Guest Posted December 1, 2000 Share Posted December 1, 2000 Hi! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif Me and the bassplayer in our band had a talk about bass-sound this evening. We both agreed that the sound from his amp could be a lot better, but we really can't figure out how to get there. So I thought maybe some of you guys could help. The gear is this: Musicman bass (5 str.), Demeter preamp, Carvin poweramp (stereo) and a Ampeg 8x10" cabinet. Well the amptower looks big and impressive but the sound is poor. It won't "come out" of the speakers. It's very little good and fat low end. It sounds like there is a lowcutfilter in the chain. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/frown.gif Is it possible that the poweramp is the problem? It's a PA poweramp. The poweramp is in bridgemode, but is that really doing anything to the power when we are only using one channel on the amp? Thanks Richard http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dansouth Posted December 1, 2000 Share Posted December 1, 2000 Have you used this rig in multiple locations? Are the results always disappointing? Or are you having problems only in a single room? If the latter is true, the room acoustics may be defeating bass frequencies. You may want to analyze the room with a spectrum analyzer and take corrective action. If the amp sounds weak wherever you play, check your gain structure. Make certain that the bass is plugged into an instrument level input on the preamp. Make sure that the preamp feed to the amp is patched correctly. If, vor example, you are sending the signal out of the high end of a crossover you'll lose all of your low end. Next, ensure that the amp is connected to the speakers correctly using the correct impedance settings AND a speaker cable. Do NOT use an instrument cable for this connection. Keep in mind that bass amps create impressive sound several meters in front of the amp, but they can sound wimpy when you're standing right in front of them. If the bass has active pickups, replace its battery to ensure that it's fully charged. Try lots of different EQ settings on the bass (tone controls) and the preamp. The bass player may be in a habit of setting them in a way that worked for another amp or room, but not this one. Start by setting all controls "flat", i.e. at their center positions. Defeat any "voicing filters" if you have them. Finally, I would ask another bass player to stop by and play the rig - with his own bass and also with your bass player's bass - while you and the bass player sit back and listen. Tell him to set it up any way he likes. If this player gets a good tone, ask him how he did it. If all else fails, have the equipment checked out, but I don't think you'll find any technical problems. It sounds as though you just need to make some adjustments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nhcomp45aol.com Posted December 1, 2000 Share Posted December 1, 2000 Is it playing loud, is the cab rated at 8 ohms.If the amp is bridged it may not want to drive less than 8 ohms.That could put the amp into current limiting mode. Also that amp may have a very high damping factor.Should be no higher than 100 to 1 for bass.A tube bass head sounds big and full because its damping factor is less than 15 to 1.Also a 10 inch speaker is very clean sounding compared to a 15.Cheap 15s seem to have the fullest sound but along with distortion, something that I like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BP3 Posted December 1, 2000 Share Posted December 1, 2000 Try taking the direct out of the Demeter(without the amp or SVT) and see how that sounds, either in a studio or through your PA. If you like the tone, then it's most likely the power amp / SVT cab combination. Also, be sure that the amp can handle the load of the SVT cab. If you don't like the DI from the Demeter, check the bass itself. Maybe try different strings. Also check what processing is used and A/B the tone from the Demeter with/without the pedals/effects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anderton Posted December 1, 2000 Share Posted December 1, 2000 All these tips are good. Start by checking the impedance match between power amp and speaker. Also, it's very true that you need to use heavy-duty cables between power amp and speaker. And see what's going on inside the speaker cabinet -- there may be some phase mismatches with the speakers. Unless they're all in phase, you could be having some thinness there. Also, are you dealing with a closed or open-back speaker design? Craig Anderton Educational site: http://www.craiganderton.org Music: http://www.youtube.com/thecraiganderton Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/craig_anderton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 1, 2000 Share Posted December 1, 2000 Thanks guys! It is a closed speaker design. We have used the preamp DI when recording. I remember I did push the eq button and turning them knobs a little. It was in my opinion a little thin with the eq bypassed. Well, I'm gonna try what you suggested. Thanks Richard http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fletcher Posted December 1, 2000 Share Posted December 1, 2000 Originally posted by hjemmen@online.no: The gear is this: Musicman bass (5 str.), Demeter preamp, Carvin poweramp (stereo) and a Ampeg 8x10" cabinet. Well...first thing he probably wants to do is get rid of the 'banjo' and get a bass. Banjos have 5 strings, basses have 4, good basses say "Fender" on the headstock. Because they attempt to create a note which may be unreproducable with anything smaller than a large Sound Reinforcement system, you're not getting anything usable out of that thing...certainly not out of an 8x 10" cabinet. It's part of the problem. The second thing I'd recommend is to get the Ampeg SVT top that goes so nicely with that cabinet. Take him 'mic' and 'DI' in...blend to taste. Of course, 95% of a bass player's tone comes from their hands...so if the brother can't get a tone playing with just a DI into the system [a simple transformer DI, nothing fancy], pick up the phone and hire a player that can play. You can still use him "live", but when recording, get a real bass player, it'll make everyone's life a whole lot easier. ----- Fletcher Mercenary Audio http://www.mercenary.com Fletcher Mercenary Audio Roscoe Ambel once said: Pro-Tools is to audio what fluorescent is to light Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dansouth Posted December 1, 2000 Share Posted December 1, 2000 Originally posted by Fletcher@mercenary.com: Well...first thing he probably wants to do is get rid of the 'banjo' and get a bass. Banjos have 5 strings, basses have 4, good basses say "Fender" on the headstock. Let's not forget that the Music Man company was started by a gentleman with the name "Fender" on his drivers license. The MM5 is a solid instrument, and it is NOT the problem in this case. Even if the amp has trouble reproducing B-string tones - an 8x10 should work nicely unless it's in need of repair - the other four strings should sound fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ST.Morigeaugte.net Posted December 2, 2000 Share Posted December 2, 2000 Originally posted by dansouth@yahoo.com: Let's not forget that the Music Man company was started by a gentleman with the name "Fender" on his drivers license. Bingo dansouth!!! A Banjo..?!? Yo Fletch you ain't played with a really great 5 player have you? That 5 played correctly, through a good rig, should rumble your soul!! A 5 allows access to an extremely low register, from which you can run groove that will add so much color to your sound. That is unless your playing straight 4/4 and ain't leaving the roots. hjemmen... Ya came to the right place! Most of these folks will give ya good advice.. Good Luck. Oh... your Lowender.... He Da Man!! Mo http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/cool.gif [This message has been edited by Mo Thumper (edited 12-01-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fletcher Posted December 2, 2000 Share Posted December 2, 2000 Originally posted by Mo Thumper: Originally posted by dansouth@yahoo.com: Let's not forget that the Music Man company was started by a gentleman with the name "Fender" on his drivers license. And while Lee Iacocca was behind the introduction the Ford "Mustang", he was also behind the introduction of the Chrysler "K-car"...my point being that even the great ones are not infallable. A Banjo..?!? Yo Fletch you ain't played with a really great 5 player have you? No Mo, I don't gig anymore, I have tried to record a 'low B', and harder still, I've tried to mix that 'low B' that was introduced to an arrangement where it had no business being introduced. I no longer do recording gigs that involve a 'low B'. In terms of 'sound reinforcement' gigs, most "club systems" are incapable of reproducing that low 'B' as well. Then again, most of the players you find in clubs playing the 'elitist bass banjo of the apocalypse' are incapable of playing something with 4 strings, so the 'added level of difficulty' is merely a crutch to obscure their inability to operate the instrument. That said, there are a whole lot of players that can operate the instrument, and do it well. There are also a whole lot of venues/sound reinforcement systems that are capable of handling the 'low B' rumble, and there are even recording applications where the arrangement of the music does indeed leave the requisite space for a 'bass banjo', but all of these are few and far between. That 5 played correctly, through a good rig, should rumble your soul!! A 5 allows access to an extremely low register, from which you can run groove that will add so much color to your sound. That is unless your playing straight 4/4 and ain't leaving the roots. Yeah...lack of that '5th string' really messed with Duck Dunn's or Larry Graham's ability to "groove"...spare me. Yo Mo, it's obvious you havn't tried to mix a song with that lovely "low B from hell" sitting somewhere that will make the average 8" woofer try to jump out of the "gap", crinkle the 'surround' in a "boombox", go entirely 'unheard' on 95% of the 'consumer reproduction systems' [to which pop music must pander], or just plain eat what little headroom is available in even the slickest of 'Bose Car Stereo' systems. Until "Jimmy" gets a set of "18's" for the Camaro...yes, I will find those things a pain in the balls of biblical proportions. ----- Fletcher Mercenary Audio http://www.mercenary.com Fletcher Mercenary Audio Roscoe Ambel once said: Pro-Tools is to audio what fluorescent is to light Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
breakwaybellatlantic.net Posted December 2, 2000 Share Posted December 2, 2000 I have heard SVT rigs that ROCKED--I did sound for one band and we had two cabinets, one on each side of the drums, and it just took your breath away. However, that was with the SVT amp, which was idealized for just those cabinets. I agree with Craig, you must check the phasing of the drivers. Each bank of four tens are wired in series-parallel, then the upper and lower banks are in parallel. It is easy, when replacing drivers in these boxes, to assume that black is minus and white is plus-not the case in series-parallel. Take a 9 volt battery, and "pop" the tip and ground of the speaker cable and observe that all the cones go the same way. Second, you state that the Carvin amp is in the bridged mono mode, then you say "we are only using one channel..." Most pro power amps, when mono, need only the RED binding posts, L and R, to drive the load. What actually happens is the input signal is "chopped" with the positive wave driving the left channel, and the negative side of the wave going to the right channel. This effectively double the voltage "swing" available to drive the load. Check the Carvin manual to see if you are employing the bridged mode properly. Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BP3 Posted December 2, 2000 Share Posted December 2, 2000 Fletcher, I guess you really love those Conklin 7 string basses. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gifhttp://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gifhttp://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fletcher Posted December 2, 2000 Share Posted December 2, 2000 Originally posted by breakway@bellatlantic.net: Take a 9 volt battery, and "pop" the tip and ground of the speaker cable and observe that all the cones go the same way. If you don't feel like taking the back off the cabinet, there is a system from 'Galaxy Audio' that will allow you to plug in "send unit" which will send a "pulse" to the amp, and with a second box, read the polarity of the speakers output with a second. It's mostly used for checking drivers in a sound reinforcement system [i use it to insure proper polarity for microphones in a recording environment], but it can easily be used on something like an SVT cabinet. If you find a driver [or more] wired out of polarity, you can address it then... ----- Fletcher Mercenary Audio http://www.mercenary.com Fletcher Mercenary Audio Roscoe Ambel once said: Pro-Tools is to audio what fluorescent is to light Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ST.Morigeaugte.net Posted December 2, 2000 Share Posted December 2, 2000 Originally posted by Fletcher@mercenary.com: Yeah...lack of that '5th string' really messed with Duck Dunn's or Larry Graham's ability to "groove"...spare me. Yo Mo, it's obvious you havn't tried to mix a song with that lovely "low B from hell" sitting somewhere that will make the average 8" woofer try to jump out of the "gap", crinkle the 'surround' in a "boombox", go entirely 'unheard' on 95% of the 'consumer reproduction systems' [to which pop music must pander], or just plain eat what little headroom is available in even the slickest of 'Bose Car Stereo' systems. Until "Jimmy" gets a set of "18's" for the Camaro...yes, I will find those things a pain in the balls of biblical proportions. Yeah and it's really hampered the likes of Wooten, Bailey and Haslip........ sorry for the sarcasm, but hey!! You'll never get an argument out of me that any Fender 4 being played by a Bassist that controls his attack, his tone from his finger tips, is a sound\tone that is truly hard to beat. But the fives do have merit... PERIOD!! Oh and..... Nice web site..... Really it truly is. It's obvious you a pro and know your stuff. Mo http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/cool.gif [This message has been edited by Mo Thumper (edited 12-04-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nhcomp45aol.com Posted December 4, 2000 Share Posted December 4, 2000 Check the phasing with a flashlight battery. I think that bottom is a 4 ohm load , no good with a bridged amp. Yo Fletchcool out with the attitude.By the way real basses say Gibson Thunderbird. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tedster Posted December 5, 2000 Share Posted December 5, 2000 And if he does ever decide to get an SVT, tell him he gets to unload the damn thing off the truck. I've not figured out exactly what SVT stands for, but I figure the "S" and "V" have something to do with "Surgery" and "Vertebrae"... "Cisco Kid, was a friend of mine" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ST.Morigeaugte.net Posted December 5, 2000 Share Posted December 5, 2000 Tedester ya nailed'r right on the fricken head! The suckers find their balance between positive and negative right there... 'The Weight to Tone Ratio' That's why they been around for thirty somethin years!! Mo Thumper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fletcher Posted December 5, 2000 Share Posted December 5, 2000 Originally posted by Mo Thumper: 'The Weight to Tone Ratio' That's why they been around for thirty somethin years!! Mo-you're actually onto something there. The reason they're so damn heavy is due to the transformers...you need a big power transformer so you can use every bit of electricity the wall has to offer to amplify a wave form that size, and you need a big assed output transformer to build bass properly...which as an added bonus, slows down the high end a little bit...which makes the bass tone larger. As for moving the suckers, I've found that if you build the cabinet and the head into one road case [open removable back as those things get *really* hot!!]...even in a "bar band" situation, you're going to be better off. That way no one person will attempt to lift the damn thing on their own and drop their nuts into their socks... Ever see a guy get a hernia? It's really a remarkable sight...their eyes get wide, then blood shot, then they drop like a stone, then the bottom rail on the B-3 usually catches them in the mid-thigh region [both guys I've seen "go bloodshot were carrying the other side of a B-3 at the time]...which locks the guy into one spot until you can get help...so he's lying there screaming with bloodshot eyes, balls that allegedly feel like a pair of maracas [never had a hernia myself] and a B-3 on his nearly crushed legs...only after you get him squared away do you realize that there is now one fewer guys to load the truck at the end of the night...and he's not coming back to work anytime soon... It's one of life's great irony's. As the gig's get better, you get paid more, and work less. I remember the first time I saw a forklift lifting stuff onto a stage and thinking "damn...where was this idea when I was doing clubs with second floor load-ins?" Originally posted by nhcomp45@aol.com: Check the phasing with a flashlight battery. I think that bottom is a 4 ohm load , no good with a bridged amp. Yo Fletchcool out with the attitude.By the way real basses say Gibson Thunderbird. Yo New Hampshire...learn the language. First off, you're not checking "phasing" you're checking "polarity", there's a difference, learn it. Second, a 'flashlight battery', as in a "D" cell is a bit excessive. You're sending the speaker(s) to 'full excursion' and holding it there [yes, it's only for a second or two...but if you think about it, one second is 1Hz, two seconds is 1/2Hz...not really what the little guys were designed for. If you're going to employ that method...a "AA" or "AAA" will suffice, with less current. They're your speakers, do what you want, I really don't care...but it is a modicum of 'tried and true experience derived advice'. As for the Gibson 'Thunderbird' concept...I'm just *very* glad I don't have to work on the project http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif ----- Fletcher Mercenary Audio http://www.mercenary.com Fletcher Mercenary Audio Roscoe Ambel once said: Pro-Tools is to audio what fluorescent is to light Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tedster Posted December 5, 2000 Share Posted December 5, 2000 ROFLMAO...Never had a hernia (knock on wood). But I have thrown my lower back out a couple of times. There's a similarity in reactions. "Cisco Kid, was a friend of mine" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 6, 2000 Share Posted December 6, 2000 Originally posted by Fletcher@mercenary.com: Mo-you're actually onto something there. The reason they're so damn heavy is due to the transformers...you need a big power transformer so you can use every bit of electricity the wall has to offer to amplify a wave form that size, and you need a big assed output transformer to build bass properly... oops! That reminds me of something.....Last christmas when the kids downstairs plugged in the lights of their christmastree, the light in our rehearsingstudio was kind of dimmed! ....gotta call my electrician-friend..... http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gifhttp://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/rolleyes.gifhttp://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nhcomp45aol.com Posted December 6, 2000 Share Posted December 6, 2000 Yo Fletch, Been using flashlight batterys since the early 60s. Probably before you were born, never hurt a speaker yet. Thunderbird is a very tough bass to record it thinks it is a guitar.First time I played it 1980 I said it sounds like a grand piano. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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