Anderton Posted December 11, 2000 Share Posted December 11, 2000 This is a spinoff from the "is tape dead?" topic. My concern is this: regardless of whether you like or dislike tubes, the handwriting is on the wall. The market that consists of tube-loving audiophiles is not enough to sustain production. Right now we're limited to low-quality tubes coming from China et al...look at a company like Groove Tubes, and how many tubes they have to sift through to get matched pairs. Soon, there will be no more tubes being made. What happens then? Will some company make tubes for an outrageous price, because that's what they'll HAVE to charge? Or by that time, will Marcus and the guys at Line 6 have figured out a way to not only emulate tubes, but go beyond? One tip: invest in NOS tubes instead of gold or the stock market!! Craig Anderton Educational site: http://www.craiganderton.org Music: http://www.youtube.com/thecraiganderton Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/craig_anderton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miroslav Posted December 11, 2000 Share Posted December 11, 2000 Originally posted by Anderton: ..Soon, there will be no more tubes being made... How soon do you estimate that in actual years? Maybe we are all heading to a point in time, sort of a NO ANALOGUE black hole, when tape, tubes, vinyl, ...etc., will all cease to exist at precisely the same moment in time. That event could very well be equal to or greater than the astronomical event that killed off the dinosaurs, but then aren't most of us "analogue" types treated as dinosaurs anyway. Well, I'm really so concerned about the death of tubes, that I am right now considering the purchase of 3 tube processors! Just call me T-Rex. Hey wait, that would be a great name for a rock & roll band...need a guitar player...must use a tube amp though...hmmm... Miroslav miroslav - miroslavmusic.com "Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alphajerk Posted December 11, 2000 Share Posted December 11, 2000 i dont like tubes in my rack, but i like them in my amps. guess i might start to invest on a stock of them for when they arent made any longer. damn the russians should be making them, they are broke. they could use the business. alphajerk FATcompilation "if god is truly just, i tremble for the fate of my country" -thomas jefferson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tedster Posted December 12, 2000 Share Posted December 12, 2000 >>Just call me T-Rex. Hey wait, that would be a great name for a rock & roll band...need a guitar player...must use a tube amp though...hmmm... Yeah, and his name would have to be Marc, yeah, that's it, and maybe ...uh, Dolan? no, BOLAN, yeah, that's it...great idea!! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif "Cisco Kid, was a friend of mine" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saplingmusic.com Posted December 12, 2000 Share Posted December 12, 2000 They won't stop making them for guitar amps anytime soon. I like the Line6 stuff, but it is NOT a warmed up tube head cranked up loud. That is a feel thing that will be very hard to duplicate. Plus, they look too damn cool! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chip McDonald Posted December 12, 2000 Share Posted December 12, 2000 Originally posted by Anderton: made. What happens then? Will some company make tubes for an outrageous price, because that's what they'll HAVE to charge? Hasn't Whirlwind bought some old tube factory here in the States? Also, doesn't Sovtek have some deal with a pre-existing plant in Russia that is doing "well", maybe the fame Svetlana factory? Guitar Lessons in Augusta Georgia: www.chipmcdonald.com Eccentric blog: https://chipmcdonaldblog.blogspot.com/ / "big ass windbag" - Bruce Swedien Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
batman forgot his cape Posted December 12, 2000 Share Posted December 12, 2000 Toobes are dead!!!...... ...Long Live..thermionic valves!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 12, 2000 Share Posted December 12, 2000 I think tubes, as they are made today, are a dying(sic?) breed. But, in the near future with cheap (really cheap) cnc and robotics, tube production can fall to something on the level of a decent machine shop - load in the computer template and let the machines go at it. Or so hopes the guy with 8 tube amps http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miroslav Posted December 12, 2000 Share Posted December 12, 2000 Maybe if all tube users target the best 2-3 tube manufactures, that will create the demand and they will continue to supply, while the low-quality stuff dies out. So what are some of the better sources of tubes right now. Any objective brand comparisons anyone cares to make? Miroslav miroslav - miroslavmusic.com "Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 12, 2000 Share Posted December 12, 2000 I agree that the tube market will not be able to sustain itself over the decde or two but really the question should be if any of us think that emulation will ever be able to truly describe the tube characteristics. I don't believe we will be able to do this with current computer technologies. Perhaps with some future technology or something but the interaction within the tube is so complex that I can't imagine a DSP being able to do it. I think that micro vacuum tube technology will begin to evolve in the next 5 years or so and may begin to show up in audio amplifiers but they won't be the same as the tubes we use today. There was a great article in Science News about a year ago about these 100 micrometer size tubes being used in new chips since they can handle higher EM levels than their solid state counterparts. How this could be applied to audio amplifiers will be interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
offramp Posted December 12, 2000 Share Posted December 12, 2000 I love tubes...I really do; got a '60 Harvard and a '71 VibroChamp. BUT... I'm terribly thrilled with my Line6 POD, and I'd be willing to wager that, were I able to do it, I could cut a hit record with the thing and have not one person tell me it wasn't an amp. Like everything else, you gotta learn to work with it. In the mix, I honestly think the differences disappear. If tube production could somehow be automated, right on!, then. In the meantime, I'm happy with what's available, my electric bill stays low, and I can cut great guitar parts (relatively speaking) at midnight without a visit from Officer Krupke. I've upped my standards; now, up yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozbassyahoo.com Posted December 13, 2000 Share Posted December 13, 2000 Going out on a limb here...... Since when did a piece of "analogue" gear HAVE to have tubes in it? There is a hell of a lot of gear out there that we are paying big money for, that makes up for fundamental design flaws by slapping a tube somewhere in the signal path. Well designed and constructed solid state gear sounds bloody fantastic - ask George M. There are two places I like tubes - three times a year I like them in a mic, and I ALWAYS like them in guitar amps - but I know they could do better. Imagine if someone came out with a POD product that instead of a cheap pre-amp knocked off from a practise amp they installed something really well done, ala a Neve or a GM - then we could get serious about it. As soon as Line 6 or their ilk start getting serious about the front end of their products, I think people will start getting serious about "retiring" some of their more fragile antique amps. I might have a greater love of tubes if every other guitarist that came into the studio didn't bring in there "lovely tube amp" didn't sound like the tubes have been used as childrens nightlights for the past twenty years..... GM Pre going into a opto-compressor going into a Neve EQ into an amp and lovely speakers - look ma no tubes..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonemonkeyyahoo.com Posted December 13, 2000 Share Posted December 13, 2000 As a dyed-in-the-wool tubehead, I find myself enthusiastically cheering on the latest wave of Digital Modeling Amplifier (DMA) fans. As I posted on another thread, I see DMAs as analogous in some respects to sampling synths... no they don't sound as good as the real thing, but they are inherently more practical, they are close enough for live work and you just can't (in the case of synths) or won't be able to get certain gigs (in the case of DMAs) unless you have one. My observation is that (still) 99% of all synth players use the factory presets. It is the rare individual that has the courage to wipe them from memory and blaze new ground. Sadly, these powerful instruments become hackneyed engines of cliche. Same with DMAs. I know lots of people using them, a few of them effectively (most of the factory presets are designed to sell DMAs at Guitar Center, *not* sit in a mix well). All the folks who sound good with DMAs have programmed their own patches (including all the demo guys at Line 6). Anyway, just as some artists continue to tour with pianos and B3s, some guitarists will continue to use REAL TUBE amps. Convincing people who don't know or don't care to use DMAs will leave more tubes for the rest of us. FWIW - I've already stockpiled enough high quality NOS tubes to last me my lifetime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackwon88 Posted December 13, 2000 Share Posted December 13, 2000 No they aren't dead & neither is my 1970 1/2 Z28. Just like tape I'll use them if they contribute and yank them and plug something else in if they don't, but as long as i can get um I will use um... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saplingmusic.com Posted December 13, 2000 Share Posted December 13, 2000 Also, half the fun with tube amps is finding weird old heads that have great and original tone. I just can't get as excited over programming an effect into a Line6. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris_54911yahoo.com Posted December 13, 2000 Share Posted December 13, 2000 No offense to the TUBE HEADS here but 1) Tube amps have been getting more and more overpriced. Easy for you that can afford them to brag and boast about them. Some of us newer players dont have the bucks to afford them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 13, 2000 Share Posted December 13, 2000 Chris - have you looked around?? There is a world of old, great sounding tube amps that are available cheaper than that Crate you got for Christmas when you got started (ya know what I mean) Small Gibsons are a GREAT value out there (you can't beat a blonde-tolex GA5 for tone), and there are lots of others. The demand has risen some lately, but tht means people are digging them out and making them available again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDLanceprodigy.net Posted December 18, 2000 Share Posted December 18, 2000 Originally posted by wormholeprod@yahoo.com: I agree that the tube market will not be able to sustain itself over the decde or two but really the question should be if any of us think that emulation will ever be able to truly describe the tube characteristics. I don't believe we will be able to do this with current computer technologies. Perhaps with some future technology or something but the interaction within the tube is so complex that I can't imagine a DSP being able to do it. I think that micro vacuum tube technology will begin to evolve in the next 5 years or so and may begin to show up in audio amplifiers but they won't be the same as the tubes we use today. There was a great article in Science News about a year ago about these 100 micrometer size tubes being used in new chips since they can handle higher EM levels than their solid state counterparts. How this could be applied to audio amplifiers will be interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bob Posted December 18, 2000 Share Posted December 18, 2000 Open up the pages of Vintage Guitar Magazine and see the boutique amp builders and the NOS tube sellers. Any of you who are tired of tubes and love your Pods, please send me the following: anything with RCA or GE on it, especially black plates; anything with Mullard or Telefunken. A good source for is: LORD_VALVE@prodigy.net Sir Bob This message has been edited by Sir Bob on 12-19-2000 at 01:11 AM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 22, 2000 Share Posted December 22, 2000 I only know my Fender Twin sounds great, it's my sound, no other Twin sounds like it. Buy a Line 6 and sound like everyone else, I guess if I were playing back-up for Mariah Carey or something it would be the perfect solution. Digital amps are very controllable, I kinda like how my amp gives me new direction by leading the way sometimes http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anderton Posted December 22, 2000 Author Share Posted December 22, 2000 >>Buy a Line 6 and sound like everyone else<< Wrong. Buy a Line 6, learn how to program it via the computer editor, and make sounds no one has heard before. Craig Anderton Educational site: http://www.craiganderton.org Music: http://www.youtube.com/thecraiganderton Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/craig_anderton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonemonkeyyahoo.com Posted December 22, 2000 Share Posted December 22, 2000 Craig- >>Wrong. Buy a Line 6, learn how to program it via the computer editor, and make sounds no one has heard before.<< I'm afraid that doing that is a 90th percentile activity. How long have we had sample-based synths and yet most gigging local pros still play the factory sounds. The same will occur with the Pod - already has. I recently had problems with my Bass Pod communicating with my MIDI port. I asked a bunch of Pod users if I could come over and check it on their computers - they hadn't even installed the SoundDiver patch editor. Of course this no excuse to diss a perfectly good tool just 'cause the users are braindead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 23, 2000 Share Posted December 23, 2000 Bah! The Flux Capactior rules. /Z Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dinopop Posted December 23, 2000 Share Posted December 23, 2000 Hey tonemonkey, Have you been able to solve your POD/MIDI problems. Let me know. I might be able to help. -Layne - Layne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dinopop Posted December 23, 2000 Share Posted December 23, 2000 Originally posted by dinopop: Hey tonemonkey, Have you been able to solve your POD/MIDI problems. Let me know. I might be able to help. -Layne Nevermind. I saw your other post where you described it as a firmware problem. I had to figure out a workaround for a glitch in the SoundDiver software itself. Hope you get things up and running. -Layne - Layne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael saulnier Posted December 23, 2000 Share Posted December 23, 2000 Originally posted by Anderton: >>Buy a Line 6 and sound like everyone else<< Wrong. Buy a Line 6, learn how to program it via the computer editor, and make sounds no one has heard before. Craig, I couldn't agree more. Once I realized the power of the software to tweek patches and presets, along with the ability to mix and match amp and cab models... my ability to get great POD sounds greatly improved. I also benefited from the ideas of other POD users... for example, Scott Henderson gave permission to post his patches on the Line6 web site. It was very interesting to see how he tweeked things for the sounds he liked. I'm curious if you'd be willing to share some / any / all of the POD patches you've found useful for your projects? I'd love to get your take on several of the models and would be very interested to see how or if you tweeked the reverbs, and other effects. guitplayer I'm still "guitplayer"! Check out my music if you like... http://www.michaelsaulnier.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael saulnier Posted December 23, 2000 Share Posted December 23, 2000 My last post really wasn't on-topic, and I also don't want to give the impression I'm a non-tube guy. My current amps are a Fender Hot Rod Deluxe and a Fender Blues Deluxe. I've got a couple of backup sets of tubes for them, and I hope when I need more they're available for a reasonable price. Ironically, one of my favorite uses for the POD is to run the outputs into the Amp In on the two amps, bypassing the pre-amps, but getting plenty of poweramp tube overdrive when they're pushed by the POD. It's really warm and gives the best live POD sound IMHO. I've A/B'd this with their own solid state amps, and no question to my ears the POD / Tube amp is superior. On the recording side, I really like the POD. With my current mics and recording setup, I can't get a better sound from my amps than I get from my well tweeked POD thru a tube pre. Plus, I can record at a moments notice, immediately have the exact sound(s) I used days or weeks before, and can get it in any room or setting. That's useful. I don't think you have to limit yourself to being solely a user of tubes or DMA's but use their capabilities where it makes sense. As far as no companies in the future making tubes... how about we start a company... I've got $5 bucks to throw down... only a million or two more and we're in business. guitplayer I'm still "guitplayer"! Check out my music if you like... http://www.michaelsaulnier.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 23, 2000 Share Posted December 23, 2000 one of my favorite uses for the POD is to run the outputs into the Amp In on the two amps, bypassing the pre-amps, but getting plenty of poweramp tube overdrive when they're pushed by the POD. Now we're talkin. I do kinda the same thing coming out of my SansAmp pedal into my Twin at times. I agree with you but I think you will always need tubes to grab unpredictable part of your sound to come out. Your set-up seems like something that would sound great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anderton Posted December 23, 2000 Author Share Posted December 23, 2000 >>Once I realized the power of the software to tweek patches and presets, along with the ability to mix and match amp and cab models my ability to get great POD sounds greatly improved...I'm curious if you'd be willing to share some / any / all of the POD patches you've found useful for your projects?<< Yes, I will be putting my patches on line as part of a POD seminar I'm working on. Also, I actually don't use the software for programming. I programmed the MIDI layer in my DA7 to do POD programming. It took about an evening, but it's sooooo much easier to move faders. Prior to that, I'd been using the Peavey PC1600 for programming. Either option beats SoundDiver (no offense Emagic) for speed and convenience. Craig Anderton Educational site: http://www.craiganderton.org Music: http://www.youtube.com/thecraiganderton Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/craig_anderton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bob Posted December 24, 2000 Share Posted December 24, 2000 Pods can sound okay and have some benefits for the home recording user. But my big problem is with how it plays. It lacks something. My playing style is on the primitive side and tubeamps just seem to work well with me. This is the same reason I prefer Fender guitars with the single-coil pickups among other traits that result in many unexplained happy accidents. There is a high level of serendipity (the faculty of finding valuable or agreeable things not sought for) when playing through a tube amp. My preferences are the Tweeds but you can give me a blackface, AC30 or plexi any time too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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