboard player?? I think it helps to keep your musical profile low if you are an engineer. cheers john Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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