dansouth Posted November 22, 2000 Share Posted November 22, 2000 I can remember when a DJ was a guy with a couple of turntables and an extensive collection of dance records. He would spin discs at parties, clubs, weddings, etc., and if he did a nice job, everyone danced and had a good time. But DJ's have apparently changed their tune (pun intended). Many DJ's today seem to feel that their improvised beat box performances are more fascinating than a bunch of dumb old CD's. Mechanical grooves can be intriguing for a few minutes, but they get old quickly. Anybody else sick and tired of monotonous, robotic DJ improv? Should these guys be required to take some composition classes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tedster Posted November 22, 2000 Share Posted November 22, 2000 Well, my 2 cents (you're gonna take some direct hits on this)...anything rhythmic is cool, as long as it's going along with something that's substantiated musically. If someone can spin a disc in a rhythmic way, then more power to them. Not for my personal tastes, but for those that like it, whatever floats their boat... "Cisco Kid, was a friend of mine" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trick fall Posted November 23, 2000 Share Posted November 23, 2000 I've heard some amazing dj's, but lately it's been like guitar players in the Seventies, wank city Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Flier Posted November 23, 2000 Share Posted November 23, 2000 LOL! Good way to put it, trickfall... I would agree. I think some DJ's are artful but like anything else, most of it is crap just because most people don't do it very well. Of course most of you know by now that I have a prejudice against beat boxes and don't find them at all danceable, so I can't say too much worthwhile about it. I think it's a cool concept, the idea of DJ's getting creative with rhythms and juxtaposing disparate stuff on top of each other, but in practice it doesn't do much for me. --Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brenton Trott Posted November 23, 2000 Share Posted November 23, 2000 Yeah, it's not my scene. I've also been blown out by a couple, but it just makes think if they had put that much time and practise into the drums or bass etc. They'd be killer. Like I said, it's not my thing. OK flame away........... Brenton Cheers Brenton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 23, 2000 Share Posted November 23, 2000 Personally I would love to play in a group that had a killer D.J., there's just some things they can do that no one else can. Of course I mean with a full band of musicians playing instruments as well. I can just imagine what an awesome D.J. could add to a good bluesy funk band. Imagine SRV meets the Commodores with a d.j. to add just the right amount of Techno. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punchmo Posted November 23, 2000 Share Posted November 23, 2000 I've done 2 rock projects with tracks from a guest dj whose gear took up half of the control room when he was tracked. It was awesome http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif This guy was in constant demand for live performances with bands. (Central PA area). Haven't talked to him for awhile, hope he still has it going on... sp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
batman Posted November 23, 2000 Share Posted November 23, 2000 DJ's, uh, have great merit... OK, traditionally, DJ's were folks who had a love of music...sometimes, a total fascination and obsession... Musicians were/are people who wanted to learn to play an instrument, and express themselves thru' that instrument. It's all down to the method of translating emotion/ideas etc.... The pianoforte may be the ultimate instrument for musical expression (under skilled hands), and a pair of Technics SL1210s may be clumsy in comparison.......... I guess, the bottom line is, a piano/guitar/saxophone/violin etc is a far more expressive real-time instrument than any decks.... So, yes, DJ's have merit, but they should have to pass a banjo/accordion exam first! Tout le best Claude Debussy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curve Dominant Posted November 23, 2000 Share Posted November 23, 2000 DJs are big in Philly - bigger than most if not all of the bands, and definitely more well-known. DJ Cosmo, King Britt, Josh Wink, Kosmic Kat...I could go on & on. Some musicians have a problem with this for obvious reasons. To me, the DJ was always part of the show, and jamming with DJs & vice-versa is part of the fun; it adds dimension. Then you throw in a video projector and some funky lighting effects & yer good ta go. Folks want to party, they don't care what musicians want - but don't try telling that to most musicians. A few DJs like Paul Oakenfold travel around the world & get treated like huge stars, and there's a huge market for mix CDs by these big names and entire record labels, like K7, devoted to DJ mixes. At least 25% of my CD collection is DJ dance mixes, and they're some of my favorite CDs, but I may not represent the norm, especially judging by the way my posts are sometimes responded to here. A lot of musicians I've played with in the past didn't get it either, but that's exactly where they are: in the past. Eric Vincent (ASCAP) www.curvedominant.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anderton Posted November 23, 2000 Share Posted November 23, 2000 There was a thread in here called "Are DJs Musicians?" that covered some of the same ground. But for the record...having seen some world-class DJs at work, I'm impressed as hell with how they can string a set together. I'm less impressed with scratching then with beat-matching, crossfading, on the fly EQ, etc., but even that can be done in a very musical, and sometimes humorous, way. Jamming with DJs is a gas (I jam on guitar). The DJs I've worked with are very open-minded about expanding their options, which opens some doors for me. DJs are an interesting combination of performer, fan, and conductor. I've met few DJs who consider themselves musicians (unless they play an instrument, of course), but some of them are very musical creatures. This may sound dumb, but my basic feeling is that if you haven't been impressed by the "merit" of the DJ, you haven't heard a great one in action. Craig Anderton Educational site: http://www.craiganderton.org Music: http://www.youtube.com/thecraiganderton Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/craig_anderton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curve Dominant Posted November 23, 2000 Share Posted November 23, 2000 The DJs in Jurassic 5 are over-the-f*cking-top, if ya'll ever get a chance ta catch those brothas. Eric Vincent (ASCAP) www.curvedominant.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Ventura Posted November 23, 2000 Share Posted November 23, 2000 First of all, guys: the DJ has three meanings: -A guy working at a radio station, mostly speaking and playing music. (the original meaning) -a guy spinning commercially available records or CD's at a party or a club (evolved meaning). -a guy who works partly with other people's material, partly with his own, re-mixing and re-arranging older productions so that they lose their original qualities and assume those of the new arrangement; those productions can then be played at a club or at a concert hall and thrive upon the fact that their arrangement can be re-worked at any given performance, thus being "openly remixed". This is one of my specializations, too, and over the last 10 years a lot of former DJs have crossed over into musician's territory (not so much in the US as in Europe, Japan and elsewhere, but we know, music-wise the US will always be a little backwards besides hip hop and metal). The best and most innovative records of the last 10 years have been made by DJs. To name a few: Portishead, Massive Attack, Chemical Brothers, RoniSize+Reprazent, most hip hop, Fatboy Slim, Prodigy, Moloko, Morcheeba, and so on. Maybe some of those names won't say much to older American audience who's used to dinosaur guitar-wanking such as Santana, Clapton, country music, blues and the like, but those guys I mentioned sell by the millions. And one more thing: they usually produce a lot of artists you don't even suspect: a DJ produces Madonna, a DJ produces Janet Jackson, DJs produce most new-metal bands, a DJ produce David Bowie, a DJ has produced last Clapton outing, and don't make me go on. And none of those production were that robotic, Dan. Max Italy DJ and producer. AND musician. Max Ventura, Italy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trick fall Posted November 23, 2000 Share Posted November 23, 2000 I just wanted to clarify my earlier post a little. I've been going to clubs for about fifteen years and have heard dj's like Junior Vazquez, Danny Tenaglia and bunch more many times. Many times these dj's have taken me to a higher place, same as a good band. However, it's been about three years at least since I've heard a good dj in action. I wont even go to a dance club any more cause it's more about dj worship than dancing. I was at one club in Amsterdam a few months ago, big name english dj spinning.....and people were trying to dance, but every 10 seconds there was a huge breakdown so all people could do was stand there and worship this guy. Pathetic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alphajerk Posted November 24, 2000 Share Posted November 24, 2000 "I'm less impressed with scratching then with beat-matching, crossfading, on the fly EQ, etc" im the EXACT opposite. i hate the mixers and love the scratchers. mixing is SO boring. scratching is amazing, just keeping the needle on the vinyl. alphajerk FATcompilation "if god is truly just, i tremble for the fate of my country" -thomas jefferson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curve Dominant Posted November 24, 2000 Share Posted November 24, 2000 ALL THIS SCRATCHIN'S MAKIN' ME ITCH!! ...put the needle on the rekkud... Eric Vincent (ASCAP) www.curvedominant.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 24, 2000 Share Posted November 24, 2000 Originally posted by argomax: Maybe some of those names won't say much to older American audience who's used to dinosaur guitar-wanking such as Santana, Clapton, country music, blues and the like, but those guys I mentioned sell by the millions. Max Italy DJ and producer. AND musician. Yeah, they do sell by the millions so I certainly wouldn't classify them as " Dinosaur guitar wanking" artists, how about a little respect for some of the best loved musicians and musical genres in the biz. And no, I'm not a dinosaur that can't appreciate music outside of the guitar scope. I happen to love the things DJ's are doing these days, would love a chance to jam with one, and more power to them. Classical music has been around for hundreds of years so I suppose that makes a classical guitarist a dinosaur guitar wanker. Tribal rythmic percussion has been around for thousands so I suppose that makes any tribal artist a dinosaur percussion wanker. I don't think so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alphajerk Posted November 24, 2000 Share Posted November 24, 2000 i second stratomatic. ive listened to ALL those artists listed and none of them are ALL that. portishead is probably my favorite on that list but the recording quality of it sucks. prodigy are just dumasses, fatboy slim cant get past his one trick [every song sounds the same], most hip hop sucks [but there are some incredible artists in that genre, i wouldnt say most though], ronisize is okay, morcheeba should be called morcheeblah... boring as hell, actually i take that back, i havent heard of moloko. BUT to "name a few" i do like aphex twin, dj shadow, hawke, ANY bill laswell [now HE IS innovative, brilliant even, ooh but he is a bassist], eno is innovative [damn, another musician], and so on. there is a big difference listening to heckno and dem blues, one requires a methamphetamine and the other requires a bad day and a bottle of jack. and my mmods change too much to listen to ANY one thing. alphajerk FATcompilation "if god is truly just, i tremble for the fate of my country" -thomas jefferson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Ventura Posted November 24, 2000 Share Posted November 24, 2000 Lemme rectify: the dinosaur guitar-wanking I intended was aimed at the various Santana types, Clapton and such, people who said what they had to say 30 years ago but still stick around trying to squeeze every possible penny from the middle-aged fellas that don't really listen to music, they just buy a Cd here and there once in a while or have to buy a gift. I mean do you relly believe anybody really into music is gonna actually buy a new Genesis album? Or a Steely Dan sleepthru? They might be respected and capable and blah blah, but music is not a badge of honour, you haven't done Vietnam just because 30 years ago you had a couple of hit albums; you got to conquer an audience with every single outing; otherwise you have no reason to stick around. Pink Floyd did great albums until 1981; what am I gonna do with their successive albums if I don't like them and everybody left & right says they're crap? Buy them just to support Pink Floyd sunset boulevard years? Opinion-wise, some might say "Hey, I like new Clapton stuff, new Santana stuff, new Steve Vai stuff", but the majority will give the final verdict, and we already know that. Plus, guitar music is ONE of the possibilities you have for making music; not the best one, and not even the most important. Before 1910, guitar players didn't even exist; classically trained, "real" musicians (such accordion players, for instance) scorned at them; now, it's guitarist's turn to scorn at new types of musicians such as DJs, for not being "classically trained". Well, where are accordion players these days? 'Fraid guitarists'll join them pretty soon in the next century. And mind you, I play guitar pretty well. This is not intended as a scorn against guitarists: just want to make you understand that progress brings change, and changes have to be accepted, and certain things have to pass and be forgotten in the folds of time. Max Max Ventura, Italy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
batman Posted November 25, 2000 Share Posted November 25, 2000 "ANY bill laswell [now HE IS innovative," Yes Alpha I second that! Bill Laswell has played on/produced/re-mixed some great stuff...The Miles Davis stuff (Parthalasa?), Manu DiBango's "Electric Africa"...to name but two of my favorites..... But...that ain't exactly..Dee Jayin... We're talkin' about real-time, intuitive, on-the-fly style here... When it comes to the technology of making music, it's all down to the interface between the musician and the instrument. that interface is the most sublime with the human voice, because it's "hard-wired". The problem here is, it's tricky to get a new set of vocal chords, or a new thorax, if yours don't cut the mustard.... Everything else, whether it's a coupla rocks, a Steinway, or a pair of 1210s, is.... technology. Only two things matter.... 1) Can you make your music to your own satisfaction using your chosen technology? 2) Do pepole get off on it? Whatever...turns...you...on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anderton Posted November 25, 2000 Share Posted November 25, 2000 "Dinosaur wanking guitarists?" I don't have a problem with Clapton, Santana, et al. I will readily admit I don't get the same musical rush as when I first heard them; "Bluesbreakers" was a milestone for me (until I found out about Freedie King, but that's another story). As to Santana, I prefer his newer material to his older stuff. The older music had energy, but lacked focus. You might think the newer music has too much focus, but I see it more as an expression of a certain level of maturity in his playing. I'm not really a big fan of Santana's overall music, but I think he's a highly expressive guitarist, and has improved with time. It's always a treat when one of his solos rises above the mud on the radio. Everyone here knows how much I enjoy techno, DJs, groove-type music, etc. But some of the older rockers have found new avenues (Mark Knopfler's movie work, for example) that helps keep their work fresh. Laswell is an excellent example of the kind of mindset that is always absorbing new influences. That, I think, is what keeps any music vital: not being ingrown. Craig Anderton Educational site: http://www.craiganderton.org Music: http://www.youtube.com/thecraiganderton Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/craig_anderton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alphajerk Posted November 25, 2000 Share Posted November 25, 2000 the problem i have with clapton, santana, et al is they are doing NOTHING NEW! santana was unbelievable pre-70 [lack of focus? you had to have TOTAL focus to hang with that shit], now its just watered down liquor [dont know her]. and clapton, come on... play something worth my time and not the same BS you have been playing for years, expand your horizons for all of us. i have heard interviews about him sitting and jamming to a drum machine that was unbelievable to the engineer sitting there, why didnt you release that? look at RL Burnside's 'Come on in'. his grandson plays drums for him, an old muthafunkin black dude wanking on the guitar with tom rothrock producing it. its fuckin amazing. its still dem blues but its totally fresh. alphajerk FATcompilation "if god is truly just, i tremble for the fate of my country" -thomas jefferson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 25, 2000 Share Posted November 25, 2000 Originally posted by alphajerk: look at RL Burnside's 'Come on in'. his grandson plays drums for him, an old muthafunkin black dude wanking on the guitar with tom rothrock producing it. its fuckin amazing. its still dem blues but its totally fresh. I'm with ya there Alpha, RL is bad, one of the main reasons I would love to get with a D.J. Nothin like that has been heard where I live and I think it would go over GREAT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnBartus Posted November 26, 2000 Share Posted November 26, 2000 Originally posted by argomax: the dinosaur guitar-wanking I intended was aimed at the various Santana types, Clapton and such, people who said what they had to say 30 years ago but still stick around trying to squeeze every possible penny from the middle-aged fellas that don't really listen to music, they just buy a Cd here and there once in a while or have to buy a gift. I mean do you relly believe anybody really into music is gonna actually buy a new Genesis album? Or a Steely Dan sleepthru? They might be respected and capable and blah blah, but music is not a badge of honour, you haven't done Vietnam just because 30 years ago you had a couple of hit albums; you got to conquer an audience with every single outing; otherwise you have no reason to stick around. Pink Floyd did great albums until 1981; what am I gonna do with their successive albums if I don't like them and everybody left & right says they're crap? Buy them just to support Pink Floyd sunset boulevard years? Opinion-wise, some might say "Hey, I like new Clapton stuff, new Santana stuff, new Steve Vai stuff", but the majority will give the final verdict, and we already know that. -------------------------- Good God, what a load of pure unadulterated bullshit! Normally, I don't react this way to posts I don't necessarily agree with. This time, however, I can't sit idly back while someone posits that if you're over 35 or 40 or 50 then your music is automatically invalid. Santana's Supernatural is an incredibly creative and highly musical work. Steely Dan's latest album is head and shoulders above most of the dreck out there. There are many more examples of how "dinosaurs" still make interesting and valid music even though they may happen to be a little older than argomax. It's a matter of personal taste, not right or wrong. Some prefer the incessant beat and the creative work that DJs perform to excite club audiences and dancers, while others may enjoy a simple acoustic guitar and voice. There are many levels in between -- but to suggest that these "dinosaurs" don't have anything to say because they're older reeks of tunnel vision at best, and sheer age discrimination at its worst. Here's a question I'll ask: does anybody think we'll have "Classic Rap" or "Classic Techno" or "Classic Dance" radio formats in the future? Will this music stand the test of time, or is it simply music for the moment, not destined to be anything but the flavor of the month? ------------------ John Bartus Radio Active Productions We Make Great Radio Happen - Guaranteed. 1-888-93-RADIO www.radioactivedigital.com John Bartus Music From The Fabulous Florida Keys www.johnbartus.com www.cdbaby.com/bartus www.radioactivedigital.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Ventura Posted November 26, 2000 Share Posted November 26, 2000 John , I am 35, and grew up with '60 and '70 rock & folk & country. But that was then, now is now. The last line of my previous post is the main point I want to make. Max Max Ventura, Italy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anderton Posted November 26, 2000 Share Posted November 26, 2000 Well, thinking that someone's creativity has to diminish with age is ridiculous. This has never been an issue in, say, literature, art, chess tournaments, etc. I'm older than I was 25 years ago, and my music is better. I'm also a better cook, driver, and finder of deductible items come tax time. Simple. Now, there is one issue worth considering, and that's whether someone who has been in the business a long time may or may not be burnt out, yet responds to pressures from fans and record labels to come out with new "product." Or maybe they're overextended financially, so they go on tour one more time. I'm not saying it can't happen that an artist gets stale; but it doesn't HAVE to happen. Frankly, it seems Eric Clapton has other interests he wants to pursue, of a charitable nature. More power to him. Who are we to demand that he stay on the musical cutting edge? It's his life. For some people, one CD of his music wouldn't be enough; they're happy to get more in the same genre. That's fine. It's a free country (well, mostly, or at least it was the last time I looked). I admit that I don't listen to a lot of the music from artists who were big in the 60s and 70s. I think it's okay for my tastes to change, too. But you can bet if Miles Davis was still alive, I'd be eagerly anticipating his next release. That was a guy who never stopped growing. Age had nothing to with it: he was great at one thing when he was younger, and was great at something else as he grew older. >>Here's a question I'll ask: does anybody think we'll have "Classic Rap" or "Classic Techno" or "Classic Dance" radio formats in the future? Will this music stand the test of time, or is it simply music for the moment, not destined to be anything but the flavor of the month?<< I think there already are some classic tracks...Moby's "Go," LA Style's "James Brown is Dead," Public Enemy's "Don't Believe the Hype," some Run-DMC...maybe not enough for an oldies station when a bunch of today's 20-year-olds kick back at age 50 with a beer, and wonder what were they thinking when they got that tattoo...but enough for Rhino to put out a pretty decent compilation . And besides, has anyone noticed how many dance guys are falling into cliches? The 32nd-note snare drum build-ups, the "too-close-to-new-age-for-comfort" "trance" chord progressions that sound like watered-down Tangerine Dream, the lyrical mindlessness, etc.? You don't have to be old to be uninventive. Craig Anderton Educational site: http://www.craiganderton.org Music: http://www.youtube.com/thecraiganderton Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/craig_anderton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnBartus Posted November 27, 2000 Share Posted November 27, 2000 Originally posted by argomax: This is not intended as a scorn against guitarists: just want to make you understand that progress brings change, and changes have to be accepted, and certain things have to pass and be forgotten in the folds of time. ------------ I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you there. People have been trying to write off the electric guitar since they thought rock and roll was just a fad back in the 50's (sort of how they thought rap was just a fad some 30 years later). The electric guitar as an instrument in its own right is here to stay (in many genres), and the reports of its demise are greatly exaggerated. I also have to disagree with your assertion that "...certain things have to pass and be forgotten in the folds of time." Great music is timeless, whether it's a Beethoven symphony, Robert Johnson's blues, Abbey Road, or Aja. By the way, changes don't have to be accepted -- just look at how the USA treated adoption of the metric system! It makes infinitely more sense, but Americans are simply more comfortable with pounds, gallons, and miles. ------------------ John Bartus Radio Active Productions We Make Great Radio Happen - Guaranteed. 1-888-93-RADIO www.radioactivedigital.com John Bartus Music From The Fabulous Florida Keys www.johnbartus.com www.cdbaby.com/bartus www.radioactivedigital.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anderton Posted November 27, 2000 Share Posted November 27, 2000 >>certain things have to pass and be forgotten in the folds of time.<< Not too long ago, many people would have included Minimoogs, TR-808s, TR-909s, and TB-303s as things that "needed to be forgotten in the folds of time." I bought a beautiful Minimoog for cheap back in the mid-80s...there was no market for them. I told the person I was buying it from that the Minimoog was going to be the archtop Les Paul of the 1990s. He thought I was insane. Sometimes it's the old, discarded ideas that resonate. I'm convinced the only reason I have a semi-career in Europe doing dance music is because I play guitar. For some of the audience, it's a novelty! Granted, I don't play it like traditional guitar, but I guess that just goes to show how incredibly versatile a guitar can be. Not bad for 6 monophonic oscillators, with 5 program changes... Craig Anderton Educational site: http://www.craiganderton.org Music: http://www.youtube.com/thecraiganderton Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/craig_anderton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
batman Posted November 29, 2000 Share Posted November 29, 2000 "I don't play it like traditional guitar, but I guess that just goes to show how incredibly versatile a guitar can be. Not bad for 6 monophonic oscillators, with 5 program changes"..... Amen, Craig... The electric guitar is capable of an astonishing range of timbres, and instant emotional communication (steady on, Ade.you're getting a little "pseuds corner" here...). This is probably why guitar synths have never really taken off... By the way, I only saw Freedy (we called him "Freddy") King once, at the Marquee, London in 1969....I thought the stage was goin' to collapse, and he'd squash that weedy lookin' ES335 between his huge hands...the sound and performance was...awesome!!... I remember bunking-off school in 1965, and seeing "Slow-hand" playing with John Mayall's Bluesbreakers at the "Twisted Wheel" in Manchester...my life changed!!... Er...what was the thread!!....oh yes....Duke Ellington, Edgard Varese, and just about everybody else were going strong until the day they quit the planet....but ...that's music... ain't it great!!..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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