Drum recording

[the stranger]

Alright everybody,

What is your method for getting good drum sounds?

 

Tips for us horrid sounding room guys will be a plus.

 

Ted http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif

 

------------------

destructive workshops

-------------

Want to hear some of my stuff?

[Tedster]

Hahahaha! I'm one to talk. I eagerly anticipate answers to this thread as much as you do.

 

What exactly is the nature of your room problem? Too live? You can always put old blankets and stuff to deaden it. Move stuff out when possible that might have a sympathetic vibration...a lot of other stuff, homemade bass traps, etc...

 

I might say, however, that if you're hosed like me, recording live drums in the same room as your mixer (so you can't listen and tweak like the guys who have the luxury of a separate control room)...use the trial and error method...put the mic here, record a bit, listen analytically, move the mic a bit, record a bit, listen analytically, i.e., experiment...takes longer, but, once you get it, it works...

 

I'll let the more knowledgable (sp?) folks take it from here...

[Guest]

Well, there are a few answers for your question dependant on the style of music you are recording. (BTW dr destructo, I checked out Under The Burning Sun in the listening thread and liked it a lot, I loved the guitars)

 

For something as heavy as your stuff dr destructo, you might do well with a close mic'd kit. Of course the first thing to consider is tuning and the quality of the drums themselves, they need to be tuned professionally to achieve that cool overtone that you like in some of your influences.

 

Here is what I do:

 

I have a TAMA 6 piece kit, two crashes, splash, china, ride.

 

I close mic the toms, about 1 to 2 inches from the head closer to the rim than the middle for a bassier sound. The snare gets mic'd (sm57) about 2 inches from the head at an angle facing the center of the snare. The kick will depend, you need to find the sweet spot (hard to do by yourself, have some patience and don't be afraid to put the mic in the drum). Over heads will depend too. Usually will want to use a matched pair of condensers in a stero pattern. And placememt will depend on your cymbal set-up, move them around til they make you smile.

 

Here is what I do with compression and eq after recording the tracks dry. I track the kick, snare, tom mix, and overhead mix to separate tracks, 6 total.

Kick: compression: 4:1 ratio, medium threshold, high attack

Eq: Boost at 90hz, 2khz, cut at 200hz

 

Snare: same compression

Eq: Boost between 1-8khz,120hz, cut at 700hz

 

Toms: compress to taste, I use nearly same as snare and kick cause I hit real hard.

Eq: to taste, I use a little wide boost of highs and lows.

 

Overheads: I don't compress them, but thats just me, compression tends to bury the room ambience in my opinion, I like to have some of the room in the drum mix.

Eq:sometime the overheads are tracked fine, though a little high end boost around 1-5khz might just brighten them some.

 

Now, remember this stuff ain't etched in stone, experiment a lot with your recording til you come up with that formula that works for you sound and your room.

 

Please, anyone more knowledgeable than me, feel free to correct or interject.

 

-John

[alphajerk]

there is a HUGE database right here on drum micing techniques already. just search for drums [mostly on george massenburgs and ed c's threads]. also be sure to check out fletchers site www.mercenary.com for a great 3 mic technique described in detail.

[the stranger]

John,

Thanks for listening to my stuff!!

 

And that is some great info. I will definitely be putting that info to use.

 

Alpha, will do.

[MusicMan]

It is nice to be able to help http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif

[trick fall]

Had a terrible time trying to get good drum sounds when my band first started recording ourselves. Then my drummer got those Roland V drums. I wasn't crazy about the idea at first, but they sound pretty dam good to me. I think the best part is no vibe killing two hours of messing around with drums. The drummer's now ready before the guitar players are in tune.

[Lee Flier]

Yuck, I hate V-drums. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

 

Dr. Destructo, like Ted says, if you could describe what it is exactly that makes your room sound like doo doo, we might be able to help you better. One of the biggest factors in getting a good drum sound is getting the room to sound decent. This needn't impossible or too expensive even if the sound really sucks now.

 

But if you could tell us the dimensions of the room, and what's on the walls, floor, ceiling (tiles? concrete? carpet?), that would help.

 

--Lee

[Anderton]

Acoustics make all the difference. With good acousics, you can get by with a mic on the kick, one toward the snare/hat, and a stereo pair for overheads (the most important part).

 

I'm one of those "the fewer mics, the better" kind of guys. I think the phasing problems just get too weird past a certain point.

 

Also, you can do a lot with midrange EQ (upper particularly). That can help bring oout the "snap," but like all EQ, you shouldn't need too much to trim things up. IIf you find yourself adding lots of EQ, then there's a problem with the room or miking.

[alphajerk]

those Vdrums are FN great! very nice midi drums. such sensitivity with the stick. i cant believe they are midi drums at all. so responsive. if they just werent so damn expensive. im dying to get the brain, a snare trigger, floor, and kick with those cymbal triggers that actually LOOK like cymbals. then i could put down drum parts LATE night and not even have to replace them the next day!

[Lee Flier]

Trickfall, no need to kill the vibe messing around with the drums. It's a really good idea to have the drummer show up the day BEFORE a session, set up, spend the 2 hours and go home with everything sitting there. Come back the next day ready to go, and drums always seem to sound much better after they've been sitting in the same place for a day or more. If you treat getting drum sounds like it's a big chore and a drag, it makes things tough! Personally I like to get drum sounds and I think it's worth devoting a lot of time, experimenting, having fun. Then start fresh on the actual material the next day.

 

--Lee

[alphajerk]

"It's a really good idea to have the drummer show up the day BEFORE a session, set up, spend the 2 hours and go home with everything sitting there. Come back the next day ready to go, and drums always seem to sound much better after they've been sitting in the same place for a day or more."

 

this is SO true. i never record them any other way. especially with temp changes. a hot day coming into the air conditioned house or a cold day coming into a warm house. i make sure they check the tuning while i am setting up the guitarist up one last time before i hit the red light.

 

plus its so much easier to get drum sounds without having to yell at the guitarist to quit playing for a moment.

[the stranger]

My room is 11' X 13'. I have a window that is

about 3' X 6' about 4' off the floor, and another window standard size.

Plaster walls and ceiling. I also have a closet that was added later, so it sticks out about 2' (it in a corner.

Carpet, medium shag.

I have the drums, 3 guitar amps, a big office desk, a 6' rack that is about 2 1/2' deep, and all sorts of other stuff crammed in there.

It's bad enough, space wise, that my mixing position is in the corner (gasp!).

This room doesn't leave much choice in how I've got everything in there. I've got everything in a somewhat ergonomic arrangement.

The best I can figure is the room is hopeless, unless I go for total dead. Would this rule out a minimalist drum miking setup?

 

My garage is in the beginning stages of conversion, but time and money are the pace setter on the whole project, so it is going to be a year or so on that deal.

[the stranger]

Alpha, I was looking at one of the package deals on the e603's after reading your comments in the George M. forum.

What do you use on the bass drum?

[Lee Flier]

Dude, this sounds like a session I did at a friend of mine's house.

 

The thing to do is build a makeshift drum booth. Get 5 pieces of 4x8 plywood. 3/4" is best. Lay two of them on the floor (you can cut them if the two of them together are too big for the space) and tack a piece of very thin indoor/outdoor carpeting on them, or a gig rug, so the drums don't slide around. Set up the drums on that. Drums on regular padded carpeting sound really shitty.

 

Use your remaining 3 pieces of plywood (again you can cut them down if needed) to surround the drums. You can hold them up with cement blocks. You may only need 2, depending what kind of drum sound you want. If you want to create a more cavernous John Bonham type of sound, lay the plywood pieces so that they extend outward from the kit like a tunnel. Don't make them perfectly parallel of course, angle them in slightly toward each other. Then you can place a room mic at the end of the "tunnel" which should sound really cool.

 

For a tighter sound, surround the drums on 3 sides (2 sides and in front) with the plywood sheets. This will take a lot of the room sound out of play altogether. If the plywood alone is too live sounding, tack some diffusers or absorbers to the sheets. You can also make one side of each sheet live and the other dead (by nailing some insulation and burlap to it) and flip them around and see which sound you like better (usually you don't want them all live or all dead, but some combination).

 

Do NOT use blankets, carpet or mattresses on the walls or the plywood. Those do not really deaden the room, they only kill the high end and make the low end sound extremely nasty.

 

Sometimes in a standard drywall room, all it takes is to get the drums off the carpet and onto a riser or the plywood platform and it will sound worlds better. Setting up in a corner is good if possible so there is a maximum amount of space in front of the kit. If you can't set up in a corner, try placing one of the overhead mics BEHIND the drummer. I do this a lot anyway cuz it tends to sound good and pick up more of the toms. A few absorbers and/or diffusers stuck around on the walls can do a lot of good too. If you use those, just get the Auralex foam squares and use them sparingly. Acoustic foams deaden evenly across all frequencies as opposed to blankets.

 

My approach to miking drums is pretty much like Craig's - I usually use 4 mics (kick, snare, 2 'overheads'), although I usually seem to depart from the accepted overhead placement especially in a less than perfect room. Usually even a crappy sounding room will have a couple of acceptable sounding places to put mics, and your mission is to find them.

 

I think I covered the techniques I use for mic placement in a different thread... if you can't find it, let me know.

 

Good luck! And fire away with more questions if you need to. There's nothing more satisfying than finally getting a killer drum sound down cold. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif

 

--Lee

 

[This message has been edited by Lee Flier (edited 11-29-2000).]

[Uh Clem]

What a great post Lee. Practical tips that anyone can afford and use!

[Guest]

Hey Alpha,

Where on the mercenary site is that 3 mic info you were talkin about. i can't seem to find it on the site.

Thanks

[noizformoney]

Originally posted by wormholeprod@yahoo.com:

 

Where on the mercenary site is that 3 mic info you were talkin about. i can't seem to find it on the site.

Thanks[/b]

 

Police Blotter

[Fletcher]

Quick note to whoever is in charge of the way this site operates...the spell checker blows goats, and the "response field" is too fucking small.

 

I lost a much better version of a response to this post attempting to use a real spell checker [my own damn fault, but the fact remains this response is no where near as good as the first one which was lost].

 

Because I am a registered Republican, I feel the spiritual need to blame my incompetence on others...so I blame the motherfucker who came up with the world's slowest and inefficient 'spell checker' for my losing a pretty decent response [it was a hell of a lot funnier than this one, I was in a *way* better mood]. If I lose this again, then I'm not bothering to try it a 3rd time...if this posts, then it's still not as funny as the original, and I probably missed some of the relevant information of the original.

 

If I could get two things for Christmas it would be a spell checker in this thing that doesn't suck, and the little response box doubled in size...do these people have any idea what a pain in the balls it is to write a short novel in this itty-bitty box from hell? --momentary end of rant mode--

 

Originally posted by dr destructo:

My room is 11' X 13'. I have a window that is about 3' X 6' about 4' off the floor, and another window standard size.Just curious...what's a "standard size window"? Plaster walls and ceiling.

 

Well...you left out one of the 3 most important bits of information about your room, the *height* of the ceiling. I'm going to guess that it's like 8'...but it could be 6', could be 12', could be I have no idea what I'm mumbling about because you left out a third of the 'important' information. The 'size' of any windows that are attached to your room is pretty much irrelevant information...the cubic size of the environment, the shape, the other two dimensions you did give...they're important.

 

More on that later...what's more important than the size of the room, is how the drums sound in the room.

 

How do the drums sound when you're in the room? If they don't sound great there, they won't sound great anywhere. If they do sound great, or appropriate, then you've got a fighting chance.

 

Chances are, you're probably going to need to mess with changing heads, changing tunings, changing drums, changing players(?), change you life, change your shorts, change you into a 9yr. old Hindu boy...oooops...the fact of the matter is all you can do is record the damn drums. Unless you're using the kit to fire samples of other "drum recordings", you can't do alchemy, only recording. So, if your source doesn't rule, then you have nothing to record. Go back to square one.

 

That said, that accomplished, now you can start to stress on how to take that great drum sound out of the air and store it somewhere.

 

OK...let's look at the walls...how far are they from the kit? Is the kit in the middle of the room? What kind of reflection patterns are you going to generate from the way the walls, the drums, and the microphones are all going to interact with each other?

 

Someone said 'dead rooms suck'...well, that's not necessarily true. There are some dead rooms that are amazing...of course the best "dead rooms" I've ever worked in had dimensions like 60'x 45'x 30'...which I dare say is probably slightly larger than the average "dead basement". [bTW, the neat thing about working in a room that large that's dead...you're still moving a ridiculous quantity of air, but with few reflections...things sound very large, but very focused..."you mean like those Zeppelin records made at Olympic?" Yeah...that's exactly what I mean].

 

Now, 'dead basement syndrome'...problem. You're only going to be able to deaden the room to a point...probably around 1kHz, and if you get it 'dead' that low, the room is going to feel pretty claustrophobic...which in my experience isn't conducive to a great performance. A 'great performance' is again the big picture reason for going to all this trouble in the first place...so if you don't get one of those, you're kinda pissing up a rope with all this audio nonsense.

 

OK...so a dead room isn't the greatest idea, how about a live/reflective room? Many people try to use reflections to make the room they're in seem larger. More often than not, all they're doing is smearing the time/reflection patterns which net a lack of distinction and direction to the recorded sound. It can also do some damn neat sounding things...but you need to work at it.

 

Now even I'm confused...I don't like "live", I don't like "dead"...I must only like 'big'...and the brother doesn't have that in his basement...maybe he's just fucked?

Nah...he just has to find the way to get the stuff he's doing in his basement to have a really cool "signature" to the tone, and stop trying to make it sound like someone else's recording...oh.

 

If you weren't out in the parking lot smoking pot and actually attended the high school physics class that covered 'wave theory', then you have some idea that waves can work in an "additive" as well as "subtractive" manner. You also may have learned the word 'lambda' [no, I'm not talking about pot they grow in Jamaica...that's "lamb's breath"...stay focused for a couple of minutes will ya].

 

Lambda is the greek symbol for 'wave length'...don't panic, there will be no math formulas spewed here today, but somehow, keep in mind that every frequency has a different wave length, and depending on the shape/size of the room...some of these "wave lengths" are going to be equal to the size of this room, [or an even fraction thereof] and will "build-up", or "cancel" [alternative words for "additive" and "subtractive" which equals 'comb-filtering'].

 

So...with that 1/2 a gram of science [that's sub 'acoustics 101'...more like 'acoustics 100.01'] in your back pocket...take a look at the room. Realizing that temperature and humidity are beyond our temporary control...figure that sound travels at roughly 1ft/ms.

 

So...if the snare is in the absolute geographic middle of the room...the bounce time from the snare drum to the side walls is going to be about 11ms [twice], and the bounce to the front and back walls is going to be about 13 ms [twice]...unless the snare drum isn't in the dead center of the room, in which case the reflection times and patterns are anybody's guess [psssst, you think he means maybe moving the kit around the room until you find a neat sounding spot is a good idea?...hmmmm, maybe...maybe].

 

Now...another thing you were probably in the parking lot smoking pot when they were discussing it at 'Full Pail' [OK, maybe the didn't discuss it at 'Full Pail', so it didn't matter that you were in the parking lot smoking pot]...the "Haas Effect". That one has several aspects, the one you're interested in is: any reflection that the ear hears in under 19ms isn't treated as a reflection, but as part of the original sound. In other words...the bounce you're going to get off the walls/ceiling is going to combine with the tone of the drums...which going briefly back to the 'lambda thing' means that some of those reflections will combine with the sound of the drum, and some are going to cancel. This is also called 'comb filtering', and it may or may not be a good thing [usually "not" is more prevalent than "will be"...but everyday is different than the day before]. Also, microphones, unlike the brain, don't make any differentiation between original and reflected signals...so you're going to "hear" way more of the reflected sound with a microphone than you will in the room.

 

Chances are; this is going to manifest itself most in the 'lower midrange' areas [a.k.a. "mud frequencies"], which is going to add to the phenonenon known as 'small room boxiness'...again, find a way [*way* easier said than done] to use this to your advantage, find a way to make it part of the 'signature tone' of the room [again, a lot easier said than done...I know, that's why it's a *job*...if recording were easy it wouldn't pay so damn well...oh, you mean you're not getting paid...that's OK, neither am I].

 

OK...reality time, nobody records with a damn slide rule...reality; watch the cymbal reflections off the wall. Perhaps, try making something soft/dead at about cymbal height...and put that on the walls nearest the cymbals. Otherwise you're going to get a really washy ball of shit that glazes the entire drum tone [you may want that...what do I know?].

 

If you move the kit near a corner, you're going to 'reinforce' the bottom you get off the drums...this could be a good thing, might not be...it will also give you a serious "cymbal wash" dilemma...you may be able to use that to your advantage, maybe not. Trying it doesn't cost anything...what the hell?

 

Here's why I was making a big deal over the ceiling height earlier...most ceilings reflect sound. Those reflections usually don't help matters until you get the ceiling height over a dozen feet...I don't know about your basement, my basement ain't got that kind of clearance...which means, I don't use 'overheads'...huh?

 

Nope...I very often use 'underheads' [what the fuck is an 'underhead'?]. That's a mic, or pair of mics that I usually put either over the drummer's right shoulder, or somewhere in front of the kit, or somewhere where they capture a pretty cool tone without the reflections turning everything into a 'boxy/phasey/ball of shit'.

 

Another thought...try moving the drums to other environments, don't get locked into 'one room'. You mentioned the 'garage' you're re-doing...there's no law says you have to wait until it's done before giving it a "go". Living room anyone? Backyard in the summer? Ah, fuck the neighbors...leave some guns lying around, they'll leave you alone [or shoot you first...either way, you'll either find a cool drum tone, or drum tones won't be your most immediate priority].

 

Time for my meds...good luck.

 

-----

 

Fletcher

Mercenary Audio http://www.mercenary.com

[ajcamletearthlink.net]

Originally posted by Fletcher@mercenary.com:

 

Now...another thing you were probably in the parking lot smoking pot when they were discussing it at 'Full Pail' [OK, maybe the didn't discuss it at 'Full Pail', so it didn't matter that you were in the parking lot smoking pot]...

 

That was so funny i spit beer all over my monitor....*Full Pail* hahahahaha i love it

 

ajc

[trick fall]

Lee.....while I appreciate the suggestion and agree with it. It's just not practical for my sitch. Time constraints....small children and wives sleeping overhead....I could go on.

 

For me the V-drums are the best compromise in a bad situation and I bet that a lot of other people are facing simular circumstances.

[Guest]

Why not treat your room acoustically - you can do it easily and cheaply.

 

As lee said carpet and egg cartons just knock out from 2 -3KHz up. All posts have mentioned low-mid problems which is common in all small rooms aka Fletcher's wavelength rave (100hz is 3.3 meters 9' - 10') and you will have room modes around these frequencies.

 

The slot resonator (helmholtz resonator)is the acoustic answer to low mids. A box 4" deep on the wall with insulation inside and front slats alternating 2"x 1", 3"x1" and 4"x1" with gaps of 1/8",1/4" will give a broad band low mid absorber from around 200 - 800 Hz and the timber slats will reflect and diffuse the high end. Slots cut in the doors of your cupboard with a power saw will turn it into a low end absorber. You can put slots on the ceiling and angleing the front broadens the frequency response and breaks up the standing waves in the room.

 

The beauty of this is that it also makes your monitoring better as the room is treated - double wammy. (I don't have a problem with your monitoring being in the corner, it's often the best place and you reduce the side reflections) Most of the foam treatment works down to around 800 hz The better stuff will make it to 500HZ (and pisses off fast below) so the use of slots and foam will bring the whole room reverbtime down evenly. You could also put hangers in the cupboard for low end.

 

The formula for slots can be found at my site at

http://www.lis.net.au/~johnsay/Acoustics/index.htm

 

click on Helmholtz Calculator - you need excel for it to work.

 

You can also work out the reverbtime you currently have by going to:

http://www.lis.net.au/~johnsay/Acoustics/Titles/Acoustics1.htm

and clicking on Reverberation.

 

The calculator will give you the reverb time at different frequencies depending on your wall treatment.

 

"Shape and Size" will give you a room mode calculator so you can work out the modes for each parallel wall surface.

 

Panel absorbers work for frequencies below 200Hz and are the same as the slots except you place a panel of plywood over the 4" box instead of slots. Put on the ceiling with angled fronts helps diffusion and fixes bass as well.

 

Hope this helps

Cheers

John http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif

 

 

[This message has been edited by johnsay@lis.net.au (edited 11-30-2000).]

[Brenton Trott]

Originally posted by Fletcher@mercenary.com:

others...so I blame the motherfucker who came up with the world's slowest and inefficient 'spell checker' for my losing a pretty decent response [it was a hell of a lot funnier than this one, I was in a *way* better mood].

 

 

Boy I would love to have seen the first one, something tells me, you've been out to the carpark once or twice Fletch http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif

 

Brenton

[Anderton]

>> Quick note to whoever is in charge of the way this site operates...the spell checker blows goats <<

 

Wow, no wonder all the goats around here have big smiles on their faces! I was wondering what was going on.

 

>>and the "response field" is too fucking small. <<

 

For long responses, I write them in Notepad or SimpleText, then paste them into the response field. This is "canned" BBS software and is designed to accommodate relatively short messages. Unfortunately, the designers of the software failed to take into account that people posting in my forum would be literate, humorous, erudite, and quite capable of writing learned treatises on all manner of subjects. They're more used to the flame wars found on typical discussion boards, where messages need be no longer than "you suck!" or "no, you suck worse!" For those applications, this BBS software is just fine. Otherwise, I suggest the cut and paste routine.

 

Useful post, by the way...