So You Made a CD...Then What?

[Anderton]

I know a lot of you are going to people like Discmakers to get CDs pressed. THEN what happened? Are they sitting in your garage? Did you sell a bunch at gigs? Did David Geffen offer you a lucractive contract? Did only close members of your family buy it? Anything you'd do differently?

 

I'm curious in a reality check here...

[Curve Dominant]

BIG OL' PROPS TO MARTY BALLIN & HIS WHOLE CREW AT DISCMAKERS!!

 

Those folks are fa real. They pressed & packaged my first homemade release back in '95, and I luv them. Not the lowest price, but great service and impeccable product - the best "bang 4 the buck." Not to mention close to home for me. They were originally at 5th & Girard (one hood north from where I currently live) and relocated just across the Ben Franklin Bridge in Jersey. I like to do bidness wit local bidnesses, but I would encourage anyone across the globe to check these folks out - they are cool.

 

I sold a bunch at gigs, gave a bunch away, got laid, got a ton of great press to the point of developing an intimidating presskit (worth the whole expense as far as I'm concerned); Dave Geffen didn't call back (even tho his niece is my neighbor), but Bob Karcey & Pete Robinson got really hip (Strausse Zelnick turned Pete on to us, incedentally, although Strausse recently bailed on BMG); no contracts were signed as a result but it was an ego/confidence/motivational boost nonetheless. Eventually that project went nowhere, but, yo bruthas & sistas, that was a once-in-a-lifetime learning experience, and well worth the 15K or so spent.

 

The most important thing I learned from that experience was to take total artistic control, to the point of trusting my instincts totally and not letting any outside influences sidetrack me, because my whole mission with music is to stay ahead of the curve. Most peeps who try to inject opinions are inundated with the out-dated; I've got to keep the future in my head & heart & soul.

 

The second most important thing that I am doing differently this time around is taking more control over the over-all production, and that's where you folks come in. I'm learning an intense amount of information on these forums, and much true love and respect to all of you for sharing so much.

[alphajerk]

well, we had to turn david geffen down http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

 

man you ask a complex question. SELL THEM of course. but its a hustle your ass off task. otherwise they DO sit in your basement.

 

generally, the first pressing [1k] almost half!?! get sent out as freebies to WHOEVER you think can get you something going. be it clubs for a tour, print reviews for publicity, all your friends, get those cd's out there! sell the rest going to record stores [they ARE willing to stock your stuff, especially when you give them a better price on them than the majors] some even offered us in store performances to help promote them. sell the other 500 and invest back in another stash, at least you dont have to give so many away this time and make a good bit more $$$...

 

odd story i just found out about. the singer of my last band recently went to work for the "industry" up in NYC and was backstage at this club wearing our t-shirt. the FOH guy was just staring at him. wait im not gonna rewrite this.

 

his email:

"HOLY SHIT IN A BOX!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I can't believe i haven't told already!!!!!!!! I was chillin backstage at the Bottom Line In Manhattan with my buddy I'm staying with now cause he used to work there doin lights. Well I was wearing my shirt when the FOH engineer starts starin at my shirt. He asked me if it was a band shirt and when I said yes he asked if I knew any of their albums. I said I was in the band and he asked if the album "Basement Days" rang a bell. Well needless to say I freaked the fuck out!!!! "

 

anyways, we sold a slew of cd's local [horrible recording simply dont live on a 4 track, no OD's but i digress, guess it just goes to show how little fans care about the sound quality] but have no idea how they made their way up to new york, not to mention somebody still having one. no one in the band does cause we couldnt keep up in stock, blew the $$$ on a nice PA and broke up. lovely story eh?

 

anyways, you gotta bust yo ass.

 

also, i notice more people buy records at shows than cd's. better to sell more of someting at a lower profit margin then not sell much of stuff with a high profit margin...

[Guest]

I love the MP3.COM concept of making them on demand but that making them from a 128kbs mp3 scares me silly. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif

 

------------------

William F. Turner

Guitarist, Composer, Songwriter

[MusicMan]

If i had any idea, (no offense), I probably wouldn't have the time to be posting here.

 

That is why I am.

[MusicMan]

...Anyway.

 

1)Since I am playing all the instruments I hope to use it to first and foremost, find some musicians who believe in the material.

 

2)Since I have produced some local acts that have received local radio air-play, the local DJ's are waiting for my release to play. (way cool for me)

 

3) I am starting with short-run pressings, I found a place that will do 100 CDs, full color, 4/1,2 page insert, full color tray card, thermal printing on CD, and shrink wrapped for $300 US, that for me is great on a budget. I have made some great friends at another BBS that I frequent that have helped me immensely with my recording, playing, life questions, so they are all getting one for free as not only a way to have my CD in cities all over the world, but to repay them for there invaluable help.

 

That is about as far into the future as I can see right now. The CD should be ready for release by the end of January.

 

I am making small goal and as I achieve them, making more.

 

Any and all suggestions are greatly appreciated.

[Guest]

Well, I sold a few, gave a few away, got some press, got some airplay, and still have a few hundred in my basement.

 

Probably the best thing that happened in my view was that I could use the 'commercially released' CD to join NARAS (National Academy of Recording Arts and Sciences - the Grammy people). I know that lot's of performing musicians like to dis the Academy, but it does offer people an opportunity to get to know other people in the business. Since I joined I have been able to attend the Grammy Awards twice (tickets are expensive, but it is a real trip!), I have spoken several times with Michael Green (the Academy president), and have become acquainted with several industry people. I have attended forums with top producers and been able to ask them questions on an individual basis, and I am one of the 10,000 or so people (in the world!) who get to vote on the Grammys (only full/voting members of the Academy can vote). So even though I have CD's in the basement I feel like it has really helped me make progress in my so called career.

 

Another good thing about the CD - I can listen to it 4 years later and it still sounds good to me. So I'm glad it's still holding up.

 

I'm working on my 2nd CD now, and a lot of the lessons I learned the 1st time through will be put to use.

 

- Calfee

[Guest]

Oh yea - MusicMan - Can you tell us who your short run manufacturer is? Have you had good results from using them?

 

Thanks - Calfee

[MusicMan]

calfee,

 

I haven't used them yet myself, but I refered a client to them and they were very happy with the results.

 

You have to provide them with the artwork for your project.

 

They are:New England Compact Disc http://www.browsehere.com/studio

 

The guy i talk to is named Gary.

 

Tell him that John Palumbo and Linc Schneider referred you.

[the stranger]

I'm also interested in who that short run manufacturer is.

I haven't had experience in this, yet.

 

I've got my stuff on cdr, but it just isn't the same.

I want some spares on real cd's, since they are a lot more durable.

 

And what exactly is a glass master?

[alphajerk]

"I've got my stuff on cdr, but it just isn't the same.

I want some spares on real cd's, since they are a lot more durable."

 

they both scratch just as easily and informationally, exactly the same.

 

"And what exactly is a glass master?"

 

a glass master is the pitted master used in teh cd manufacturering process to setup for the subsequent copies to be made from, i think there is one more set before the actual run of duplicates. its been a while since i learned all that stuff. its basically what facilitates a long run of CD at a pressing plant. they can make one from your CDR.

[ronpashop.com]

I just finished the CD a couple of months ago. Were older guys who have been there and back a few times. Used all the best players we could find......a young energetic producer with good ears. Everything went to press this week. How is it going to turn out...wow...who knows. The good thing about being Canadian is that the CRTC forces the radio stations to play 35% Canadian content. If its as good as everyone says it is we might stand a chance

[earfatigue]

BIG OL' PROPS TO MARTY BALLIN & HIS WHOLE CREW AT DISCMAKERS!!

 

Those folks are fa real.

 

i'm gonna have to disagree on this one. for real? well, yeah, send them a master and they'll get it back to you.

 

i, for one, would encourage artists to learn more about the actual process of making an independent record. in the long run, learing how to lay out your own covers and prepare the graphics for film seps, etc. is valuable in the long run. you know more about the process.

 

as for disc makers, i suppose they're okay for most people. i can relay one story though, before wmc1998 i had to get 300 records cut in a tight pinch. very tight. but disc makers promised me they'd get it done "better than any uk pressing plant". 10 days later i had 300 records that i basically buried in my backyard. and they had the gall to charge me for an overrun that was clearly specified not to be my liability.

 

imho, leave disc makers for the people who don't want to know anything about the process and don't mind paying twice as much.

 

judson

[Curve Dominant]

>>i had to get 300 records cut in a tight pinch. very tight.<<

 

Brutha, let me explain something to you. A small-time nickle-n-dime order like that is gonna get bottom priority at ANY house on the f*cking planet. I wouldn't have the lack of pride to even get on the phone and ASK a dupe house to give me an order like that, let alone a heavy hitter like Discmakers - I'd just dupe-em myself.

 

>>i had 300 records that i basically buried in my backyard.<<

 

If you felt inclined to bury your CDs in your backyard, I'm sure it had nothing to do with the mastering.

 

>>imho, leave disc makers for the people who don't want to know anything about the process and don't mind paying twice as much.<<

 

Your humble opinion has no basis in fact. Discmakers' niche market is producers who know precisely what they are paying for. And "twice as much" is an outright lie - either you don't have your facts straight, or you're slandering a good business staffed and run by good peeps. You better chill.

 

[This message has been edited by Curve Dominant (edited 12-15-2000).]

[Curve Dominant]

>>i, for one, would encourage artists to learn more about the actual process of making an independent record...learing how to lay out your own covers and prepare the graphics for film seps,<<

 

Alpha, skool this brutha, pleez.

[alphajerk]

i somewhat agree with judson about discmakers. i wouldnt call them evil at all but there are way better deals to be found. they do have some great programs though and seem like a professional operation which is why you do spend about twice as much [from what i can tell, just comparing rates, nothing more] but discmakers could certainly be your one stop shop. i like them as a company but they are a bit high $$$ to get my business.

 

i dont know how to cut my own records nor do i have the equipment [maybe one day, id love to own a lathe], if it were CD's i'd do it rather than send it off. im glad to know they hold you liable for overruns as i was planning on going with them on my next three releases for vinyl. anybody know of a good place [hopefully cheap but decent quality]?

 

as for getting involved with the entire process. its good to see whats going on and check proofs of the artwork and i have been known to work with the artist beside me on their artwork [sometimes enjoy it, collaboration is good, and i make the artist type the lyrics and information in so i dont have to http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif be careful what you ask to be a part of] but to know anything more than getting graphics together and how its gonna look isnt worth the time invested in it really. its best left to the people who know what they are doing, hell i avoid prepress myself and thats what i do. your not missing out on anything really. its kinda boring stuff like trapping, seps, color balance, etc. and dont plan on getting on the computer unless you are really good at it. working on graphics is an artform itself [im not refering to the actual work but the abuse of the computer] BUT FOR GODSAKES! pay somebody to do it. its worth it, its the first impression people get before even hearing you. and sometimes makes the difference between the person buying it or not. the last cd i did even got the group shows before the club guy heard the cd he was so impressed with the package.

[the stranger]

As I understand it, a cdr is much more fragile than a cd.

Also, hasn't the lifespan of a cd been better determined than a cdr?

[earfatigue]

<>

 

okay, "brutha". let me clarify that. the place i get all my 12"s mastered at is d+m in berlin. and i will stack up my record versus your record one by one and the levels will smack the taste out of your mouth. telling me my business in your egotistical "let me school you, "brutha" tone" makes you a god damn fool. you don't know me or my records or where they're charted, but i'm not in the mood to "school you", 'brutha'.

 

i needed 300 freebies to hand out at the conference in under 2 weeks. there's no way i could pull it off anywhere else. and for $1000 i should at least get a decent transfer and some halfway liveable vinyl. what i got was a master that barely licked 0db reference level (for vinyl it's +6 or die). if you can't make a record bang when you've got a whole side at 33 to put down 7 minutes of music then you're an idiot.

 

<< I

wouldn't have the lack of pride to even get on the phone and ASK a dupe house to give me an order like that, let alone a heavy hitter like Discmakers ->>

 

you have so much pride i can't believe you don't have a second bedroom for your testicles, and i'll leave it at that.

 

<< I'd just dupe-em myself.>>

 

got a lathe in your basement? you're going to run off 300 plates and give em out for free. okay, that's smart.

 

<>

 

yo, brains, i said RECORDS. the big 12" round black things (no, not your aforementioned testicles). i know EXACTLY how to master for vinyl. disc makers doesn't have the plot. period. they press country western and gospel in the same hour. they don't understand club level. i sent them a copy of a release i already had out and said "shoot for that". hardly.

 

what the hell is wrong with you? did you ever realize that there might, in fact, be other people at the same level or beyond what you do?

 

judson snell www.slangmusicgroup.com

[earfatigue]

speaking of, curvedominant.

 

that same record was eventually pressed in two runs of 5000 copies. with real mastering. and on decent vinyl.

 

put that in your mpc and smoke it.

 

my point was that i'll never use disc makers for vinyl again. their records are more like those evatone soundsheets that used to come free in magazines. i'm surprised the needles didn't just cut the record into one of those frilly dinner garnishes you make out of a carrot.

 

judson snell www.slangmusicgroup.com

[John Worthington]

Originally posted by earfatigue:

the place i get all my 12"s mastered at is d+m in berlin.

 

Any web address for these guys. I have a project coming up for which the client wants big round black pieces of vinyl.

 

jw

[Tim Walters]

My experience with Disc Makers was very bad, possibly because I didn't need graphics or mastering services. Instead, I sent them the finished graphic files and CD-R. They took it upon themselves to load the CD-R into Sonic and remaster it. As far as I could tell, they didn't change a byte, so no harm done; but it kind of made me wonder. Far worse, however, their graphics department decided I really needed a catalog number on my CD. Not only did I not want this, but when they added it it caused other text to overflow and make a mess. It took forever to straighten it out, because they flat-out refused to go back to the original file--instead, they kept trying to correct it and screwing something else up. They won't let you talk to the graphic artist--everything gets routed through the sales rep--so it's like playing telephone.

 

I don't know if my experience was typical--probably not--but I wouldn't use them again if you paid me.

[Curve Dominant]

Assfatigue says: >>i will stack up my record versus your record one by one and the levels will smack the taste out of your mouth.<<

 

Slang Music Group? You think you a playa? HAW HAW HAW HAW HAW HAW HAW HAW HAW HAW HAW HAW HAW HAW HAW HAW HAW HAW HAW HAW HAW HAW HAW HAW HAW HAW HAW HAW HAW HAW HAW HAW !!! I still got that taste, ya joke. Try again some day.

 

>>i needed 300 freebies to hand out at the conference in under 2 weeks. there's no way i could pull it off anywhere else.<<

 

You said it. You need freebies. So does everyone else on welfare.

 

>>what i got was a master that barely licked 0db reference level (for vinyl it's +6 or die)<<

 

No shit, Sherlock. Discmakers is a dupe house, not a mastering house. Do you know what mastering is?

 

>>i said RECORDS. the big 12" round black things (no, not your aforementioned testicles).<<

 

You little racist cocksucker. I should come to Chitown & ripp you a new one for that comment. I don't give a flying f*ck if they were CD's or vinyl, it was a rinky-dink small-time order from a rinkly-dink small-time nobody. You admitted yourself that "no way i could pull it off anywhere else."

 

>>that same record was eventually pressed in two runs of 5000 copies. with real mastering. and on decent vinyl.<<

 

Whoah - 5K. You big time (Heh heh heh!!). And "real mastering!" Now you really big time!! And on decent vinyl! Man, you really the shit, now!!

 

>>their graphics department decided I really needed a catalog number on my CD.<<

 

They DO insist on this, but you should put it in yourself - do not let their graphics guys TOUCH your files. One thing I will admit about discmakers is: do not let them do anything but dupe. DO NOT let them master your stuff OR touch the graphics files. ALSO, if you have a problem with them or any business for whom you are a client, communicate with them and 90% of the time they will work with you. Earfatigue was an idiot: he accepted & paid for product that was not to his specification. Tim, on the other hand, should have just spoken directly to the graphics guy (don't let sales reps pull that sh*t, just say "give me the f*ckin' guys tel #).

 

>>I don't know if my experience was typical<<

 

OF COURSE IT WAS F*CKING TYPICAL. There will always be screwups, every day, at every workplace in the world. This is because humans are not perfect (not even me, earfatigue, you punk-ass cabrone bitch). What seperates businesses is their willingness and ability to adress the issue and fix it. This is what I like about Discmakers - they work with me. They would have worked with assfatigue, too, but he waited till the last minute to get his order in. You can't blame Marty & his crew for that. You have only yourself to blame if you don't have the cajones to call someone at the top and say "I've got a problem with what you're selling me, and I need you to fix it." Discmakers does a ton of business, and has been growing steadily over the years. Ya'll think that would be the case if they were ripping everybody off?

[Tim Walters]

Well, there you have it. Curve admits that Discmakers is too cool to deal with small orders, incompetent to work with audio and graphics, and so caught up in bureaucracy they tell you what to put on your CD cover. Yet, he thinks we should pay more for their service, because... well, because they were nice to him in 1995. At least I think that's it.

 

Over the years, I've had CDs made by five different dupe houses. Of those five, Discmakers was by far the most expensive, and fourth in quality. (Fifth was Optimax, who put the test tone on the CD as track 1, and after redoing that, inserted spurious 2-second gaps into continuous material. I wasn't the one dealing with them, so I don't know how hellish that was...) My recommendation for first-timers is Oasis, who give the kind of thorough hands-on service that Curve rightly values, and who, unlike Discmakers, don't have their head up their ass. If you know the ropes, have your graphics and sound completely together, and are ready for a no-frills duplication house, consider CDMan, who are inexpensive, friendly, and extremely competent. Neither of these companies gave me the kind of hassle that Curve considers normal.

 

And yes, every company makes mistakes. What separates one from another is how they deal with them. Discmakers failed this test in my case. I shouldn't have to cuss at a sales rep to get basic service. (By the way, Curve, I tried your line, although I think without the "fucking", and it went nowhere.)

 

I don't want to have to prove how big my cojones are by calling the CEO. I just want to get my CDs made.

 

[This message has been edited by Tim Walters (edited 12-16-2000).]

[Guest]

We (Tangent) just finished our first CD, and have been selling it both in home-grown CDR form, and on www.mp3.com/tangent

 

I was pleasantly surprised at the sound quality (and general packaging/printing quality) of the CDs made by mp3.com. Not too shabby.

 

However, I've had lots more luck selling the home-grown CDRs, because few people want to give some anonomous web company a credit card number (I know I'm not comfortable with it). I've sold probably 20 CDs to people who have heard about it word-of-mouth, while only a couple have been sold over the MP3 site.

 

Not enough to quit my day job, but enough to see that people who hear it end up liking it.

This music-makingn is basically a passion, rather than a master-plan for a 3rd career, so I'm pretty happy with this setup overall.

 

Since all of these are made-on-demand, I'm not in the position of sitting on a bunch of inventory that will be dubious 'collector items' after our next CD comes out...

 

peace.

philbo

[MusicMan]

[sarcasm]I am glad to see this thread actually touched on the topic and gave us some enlightened views by real professionals who are interested in a civilized discussion, and care to help the "little" guys just trying to get a foot hold in the industry.[/sarcasm]

 

_John

 

(thanks to those that did)

[Curve Dominant]

>>Well, there you have it. Curve admits that Discmakers is too cool to deal with small orders, incompetent to work with audio and graphics, and so caught up in bureaucracy they tell you what to put on your CD cover. Yet, he thinks we should pay more for their service, because... well, because they were nice to him in 1995.<<

 

That is complete bullshit, Tim, not what I said at all, and you know it. Get your dupes wherever the f*ck you want, but don't come to this forum and put words in peep's mouths and think you'll be taken seriously here.

 

>>Discmakers was by far the most expensive, and fourth in quality.<<

 

Sound quality? Any specifics, timmyboy, or just more diarea from your mouth?

 

>>Neither of these companies gave me the kind of hassle that Curve considers normal.<<

 

There you go again. Who the f*ck said anythoing about hassles? Nobody at Discmakers EVER hassled me about ANYTHING - do we have that straight?

 

>>(By the way, Curve, I tried your line, although I think without the "fucking", and it went nowhere.<<

 

He didn't want you talking to anyone in the company with that dick-head attitude of yours. I never had to cuss at anyone at Discmakers, and they always put me directly in touch with anyone I wanted to talk to at anytime. YES, I LIKE THAT, AND WILL PAY EXTRA FOR THAT KIND OF ATTENTIVE SERVICE. If you can't afford to pay extra for the good stuff, then piss off and go to the cheaper houses.

 

I'm one of those "little" guys trying to get a hold in the industry that John just referred to, so I will pay extra and work harder to compete. That's MY way, so don't be offended if it's not YOUR way.

[Tim Walters]

Originally posted by MusicMan:

[sarcasm]I am glad to see this thread actually touched on the topic and gave us some enlightened views by real professionals who are interested in a civilized discussion, and care to help the "little" guys just trying to get a foot hold in the industry.[/sarcasm]

 

Well, I'd be much happier doing that than wrangling about CD dupe house quality, but unfortunately I'm just another guy with CDs in his basement. I never have figured out the selling part.

 

Here's something that might be useful: for my last album, I got raw, unpackaged CDs made and did the packaging myself by doing color prints onto transparencies. Everything except the CD is transparent, which gives it a unique look that fans and reviewers seem to like. This didn't cost much less than doing it the regular way, but it's possible to do nice art with a laser printer, recycled paper, and rubber stamps, and that's definitely cheaper. This allows you to release a CD for something like $600 while still getting factory-made discs rather than CD-R. (And of course, you can do CD-Rs instead, as philbo pointed out. I might do that next time, now that silver/silver discs are so cheap.)

 

Sorry to have been so negative--I don't really enjoy it, but I thought people should know that at least one guy didn't have a good experience with Discmakers.

[Tim Walters]

Curve,

 

Discussing anything with you is obviously a complete waste of time, since you can't or won't read what I say, or say what you mean.

 

Best of luck in your chosen career.

[Curve Dominant]

>>Curve,

Discussing anything with you is obviously a complete waste of time, since you can't or won't read what I say, or say what you mean.

Best of luck in your chosen career.<<

 

Yo Tim: no disrespect, indeed, I thank you for your good wishes, my good brutha. Let me explain...

 

I tend to get defensive and protective of peeps who've gone the extra mile to help me realize my work. I will run through a cedarblock wall for folks who have done right by Curve Dominant. If you are on the recieving end of that kind of loyalty from peeps around you, I'm sure you're not complaining about it.

 

>>I'm just another guy with CDs in his basement. I never have figured out the selling part.<<

 

Thank you. You have wisely brought us back around to the purpose of this thread: you made it, so how do you sell it? Is it unique? Does it have a point? Romance? Political? Street commentary? Why would someone want to buy this, or spin it at their club gig? Forget about the brick-n-mortar sh*t. Let's go philosophical. What is the objective? So you've never figured out the selling part. Same here, so let's figure it out...

[alphajerk]

selling the CD's is a job in itself. if you dont bust your ass in EVERY way, they will continue to sit in your basement.

 

at shows, tell people you have stuff for sale. make a merchandise booth. get a mailing list, have website. one of my band that did this decent summer east coast tour sold out of the cd's we made. we got stickers and put the website address on it and still get emails from people looking for cd's [gawd i got to get my e-commerce up].

 

go to stores as i said earlier. because distributors cut heavily into any profits they might see they are more than willing to deal with stocking your stuff [albiet on consignment] and sometimes go out of their way to help you out, just cut them a good deal on the price to them.

 

get as much press [send your cd everywhere with a promo kit, include a shirt, stickers, the whole kit and caboodle] as you can. even though you lose a bit of money giving them free stuff, you make it back iwth the publicity.

 

cd's dont sell themselves.