the stranger Posted November 19, 2000 Share Posted November 19, 2000 Batteries or power supply? If batteries... Do you have an Eric Johnson preference? I prefer alkaline. Duracell. My two dod digital delays are serious batt killers, though. I have an analog one that is not bad at all, but those digital ones are thristy little bastards. ---------------------- What about series vs. parallel? Anybody use any kind of a switching rig? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tedster Posted November 19, 2000 Share Posted November 19, 2000 Maybe I'm just uninformed, but I'd definitely be a power supply guy if it weren't for wall warts. What am I missing? "Cisco Kid, was a friend of mine" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the stranger Posted November 19, 2000 Author Share Posted November 19, 2000 Supposedly, there are tonal differences between types of batteries, power supplies, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ST.Morigeaugte.net Posted November 19, 2000 Share Posted November 19, 2000 i gotta admit......... I tried it.. switch'n batteries. The new titanium hoobajoos and whatnots. Don't got the ears of Eric I guess. Suckers still get chewed up pretty quick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent_powellpalmercay.com Posted November 20, 2000 Share Posted November 20, 2000 For recording, it's gotta be batteries. Much quieter. For live, I duct tape those wall warts to the power strip. It's a trade off either way. Live, I can deal with a bit more noise and don't want to risk a dead battery in mid-song followed by the delay of changing it during a set. We take long enough between songs as it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 21, 2000 Share Posted November 21, 2000 I like batteries since you can test the battery with a meter to check it's level and decide where to put it from there. i like near dead batteries in my delay since the echoes become more grungy as they fade out. This is a "sometimes" kinda thing since you don't always want that. What's fun though is to keep a record of what a device sounds like with the battery level beside so the effect is somewhat reproducible. Distortion sounds different as the battery fades also. I don't reakky notice a big difference in battery brands but I'm sure if you were to measure it there would be one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bob Posted November 21, 2000 Share Posted November 21, 2000 Try the vintage (non-Alkaline) batteries. Alkaline may have a longer life but they have a steep crap-out curve. The vintage Danelectro's for example will get into that about to crap-out stage and stay there awhile. This gives a fuzz a more chaotic sound. Hendrix discovered this. Sir Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curve Dominant Posted November 21, 2000 Share Posted November 21, 2000 At a certain point I began using batteries (Duracell Alkaline) over A/C adapters for the sole purpose of cutting down on set-up & break-down time. It shaves seconds off in those tight-turn venues when I'm sandwiched between bands. It also eliminantes the possibility that one of those adapters gets ripped out with all my spastic seizure-like stagecraft, against which duct tape is no match. My Digitech 2-second delay pedal guzzles batteries - I switch it for each performance. Otherwise no problems visible to the naked ear. Eric Vincent (ASCAP) www.curvedominant.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faeflora Posted November 21, 2000 Share Posted November 21, 2000 Originally posted by Curve Dominant: It also eliminantes the possibility that one of those adapters gets ripped out with all my spastic seizure-like stagecraft, against which duct tape is no match. LOL http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif still giggling http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif Visually entertaining performances are the only type! If you live in the Washington Metro area, check out Slave Audio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curve Dominant Posted November 21, 2000 Share Posted November 21, 2000 Faeflora: When I was a tiny little pup, I read somewhere that Jimi Hendrix didn't step on pedals, he LANDED on them. I took that as a challenge. Eric Vincent (ASCAP) www.curvedominant.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonemonkeyyahoo.com Posted November 21, 2000 Share Posted November 21, 2000 Maybe Craig will contribute to this thread. I used to think the whole EJ "I can hear the difference between kinds of batteries" was mystical BS of the highest order. I believed that until Brian Gerhard of Top Hat amplifiers began sharing his philosophy of filtering power supplies in tube guitar amps. To make a long story short, Brian feels that most modern amps (especially high-gain channel switching amps like Boogies) are drastically over-filtered, resulting in a highly stiff sterile sound (hey, some guys like that - more power to ya). Most EE types will tell you that filtering shouldn't matter and that, if anything, more should always be better. I no longer believe that - my ears tell me differently. Anyway, that got me thinking about batteries in effects. If you think about it, batteries go right across the power rails just the way filter caps do in a tube amp. It therefore seems reasonable to me that there would be *some* amount of capacitance/impedance difference between various battery types. It's hard to measure this but I bet it's there. Now personally, I can't tell the difference (and I'm pretty critical). I've been using a VooDoo Labs pedal power for years (ever since a Wallwart failed me at the Roxy - Murphy's Law). I totally dig it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Flier Posted November 21, 2000 Share Posted November 21, 2000 Well, bout the only effects I use are an Ernie Ball stereo volume/pan pedal (doesn't use power) and a vintage Echoplex (AC power, no wall wart). So I don't worry bout no stinkin batteries. Well, OK, I recently started using a Dan Electro compressor pedal for the Rickenbacker 12 string... but it's not something I use all the time so I don't mind changin batteries. --Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tedster Posted November 21, 2000 Share Posted November 21, 2000 >>I used to think the whole EJ "I can hear the difference between kinds of batteries" was mystical BS of the highest order. This is what I was kinda getting at in the "gear snob" thread. Taste, fact, or snobbery? There are tons of other variables involved, y'know...like "Did someone put another post-it-note on the wall, thereby subtly changing the acoustic response characteristics of the room?"... Some things are measurable, some are subliminal... You see these optical illusions, two circles side by side, one with a long line next to it and one with a short line...which circle is bigger? They're the same size, but your eyes have been tricked into thinking that they're not. Well, if eyes can be tricked, so can ears. "Cisco Kid, was a friend of mine" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anderton Posted November 21, 2000 Share Posted November 21, 2000 >>Anyway, that got me thinking about batteries in effects. If you think about it, batteries go right across the power rails just the way filter caps do in a tube amp. It therefore seems reasonable to me that there would be *some* amount of capacitance/impedance difference between various battery types. It's hard to measure this but I bet it's there.<< You're on the right track. The Eric Johnson comment got a lot of laughs from engineers, but a lot of older stomp boxes had terrible power supply rejection. Therefore, the internal impedance of the battery would make a difference in how much signal got from one part of a circuit to another via the supply lines. Alkaline and zinc-carbon batteries have very different impedances, and I can see where that would make a difference. Craig Anderton Educational site: http://www.craiganderton.org Music: http://www.youtube.com/thecraiganderton Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/craig_anderton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anderton Posted November 21, 2000 Share Posted November 21, 2000 >>I believed that until Brian Gerhard of Top Hat amplifiers began sharing his philosophy of filtering power supplies in tube guitar amps. To make a long story short, Brian feels that most modern amps (especially high-gain channel switching amps like Boogies) are drastically over-filtered, resulting in a highly stiff sterile sound (hey, some guys like that - more power to ya). Most EE types will tell you that filtering shouldn't matter and that, if anything, more should always be better. I no longer believe that - my ears tell me differently.<< I believe the issue isn't with filtering - that's the part that gets rid of hum, and you can't have too much of that. But there is an issue with power supply regulation. In brief, with a highly regulated power supply, as you draw more current from it, the supply voltage remains constant. With a loosely-regulated power supply, drawing more current causes the supply voltage to drop. This was a "feature" of older amps because as you pushed it harder, the voltage would lower, and you'd end up with more distortion. And that's your trivia for the day! Craig Anderton Educational site: http://www.craiganderton.org Music: http://www.youtube.com/thecraiganderton Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/craig_anderton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tedster Posted November 21, 2000 Share Posted November 21, 2000 Is that gonna be on the final, Professor Anderton??? http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif "Cisco Kid, was a friend of mine" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
offramp Posted November 21, 2000 Share Posted November 21, 2000 I'd bet on it. For study, find a copy of his Projects for Musicians book; I seem to remember there was a nice power supply design in there for multiple pedals, which after all these years, I've yet to build.... Prfssr? Do I remember right? I've upped my standards; now, up yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonemonkeyyahoo.com Posted November 21, 2000 Share Posted November 21, 2000 You guys are the coolest. Where else could one have an intelligent dialog about stuff like this? BTW, Tedster... the hi-fi guys make all us music gear snobs look like wimps. For example, there was supposedly a particular brand of (I kid you not) WALL CLOCK that one could plug into the same wall outlet as his stereo power amp to get better imaging!!!! These guys are, as Ken Kesey would say, "bull-goose loony! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tedster Posted November 22, 2000 Share Posted November 22, 2000 Yep, I hear ya. Tone...it gets pretty bad in all fields... Like I said, "Whoever put the new post-it-note on the wall has subtly changed the acoustic ambience in here and I'm gonna have to rearrange the whole mix..." Yeah, I can tell when the batteries in my acoustic are going Tango Uniform 'cause it gets distorted and noisy. I loved an interview I read with B.B. King. He was getting ready to record something, and the studio guys were racing all around saying "Well, we've got a Twin, a Super Reverb, (named off about three more, but didn't have his usual Lab Series)". Mr. King said, "Oh, just plug me into an amp". That may be a bit drastic...everyone has their favorite rig, I can dig that. "Cisco Kid, was a friend of mine" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 22, 2000 Share Posted November 22, 2000 Batteries mainly.... just for lack of sockets to plug things into. I like the green Radio Shack batteries (non-alkaline), although the Walgreens non-alkalines work pretty well. I read (and checked) that alkalines have a different voltage than the non-alkalines do - the nons seem to run a bit higher voltage. I especially dig the way an old EH Electric Mistress sounds just before the batteries go flat - even weirder than usual, which is saying something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anderton Posted November 22, 2000 Share Posted November 22, 2000 >>I seem to remember there was a nice power supply design in there for multiple pedals, which after all these years, I've yet to build.... Prfssr? Do I remember right?<< Yup, it's in there. Both of mine still work... Craig Anderton Educational site: http://www.craiganderton.org Music: http://www.youtube.com/thecraiganderton Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/craig_anderton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curve Dominant Posted November 22, 2000 Share Posted November 22, 2000 I'm gonna start checking trash dumpsters for discarded non-alkaline batteries... Eric Vincent (ASCAP) www.curvedominant.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonemonkeyyahoo.com Posted November 22, 2000 Share Posted November 22, 2000 Craig- Hope ya don't mind a little hair splittin' 'round here... Regarding your analysis of tube amp power supply characteristics... I concede that you're "technically correct" that most of these stiff amps are over-regulated, not over-filtered. Indeed, I appreciate the enlightenment. However, as a practical matter power supply caps provide both filtering *and* regulation in a simple tube amp circuit. In fact, as I understand things, it's pretty hard to separate the two characteristics. A tube or ss recto provides coarsely rectified AC to a bank of caps. The placement and values of those caps must filter out the remaining AC *and* provide a current reservoir for the output section. As I'm sure you know, when the first high-gain amplifiers hit the scene in the 70s, they started with vintage designs (Fender circuits mostly) but quickly found that the sound would "fart out" as it was driven to higher and higher saturation levels. So yeah, the typical remedy was to increase the regulation by adding "filter caps" to the power section. That's probably why most of us "tube heads" tend to speak of "lightly filtered" power sections when we would be more correct to say "lightly regulated" power sections. BTW, a note to you guys about Craig's pedal power supply. I built that project in the early '80s. It worked VERY well. It was a godsend in it's day. However, with units like the VooDoo Labs Pedal Power out there now (which features isolated toroidal taps for each DC supply), I probably wouldn't build it again except for personal edification. I don't mean this to be a knock on Craig. There's just more better stuff now than there was back then. You should be able to buy a new Pedal Power for $125 street if you look carefully. They are well worth it. [This message has been edited by tonemonkey@yahoo.com (edited 11-22-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the stranger Posted November 22, 2000 Author Share Posted November 22, 2000 Question... Will the Voodoo Labs pedal power thing power my digital pedals without damaging them? I've noticed that the digital ones always call for a different power supply than the analog ones. Second... CRAIG!!! When are you going to do another project book, since it was mentioned? ------------------ destructive workshops Want to hear some of my stuff? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonemonkeyyahoo.com Posted November 22, 2000 Share Posted November 22, 2000 Dr- The Pedal Power features two possible settings for *each* power tap - one higher voltage for the older analog Boss pedals and a lower voltage for the more modern pedals. There's 8 dip switches on the bottom (wish they were on top). I freely mix and match pedals and it works fine. Also, because the taps are fully isolated, you can wire a reverse polarity interface cable and power Germanium effects (e.g., Fuzzface) with it as well. My only beef is that you get 8 taps but only six of the Boss style interface cables. For what Voodoo Labs sells these things for ($190 list I think), they should be lavish with the interface cables. One minor niggle - it's not short circuit protected either. One guy selling a competing product (a custom pedalboard maker) swears that he's had to replace several Pedal Power units with his own units because they've fried. Personally, I'm skeptical. I've had zero problems with mine. Josh Feiden (owner of Voodoo Labs/Digital Music Corp) is a very cool guy. I bet he'd post here if he knew about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anderton Posted November 23, 2000 Share Posted November 23, 2000 >>However, as a practical matter power supply caps provide both filtering *and* regulation in a simple tube amp circuit. In fact, as I understand things, it's pretty hard to separate the two characteristics. A tube or ss recto provides coarsely rectified AC to a bank of caps. << That is correct and well worth mentioning. However, caps aren't the only element involved in regulation. I think the voltage coming from the power transformer starts to droop under heavy loading as well, and that's part of the sound. So even if the caps get rid of all the hum, if there's enough current draining them, then the transformer becomes an issue. There's also voltage drops through the rectifier diodes in solid state power supplies, but I don't know if that's a significant factor -- never measured it. Have you heard anything about this? Craig Anderton Educational site: http://www.craiganderton.org Music: http://www.youtube.com/thecraiganderton Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/craig_anderton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anderton Posted November 23, 2000 Share Posted November 23, 2000 >>BTW, a note to you guys about Craig's pedal power supply...it was a godsend in its day. However, with units like the VooDoo Labs Pedal Power out there now (which features isolated toroidal taps for each DC supply), I probably wouldn't build it again except for personal edification. I don't mean this to be a knock on Craig. There's just more better stuff now than there was back then. << Also remember that power supply was really intended to power the projects in the book, which all had fairly uniform power requirements. In that context, it still makes sense, but not any more as a general purpose box for powering a variety of effects. Which lets me answer the question about coming up with another projects book...it has really gotten to the point these days where it's more expensive to build something than buy it. For example, if you wanted to build something like a Line 6 POD, forget it - unless you could buy the chip and circuit board, and do some basic construction of the case. So much gear relies on custom ICs or software that turning it into a do it yourself project is a Major Deal. Take the Voodoo Labs power supply -- it works, it's UL-approved, it's made by cool people...you couldn't build it for what they sell it for, so the only reason to do so is, well, personal edification. Back in the days of my first projects book, the ONLY way to get that kind of gear was to build it yourself. That is no longer the case. When I did a projects book with two other authors on building a single-board MIDI computer, it flopped. That also kind of scared me away from getting into the DIY digital world. BTW I did do a book a couple years back called "Do It Yourself Projects for Guitarists" for Miller-Freeman Books, and it's still available. It's different from Electronic Projects for Musicians as it's more a collection of schematics culled from my years of writing for Miller-Freeman mags, but I think there's some good stuff in there. Craig Anderton Educational site: http://www.craiganderton.org Music: http://www.youtube.com/thecraiganderton Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/craig_anderton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonemonkeyyahoo.com Posted November 23, 2000 Share Posted November 23, 2000 >>There's also voltage drops through the rectifier diodes in solid state power supplies, but I don't know if that's a significant factor -- never measured it. Have you heard anything about this?<< Haven't measured it but I do know that there's actually higher drops, resulting in lower plate voltages, when you use a tube recto. For example, if you were to simply substitute a plug-in SS recto for say a GZ34, you would definitely see higher plate voltages with the SS recto. Higher enough that you would have to rebias a class A/B amp (like a blackface Fender) to operate safely (i.e., not fry the output tubes). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anderton Posted November 24, 2000 Share Posted November 24, 2000 >>For example, if you were to simply substitute a plug-in SS recto for say a GZ34, you would definitely see higher plate voltages with the SS recto. Higher enough that you would have to rebias a class A/B amp (like a blackface Fender) to operate safely (i.e., not fry the output tubes).<< Very interesting. So the rectifier "crashing" under load could be a big part of the tube sound...any comments? Craig Anderton Educational site: http://www.craiganderton.org Music: http://www.youtube.com/thecraiganderton Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/craig_anderton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonemonkeyyahoo.com Posted November 24, 2000 Share Posted November 24, 2000 >>So the rectifier "crashing" under load could be a big part of the tube sound...any comments?<< I could get out of my depth here pretty quickly, but I'll try to share what little I know. Tube rectos have varying degrees of internal resistance. The more current you pull thru the recto, the more dynamic and pronounced these internal IR drops become. This creates the coveted (by some) "sag effect." You know, you crank the amp, hit a note and it sags a bit then "blooms." Now personally, when I can hear a difference, I kind of like the structure that SS rectos provide. Interesting aside: I own a Top Hat Club Royale. It's an 18 watt dual push/pull EL84 class A guitar amp. It's a few years old and originally came with a tube GZ34 recto. Brian Gerhard (owner/designer of Top Hat) recently decided to change all the new Club Royales over to SS rectos for a few reasons. #1) You aren't pulling enough current thru a GZ34 in an 18 watt amp to create any appreciable sag. He told me, "I'd put six tube rectos in my amps if I felt that sounded better." #2) SS rectos are cheaper and more reliable. Currently, only Chinese GZ34s are available as new production tubes. New Old Stock (NOS) GZ34s are extremely pricey. #3) Chinese GZ34s are poorly made and prone to mechanical rattle and high infant motality rates; SS rectos are not. Anyway, you should hear the howls of protests from the tube purists when he made that change . Guys are now actively searching out the older models with "a tube recto." Me... I just switched over to a plug-in SS recto. I notice very little difference if any (I do notice the absence of physical rattles though). So I guess the executive summary is, "yes it (tube vs. SS rectification) can matter, sort of, sometimes, but it's not always (but could be) desirable (or not)." [This message has been edited by tonemonkey@yahoo.com (edited 11-24-2000).] [This message has been edited by tonemonkey@yahoo.com (edited 11-25-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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