Bass/Kick roll off...

[lloydmurphyhotmail.com]

Hello,

 

I was wondering on peoples differing opinions regarding Kickdrum and Bass EQ Desk settings... How are you dealing with Low Frequency Mud???

 

Some people tend to roll off the kick at <60 or <50 mark and have a deeper bass, whilst others like to have a deeper kick and roll off the bass instead...

 

What do you do then??? eh??? What???

 

http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif

 

Lloyd.

[Anderton]

>>I was wondering on peoples differing opinions regarding Kickdrum and Bass EQ Desk settings... How are you dealing with Low Frequency Mud???<<

 

The best way to avoid mud is not in the mix, but when recording the sounds in the first place.

 

I like a nice solid "thock" at the head of the kick, as it provides enough highs to cue to the ears in to the fact that something's going on. With bass, I also like a relatively bright sound.

 

Generally, I record the kick so that if the kick and bass play simultaneously, the kick will overpower the bass.

 

One trick I've used a few times to prevent a kick/bass collision is to slide the bass track in time compared to the kick. IF you want the kick to appear more prominent, slide the bass a few milliseconds later. IF you want the melody to predominate, slide the bass ahead in time by a few milliseconds. Leave the kick as is, because that's probably the rhythmic anchor for the tune.

[Anderton]

Ooops, got distracted and never answered your original question.

 

I find EQ to be more precise. I usually use low-end cuts with mics to prevent popping and such. There are some times I'll use a cut switch to get rid of room rumble or something, but usually they aren't precise enough to solve the various problems that crop up, at least for me.

[alphajerk]

mud for me lies in the 300hz range. i also notice crappy pres play i BIG part in making the mudpie. good power supplies and good pres make for tight bass.

 

 

you can roll off everthing below 20hz for sure as you cant hear it but some say [like me] that there is something missing when you do that.

 

 

another god trick for conflicting bass/kick is to trigger the compressor on the bass to the kick track, when the kick hits, it ducks the bass real quick. of course like everything, it doesnt always work.

[Guest]

According to my mode calculator the fundamental mode frequency of 20" - 24" bass drums is around 300Hz - http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gifhttp://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif

 

cheers

john

[Anderton]

>>According to my mode calculator <<

 

Uhhh...what's that?!?

 

I guess it's for calculating pi, a la mode.

[Fletcher]

Originally posted by lloydmurphy@hotmail.com:

I was wondering on peoples differing opinions regarding Kickdrum and Bass EQ Desk settings... How are you dealing with Low Frequency Mud???

 

Depends on the song. Some songs want the kik to live under the bass, some songs want the bass to live under the kik...alot of songs want the kik to 'reinforce' the bass [as in melt in and become part of it] on the 1 & 3...others want the kik to have alot of 'whack' and presence.

 

My point is, there are no rules. I don't think I've ever walked up to a desk and said "I'm gonna do this ____" before I've heard the song, the arrangement, or tried to figure out where the different tones are asking to be placed in the spectrum.

 

One thing I have found handy...with a pair of NS-10's...bring them up to about 100db-SPL. Watch the woofer surrounds, watch them 'crinkle' when the kik hits. Now bring up a variable high-pass filter on the kik until the bottom gets punchy, but the surrounds don't crinkle. You might need a little of that on the bass too [or vice-versa--YMMV]...then you can often back off on the filter on the kik a bit.

 

Often, the phase shift caused by the 'filter' on the bottom will really make the bottom 'indistinct and flappy'...in which case, slicing off the "way bottom" with a digital EQ during mastering seems to be a preferable way to go. It's one of the truly unfortunate side effects of analog equalizers...especially in that frequency range...oh well...

 

Again, it's a question of what the song/arrangement is telling you it wants. Every time I try to "muscle" the stuff to go somewhere I want it to go, but it doesn't necessarily want to go...I have a problem.

 

As for 'low frequency mud'...that's usually "lower midrange mud"...which more often than not is caused by an instrument other than kik or bass. FWIW, I've found that most of the time when I try pulling that 250-300Hz range out of a kik/bass I lose the presence and size of the instruments. When I lessen the same region on guitars/vocals/keyboards, then my mix starts to clear up...though I may lose some intimacy...as always, every song is different, and will tell you what it wants if you listen to it.

 

Quick question for Craig...while I've slid a bass back in time, it's usually to make the part feel 'greasier', I've never done it for sonic reasons, but for "feel" reasons. If you're sliding the bass player around in time for sonic reasons, how do you deal with the way it changes the feel of the song? [i'm serious about the question, as in *way* interested in the answer...I'm not trying to be an asshole, though I'm afraid it may have come out that way].

 

-----

 

Fletcher

Mercenary Audio http://www.mercenary.com

[lloydmurphyhotmail.com]

Hey, thanks guys!

 

Anderton - I'm not really recording live drums or bass - I'm creating synth models, so the actual recording process doesn't really matter. Sliding the track can be done by a delay in my sequence, but because I'm writing fast parts, this will cause a noticable groove change, which in itself is a cool effect, but inappropriate for my musical style. The 'thock' sound is something which I've overlooked when creating sounds, but I can remedy this with careful overlaying of other sounds to 'accent' the hit.

 

alphajerk - Eeek! Removing all the sub 20hz??? That would really hurt the bass don't ya think?? Subbass is an important part of my music, and I agree that killing off this frequency would leave a big gap.

 

Fletcher - I'll have a go with ripping the lower mid out of other instruments, or at least rolling it off a bit. I'm sure that some sounds have low frequencies even if it's not immediately apparent by listening...

 

This leads me to another question:

 

I currently record all synths and modules through a digital mixer and mastering units, etc, and then into a computer...

 

I was wondering if there's any decent software that will analyse the sound input frequency in real time???

 

I use the spectagraph in Wavelab at the moment, but that requires me to record the sound first.

 

Is there a real-time version of this...???

 

Thanks!

 

Lloyd.

[alphajerk]

not in all situations it doesnt. remember, there is a lot of energy usage down there that you need to reproduce it and it isnt always necessary to have it in there.

 

remember, there are no rules.

[Curve Dominant]

>>One trick I've used a few times to prevent a kick/bass collision is to slide the bass track in time compared to the kick. IF you want the kick to appear more prominent, slide the bass a few milliseconds later. IF you want the melody to predominate, slide the bass ahead in time by a few milliseconds. Leave the kick as is, because that's probably the rhythmic anchor for the tune.<<

 

This post is one of the reasons why Craig is the Kung Fu Grand Master. Especially considering that if you're layering tracks via midi - groovebox, sequencer, or whatever - moving the bassline a hair ahead of the beat will nicely simulate a bass player "swinging" ahead of the beat. The longer the differential, the harder the swing. SWEEEEET!

[Anderton]

>>Quick question for Craig...while I've slid a bass back in time, it's usually to make the part feel 'greasier', I've never done it for sonic reasons, but for "feel" reasons. If you're sliding the bass player around in time for sonic reasons, how do you deal with the way it changes the feel of the song? <<

 

Good question. What I find is that the delay needed to accomplish a sonic change is much shorter than that needed to create a feel change. For example, shifting by 5 ms doesn't make that big a difference in the feel, but it makes big difference in the sound. For me, the feel thing really kicks in starting at around 5 ms or so. I'm not saying that lesser values don't change the feel, just that it's not a huge change.

[Anderton]

For what it's worth...

 

I usually chop everything off below 20 Hz as one of the final acts in mastering (just prior to normalization, if applicable). The reason why is there can be a lot of low-end garbage that results from various modulation effects. This will give more of a sense of depth, in a way, but it has nothing to do with the music and ultimately seems to just take up bandwidth. Of course, if you have premeditated signal down there, that's a different story. But overall, as far as I'm concerned, going down to a true 20 Hz should be enough! I can live without the 2 octaves between 5 and 20 Hz.

 

I had one tune that seemed unmasterable. Only after checking out the individual pieces of digital audio did I find one that had been transposed down to the point of creating an oscillating DC offset!! This made it impossible to get decent levels. Hi-passing the signal saved the day.