Have Software Companies Gone Too Far?

[Anderton]

...In the sense that they're pushing too hard to get new product out the door, and are releasing buggy software. Do you find this to be the case? Do you wait until a few revs have passed before upgrading?

 

Then again, an argument could be made that the permutations and combinations possible with computer-based setups are so numerous that NO company could ever hope to adequately test software prior to release. In fact, the path yo bug-free software revs might actually be faster if people serve as "unpaid beta testers."

 

I've heard AOL works this way -- they release what they have, and wait for complaints to pour in. Then they fix the most common, or irksome, problems. AOL is notorious for initial releases that truly suck, but they get updates in progress pretty fast.

 

What's the solution? Do you want to wait until they get things right? Are you willing to put up with a few bugs? Do you just want to play "Press" and "Record" on an ADAT or VS-880 and not have to worry about compubugs?

 

Let's discuss...

 

n.p. "Rare Reggae Grooves from Studio One"

[Lee Flier]

Grrr... you've just hit on one of my pet peeves.

 

You know, I wouldn't mind it so much being an unpaid beta tester if the companies would just be honest about it. As a software developer, I remember that even less than 10 years ago most companies were pretty good about waiting until the majority of bugs were fixed before releasing their wares. But, they would also have a public beta testing period where you could get their beta software for a reduced price, and you would KNOW it was beta software.

 

The problem with companies releasing software as "final" when it isn't might not be so bad for the casual user, but if you depend on this software for your living, it can be a real killer. For example when Windows 95 was released, most of our clients wanted software that would run on either Win 3.1 or Win 95. Microsoft promised that their development environments would produce software that was backward compatible, but the fact of the matter is that it wasn't, and because of their promises (and the fact that their software had generally been reliable up to that point so we trusted them), our business lost thousands. I'm sure the same thing happens to Pro Tools engineers and the like. Now, we warn clients not to upgrade until a new release has proven to be reliable. Some listen to us, some don't, but at least we cover our butts.

 

The problem is that now it's very hard to be honest, because everyone is so anxious to get their product to market before the other guy that if you're honest you'll probably be left behind. Far as I can tell, Microsoft started that trend and we are all the worse off for it.

 

I should also say that, although I agonized for several months waiting for Yamaha to release the AW4416, and they doubtless lost some customers to the competition because of delays working through software bugs, I admire them greatly for not releasing it prematurely. And each time I called or wrote them inquiring about the release date, I made sure I let them know that. There seems to be a bare minimum of anomalies in the 4416's OS and so far no outright crashes at all. When you are trusting this machine with your artistic babies, it's important to have confidence in it, IMO!

 

--Lee

[Anderton]

>>The problem is that now it's very hard to be honest, because everyone is so anxious to get their product to market before the other guy that if you're honest you'll probably be left behind. Far as I can tell, Microsoft started that trend and we are all the worse off for it.<<

 

Well I'm not sure I'd credit Microsoft with the invention of vaporware, but they certainly have perfected the art of same. The curious thing is there's no real competition for PC operating systems, so what competition are they trying to forestall by pre-announcing? It's not like we're all going to out and run Linux if Windows ships a few months late. I think it's just over-optimism -- "Sure, we'll get that code done by Friday."

 

There's one other option I hadn't mentioned: software with stable core features, but missing features slated for later inclusion. I remember when the Emulator II came out, it was very stable, but they had promised SMPTE sync. Well, that wasn't delivered until, as I recall, at least a year later...but at least it showed up. Would you rather have features that simply aren't there, as opposed to features that may have occasional problems?

[Ethan Winer]

Craig,

 

Great topic, as usual.

 

> they're pushing too hard to get new product out the door, and are releasing buggy software.<

 

Yes, this happens way too often. And since it happens more regularly with some companies than with others, I have to assume it's each company's policy and not so much the complexities of Windows. I have many programs that have never once even hiccuped after years of use - DreamStation soft synth, SAW series of multitrack programs - so I know it is possible to release stable software.

 

Then again, I am fanatic about keeping my system clean, tuned up, defragged, etc. with nothing else ever running in the background. Too often I visit friends who have AOL running in the system tray, Yahoo Instant messenging, etc. Ya gotta get rid of that stuff if you want a stable PC! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif

 

--Ethan

[tonemonkeyyahoo.com]

DISCLAIMER: I work as a tech writer, doc manager and webmaster for a small software company.

 

There's a lot of things that drive vaporware... Marketing has to place ads several months in advance, stuff gets rushed for critical trade shows, etc. In our case, we feel pretty good if our stuff goes out the door and we're pretty sure we won't break anything or bring a customer's system to its knees.

 

Actually, I think Microsoft is doing better than average in this regard. Of course, they have the staff to pull it off. Very few of their bugs are ever deal-killers.

 

Regarding music software... I'm still kind of ticked at PG Music for some Band In A Box bugs. When I upgraded from version 6 to version 9, I lost the ability to have all my working files in a directory of my choosing - BIAB really REALLY wants a user's working files to be dumped into the app root dir (arghh!). Also, you can't save a file using long file names on Win NT or Win 2K (double arghh!!). Yes, there are workarounds and I use them but I curse PG Music under my breath as I do so. This is braindead.

 

Apparently, the PG folks are Mac-centric and don't think this is a problem. Heck, they JUST (as in TODAY) announced BIAB version 10. Guess what? Win 2K isn't even listed as a supported OS. Someone needs to whack those guys across the head!

[Guest]

I'm glad to see that Apple is taking their time releasing OS X to work out all the bugs and have followed the public beta testing scheme. I'm happy to wait a little longer for hard/soft wares in order for them to work fine. it is true that as complexity increases it becomes more difficult to pin point conflicts or outright bugs but that is why the public beta testing model works so well. It is unfortunate that Microsoft rushes their product to market since as Craig stated they have no real PC OS competitor. I think that companies need to have a group of initail internal beta testers to ensure against System wide bugs but then release the beta for public testing.

MicroSoft appears to have a short term view that is based on their dominance and their customers lack of options.

Glad I have a Mac.

[Lee Flier]

Originally posted by Anderton:

Well I'm not sure I'd credit Microsoft with the invention of vaporware, but they certainly have perfected the art of same.

 

I'm not really talking about vaporware so much as the "unpaid guinea pig" syndrome. For a long time, Microsoft wouldn't even own up that some of the bugs in its systems were bugs. If they'd been honest, I'm sure the development community would have been happy to contribute to testing.

 

They have gotten a bit better about this in the last couple of years, but now a lot of other companies have jumped on their bandwagon.

 

The curious thing is there's no real competition for PC operating systems, so what competition are they trying to forestall by pre-announcing? It's not like we're all going to out and run Linux if Windows ships a few months late.

 

I wasn't referring to the OS's so much as their applications. They develop a new OS, and of course they have the edge on developing their own apps for their own OS, so they want to get them both to market at the same time, and they don't want to share specs with other developers before they get their own apps out. If those apps are buggy, we're stuck with that for quite awhile and to make matters worse we often don't know whether the problem is with the app or the OS.

 

That is one of many reasons I support the idea of a dedicated OS for audio and video. It'd be great if a standard one could be developed, so that different hardware and apps could share standards and exchange files, but in the meantime I'd rather even deal with a mishmash of specialized OS's than try to run audio on Windows or Mac OS.

Then too I don't really like the standard PC hardware for audio either. I look forward to the day when most of us are using specialized hardware/software solutions that make sense.

 

There's one other option I hadn't mentioned: software with stable core features, but missing features slated for later inclusion. I remember when the Emulator II came out, it was very stable, but they had promised SMPTE sync. Well, that wasn't delivered until, as I recall, at least a year later...but at least it showed up. Would you rather have features that simply aren't there, as opposed to features that may have occasional problems?

 

I'd rather they either weren't there, or (preferably) they are there but it's well documented that they are not stable yet. I don't mind being a pioneer or a guinea pig so long as I know I am being one.

 

--Lee

[dansouth]

Most of the music software that I've used has been remarkably reliable, but then, I use a Mac. The Mac is such a solid platform that it's almost like cheating to compare it to that Washington company.

 

AOL is buggy, as is hotmail and lots of "business" software, particularly Microsoft Outlook, which was apparantly written by a team of drunken chimipanzees. On the other hand, ReBirth and Logic haven't given me any problems at all.

 

I appreciate downloadable releases and upgrades. Emagic does a nice job of this.

 

The thing that really irks me - and in this regard, hardware companies are every worse than the software vendors - is when products are announced too far in advance. Take Layla. Please. Mackie d8b Release 3.0 is another example. And the Kurzweil K2000.

 

Why do they do this? It seems to me that an early announcement just gives the competition a head start, plus it infuriates potential customers. Manufacturers should take a hint from Roland. They release their new VariPhrase processor - a breakthrough product - without so much as a whisper of early publicity.

[Lee Flier]

I guess I don't mind pre-announcements so much. Just to use my experience of the AW4416 again, if Yamaha hadn't publicized it well in advance I'd probably have gotten the VS-1680, and no offense to happy 1680 users, but if I'd done that I would now be really pissed. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif

 

--Lee

 

[This message has been edited by Lee Flier (edited 12-01-2000).]

[alphajerk]

"AOL is notorious for initial releases that truly suck"

 

thats isnt the only thing AOL is notorious for, they SUCK AS A WHOLE. i would never give into using AOL and the people who do deserve every problem they get.

 

that said. i RARELY have problems with bugs. so im not sure of what you are even talking about. both my audio [mac/dp] and graphics [windoze] systems have been highly reliable [with the one exception of corel]. Macromedia IS a company who releases a FREE beta for every rev of their product and have participated in that quite a number of times.

 

LIFE itself is beta testing and its a bit unrealistic to expect everything work flawlessly. its like saying why is there pain and suffering in the world, didnt GOD do enough beta testing before he released the universe?

 

Microsoft if guiltier of far greater things than buggy software. first and foremost, making an OS that is far more [but really less] than just an OS just to get rid of unwanted competition. with 98, i feel as if my whole computer is open to the internet with the way it works. i HATE the incorporation of the browser. I WANT JUST AN OPERATING SYSTEM, not one filled with all these "extras". it would be more streamlined instead of overweight tying up valuable system resources and to be more efficient.

[Alon]

What about Mac OSX ?

 

Here you have thousands of dedicated Mac users who shelled out good money for a buggy Beta version.

 

When the real one ships, they might still have to pay the full retail price...(It's not known if they'll get some sort of rebate/compensation yet...)

 

This is probably possible, because of all the Hardcore Mac Fanatics...

 

Could this same thing have been done on a Windows platform ?

 

Anyway, I haven't installed OSX myself, for fear of messing with all my other stuff on the computer that I need to have working %100.

 

Upgrades to software is a good thing, as long as the company doesn't come out with a new version every 1/2 a year that they charge a lot for.

 

I can understand a company releasing something that has a few minor bugs here and there...But releasing something that has hundreds or thousands of bugs is unacceptable...(Can anyone say MicroSoft ?)

 

As for AO(HEL)L, all I can say is I'm glad I'm not using it...

[dansouth]

Originally posted by Lee Flier:

I guess I don't mind pre-announcements so much. Just to use my experience of the AW4416 again, if Yamaha hadn't publicized it well in advance I'd probably have gotten the VS-1680, and no offense to happy 1680 users, but if I'd done that I would now be really pissed. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif

 

--Lee

 

Lee, I'm with you 100% on this, but the AW4416 was shipped within nine months of its announcement at Winter NAMM. The other products I mentioned were delayed by twice that interval. A little anticipation can be fun, but after a while it gets ridiculous.

 

Initially, the long delay worked for Layla, because people held off buying competing products. But the 2408 came out shortly after the Layla shipped, and no one wanted Layla any longer. Her market lifespan was remarkably short when you consider how long people waited for her.

 

Strange business!

[Anderton]

>>That is one of many reasons I support the idea of a dedicated OS for audio and video. It'd be great if a standard one could be developed, so that different hardware and apps could share standards and exchange files, but in the meantime I'd rather even deal with a mishmash of specialized OS's than try to run audio on Windows or Mac OS. <<

 

Isnt' what the BeOS is/was supposed to be about?

[Anderton]

My favorite example of shipping a product too early was with a sound card that shall go nameless. I tried to install it, following the instructions to the letter. I refused to work. Frustrated, I contacted the company and was cheerfully told that it was impossible to get the card working if I followed the instructions, and I needed to do some weird DOS patch (this was several years ago). This was not documented anywhere, even on the web site.

 

Then there was the company that released a PC version of a software synth. I just couldn't get it to work right. The company said they'd sold hundreds of the products, and no one had complained, so it must be something with my system.

 

Fast forward 3 months. I receive a sheepish call from someone at the company saying that indeed, there was a major problem with the PC engine, and the program indeed could not work right. Naturally, they fixed it...but we always wondered what happened with the hundreds of others. Did they not try it? Give up? Assume the fault was theirs?

[Anderton]

One more thing...those of you who are saying "well gee, I don't have that many bugs, it's not that bad..." The reason you're saying that is probably because someone like Jim Aikin or Mitch Gallagher received an early copy for review, found a lot of bugs, wrote a scathing review, and sent it in to the manufacturer, who then worked round the clock to squash the bugs so the reviewer could try the fixed version before the review went to print!! This really does happen.

[alphajerk]

well i dearly thank you Jim Aikin or Mitch Gallagher

[trick fall]

Ya know, I just hooked up my new 2408 yesterday and was having some probs figuring it out. The worst part about the computer thing is you just can't trust it, I'm all ways wondering whether I'm doing something wrong or if their is indeed some kind of bug. The uncertainty definitely leads to a more in depth troubleshooting process, at least for me.

[alphajerk]

how often does this happen: everything is working great right. then one day it just starts screwing up for a while, you changed NOTHING but somehow what once worked doesnt. then you come back to it later and all of the sudden its working again. ghosts in the machine?

[Uh Clem]

Originally posted by alphajerk:

how often does this happen: everything is working great right. then one day it just starts screwing up for a while, you changed NOTHING but somehow what once worked doesnt. then you come back to it later and all of the sudden its working again. ghosts in the machine?

 

I think the perception happens all the time. After having worked in the computer industry for over 15 years, I have yet to see a case where this happens in reality.

 

Hardware failure can manifest itself as a "change" or the user has actually changed something inadvertently. Either one of these is always the culprit for the careful observer. Most hardware that survives the 1st 3 months will last for a very long time (with the exception of hard disks perhaps).

 

 

-posted from a completely reliable Microsoft Windows 2000 system, implemented with absolutely no special hardware, magic, or slight of hand whatsoever. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif

 

 

[This message has been edited by stevepow (edited 12-01-2000).]

[alphajerk]

i have had several "cases" over my countless years working on computers from the first home PC's to now.

 

this one time was the weirdest. my sampler wouldnt boot up right when i needed it for this hip hop session so i kept trying and trying. gave up on it after like 20 minutes, and as SOON as the session was over, it booted fine and has ever since.

 

my HP laserjet 6mp just stopped working due to lack of memory after printing fine for 2 years. im thinking the memory went bad on it. i changed nothing. it only prints the tops of pages and then an out of memory page.

 

i have had countless other similar experiences with modems, scanners. shit my 2408 fixed itself after dealing with its problem for 6 months [well more like avoiding it], just started working right.

 

 

you know what bothers me the most [and i fully understand why this happens due to idiot computer owners] is being talked down to on tech support. 5 minutes into a call, they are loving me since they dont have to tell me every step along the way. now the first thing i tell them is that im computer literate [its rare that i have to call in the first place, but when i do, i usually stump the techs]

[Steven Denike]

Dear Bob,

You're going to have to fix my disappearing CD burner! I knew someone would turn up who could do it!

(see what I mean in CUBASE 5 fix)

[Jim Aikin]

Originally posted by Anderton:

One more thing...those of you who are saying "well gee, I don't have that many bugs, it's not that bad..." The reason you're saying that is probably because someone like Jim Aikin or Mitch Gallagher received an early copy for review, found a lot of bugs, wrote a scathing review, and sent it in to the manufacturer, who then worked round the clock to squash the bugs so the reviewer could try the fixed version before the review went to print!! This really does happen.

 

Gee, maybe I ought to get combat pay. ;-)

 

I don't think we ever write "scathing" reviews. We sometimes say scathing things under our breath while writing *honest* reviews. I much prefer, when possible, to be supportive of the industry by writing glowing reviews of wonderful products. It's a small industry, after all; not even Steinberg and Emagic can throw programmers at a job the way Apple and M!@#$^&ft do.

 

But ultimately you have to take the larger view that being "supportive of the industry" means supporting musicians. And it's true that we do regularly spot bugs and receive bugfix updates before press time. I found an amusing one last month in the Supernova II rack. It wasn't letting you edit the envelopes' velocity response. (Version 1.5 fixes this.)

 

Craig may be right that a software developer who finds him/herself on the phone with a magazine reviewer has a little extra incentive to squash those bugs quickly. Right now, as it happens, I'm in the middle of an especially thorny review of version 1.0 of some new Mac software. No names need be mentioned. This particular release suffers from what I consider a fatal defect -- one of the more striking programming oversights I've seen. It's not, technically speaking, a bug, it's a design flaw, and that may make it harder to fix. I'm not much of a programmer, but this one looks rather worrisome to me. I'll be speaking with the company on Monday, and we'll see what happens.

 

I very much dislike the feeling that I'm forcing people to jump through hoops, especially after they've worked so hard on their new baby. I prefer to confine my native arrogance to my political opinions. But if this company isn't able to fix the problem by the deadline of our March issue (i.e., before NAMM), I'll have to be the messenger who shouts the bad news.

 

--Jim Aikin

[Curve Dominant]

>>I look forward to the day when most of us are using specialized hardware/software solutions that make sense.<<

 

This is exactly why I opted for the Roland VS880EX, because to me, it was the perfect MIDI solution, as opposed to the complex, unstable, and unpredictable (although theoretically more powerful) PC-based systems that a lot of my friends were using. Even when they tried to sell me on getting DP, etc, they invariably would descend into lengthy explainations concerning peripherals I would need and modifications to my Mac that would be neccesary; then out would come the horror stories about all the bewilderingly f*cked-up things that might occur while in the midst of trying to make a deadline. Instead of selling me, they scared me to death! I wanted to keep on composing, without taking a year off to learn tech. Eventually I bought the VS to record two infomercials for Sloane Valve Company, and I had them both finished in two weeks; the client was delighted with the results. It's been six months with the VS now, and I'm still totally satisfied.

 

PS to Lee and Dan: what specifically makes the AW4416 more desirable than the VS1680? Just curious. (And, no offense taken; I thought the 880 was a better deal than the 1680 (?!).) And if the AW4416 is THAT cool, can I sync one to my VS? Would I then be, like, Flash Gordon meets SuperFly?

[alphajerk]

curve,

 

i have been using DP for several years and started with v 2.1[? or 2.0] and back then while simplistic worked fine. NOW, its pretty damn powerful and stable as hell. yea you gotta trash all extensions that arent audio related but thats about it. and im using a vintage 9600 still [buying a new MAC when i cant hold out any longer which means real soon, waiting for the next upgrade now or for them to support dual processors]. i absolutely love it. i can get more tracks than i ever need and you would love the new drum editor. its one hella program and i got to hand it to the motu programmers, they have done one hell of a job keeping it stable with a mass of upgrades [most FREE] that i have been getting.

 

im not trying to sell you on it, you gotta use what works for you.

[Curve Dominant]

>>yea you gotta trash all extensions that arent audio related<<

 

This is why I opted out: my bluetower G3 is LOADED with extensions relating to my graphic-design side, so I didn't want to put that system in jeopardy. But I have used DP (in a friend's studio, and operated by said friend) on two major projects, and both netted some major $$$ and killer accolades in the local press, so I am sold, definitely. I got the VS 'cause I wanted to get my digital feet wet without drowning in it.

 

I think when I open my next studio, I might opt for a couple of dedicated duel-processor G4s w/DP (if a version that takes advantage of Alti-vec is available), or Cubase (which already has a version for duel-proc). As it stands, I have a Logic VS app (no audio, just sequencing) that will run the VS & all my other midi gear in sync. Haven't tested it yet, but I'll pick up a MOTU XT interface & let you know if it flies. Emagic seems to get a lot of props on these forums, so I'm cautiously optimistic.

[Guest]

Originally posted by Anderton:

...In the sense that they're pushing too hard to get new product out the door, and are releasing buggy software. Do you find this to be the case? Do you wait until a few revs have passed before upgrading?"

 

The thing that drives me crazy lately is that I upgrade a program I've been using for a while and they've added a bunch of bloated unnecessary junk to it that interferes with its function, and makes me sorry I upgraded.

Examples:

Netscape now comes with AOL instant messaging built in.

 

Eudora has some bogus voice-mail feature that actually keeps it from working at all (I went back to an old version of Eudora Lite, which was simple, robust and free)

 

Real Player has a built-in back door server that relays all the URLs you visit back to the home office (for unknown purposes).

 

I removed each of these programs from my system, and add a permanent firewall block so my kids can't accidentally download & reinstall them - I just can't have this kind of crap running on my PC!

 

I hope someday these companies wise up and stop making software design decisions that are driven by bean counters in marketing who don't care if the product works as long as it temporarily buys them a few thousandths of percent of market share.

[ajcamletearthlink.net]

Does anyone know what *really* happened to BeOS as an audio/video OS? Last I heard they were re-tooling (i.e back peddling) away from that goal.....not to mention very few developers jumping on the band wagon....

 

ajc

[Sergievsky]

Hey Jim A., Craig, and all reviewers.

 

Don't be too nice and accomodating regarding design flaws and bugs. Especially bugs. If they're dumb enough to send it to you guys like that then teach them. Perhaps the next time they release something it'll work right. I just don't understand it. I mean, it's SO easy for a product to get a reputation that it doesn't work properly, either by word of mouth or through the net. In any case, keep up the good work with the mags.

 

Raul

[Anderton]

>>I think the perception happens all the time. After having worked in the computer industry for over 15 years, I have yet to see a case where this happens in reality.<<

 

I've had Windows fix itself a couple of times. I was naturally curious how this could happen, and someone who knows a lot more about it explained the basic concept. To simplify (and maybe misinterpret!), if you have a hardware problem and Windows tries to find the peripheral, it can hang. So you reboot, and it either knows to ignore the problem, or loads a backup registry. I think the loading of a backup registry is sometimes why things appear to work the next time you turn the computer on -- something has in fact changed.

[Anderton]

>>I don't think we ever write "scathing" reviews. We sometimes say scathing things under our breath while writing *honest* reviews.<<

 

Okay, I'll go for that. Perhaps I should have said "reviews that accurately identify Things That Suck, and therefore cause manufacturers to complain that you write scathing reviews."

 

See, I told you he edited my columns : )