Anderton Posted November 15, 2000 Share Posted November 15, 2000 This wasn't my idea for a topic. Here's the post from Tedster that kicked it off: >>Just wondering, do those in the successful echelons of the biz ever get frustrated with its commercial aspects? For example, I read an interview with the Wallflowers' guitarist and he was talking about his more artsy side projects that he involves himself in so he wouldn't have to worry all the time about commercial ventures. Creative stuff that wouldn't sell but a handful of CDs. << So, how do you all deal with this? Say to hell with selling anything and do the artiste thang? Treat the money-making stuff like a day job? Find that your taste in music is commercial anyway, so you don't worry about it? Decided to take matters into your own hands and post MP3s? Think the music business will never recognize your talent? Expound away!! Craig Anderton Educational site: http://www.craiganderton.org Music: http://www.youtube.com/thecraiganderton Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/craig_anderton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xhavokmail.com Posted November 15, 2000 Share Posted November 15, 2000 I personally hope to always keep my presant state of mind. I hate major corparations of all kinds. In terms of my music I can see myself bending over on a few tracks just to draw in the commertially faithful ear, a few single worthy (in the eyes of the corp. scum) songs for radio play, vidoes etc. would do for me. I think about half of the stuff I do would have commertial, or mainstream potential. But I never, and will never change of disregard any of what may be considdered my "artsy" side of my music. I personally am an artist FIRST...I just happend to choose music as my main creative outlet. I think that music now is more about filling the pockets of the big wigs than it ever has been. Music now is like "fasion" is now. The consumer is loyal to what is widely exceptable, and over all what is popular. MTV, the GAP, Ambecrombie and Fitch (or what ever its called) Limp Bizkit, Back Street Boys, N-sinc, popular local radio. The guys in charge of major lables are just not looking for quality, or artistic musicians, no, they are only interested in people that are willing to take it up the ass so they can make a few extra dollars. (no time to spell check, sorry about the errors) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curve Dominant Posted November 15, 2000 Share Posted November 15, 2000 I love to dance, I love dance music, I love to make music that makes people dance, and so the currently exploding popularity of dance music across the globe provides a no-brainer for me: cut a dance record. That having been said, I do believe it is important for artists to continually stretch their artistic horizons, even if it means spending time on something that will not be profitable in the financial sense; it will surely be spiritually enriching. My instrumental works with local choreographers have been the most satisfying experiences since I first picked up an instrument. They are also incredibly work-intensive and time-consuming projects, and completely devoid of profit. One needs balance. You don't get a paycheck for hugging your loved ones, but you do it anyway. Make time for making money, and make time for being happy - that's my philosophy. Eric Vincent (ASCAP) www.curvedominant.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 15, 2000 Share Posted November 15, 2000 Originally posted by Curve Dominant: Make time for making money, and make time for being happy - and sometimes the twain will meet! That's when I'm really happy! Best regards, Mats Nermark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott from MA Posted November 15, 2000 Share Posted November 15, 2000 I've just accepted the fact that I will never be a "commercial success" in music. I'm not sure if it's "artistic integrity" or just that my music sucks! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif Seriously... I've had several opportunities to play in money-making situations, but I just wasn't into the music. I already have a money-making job during the day, why would I want to denigrate the only thing I enjoy for a few bucks?! Scott (just another cantankerous bastard) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Flier Posted November 15, 2000 Share Posted November 15, 2000 Well, that one's always been a no-brainer for me. I don't even feel like I have any choice in the matter, because "commercial" music makes me physically want to throw up. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif I do what I want and if it makes money, great, if not, I have a day job. Sometimes computer programming makes me wanna throw up too, but not nearly so much as bad music! I am not so invested emotionally in my day job, so whatever somebody tells me to do with a computer is no big deal to me. Now by "commercial" music I don't necessarily mean just whatever makes money or whatever is on a major label or is "mainstream". We all know that truly artistic stuff has on occasion made money. By "commercial" I mean music that was obviously specifically calculated to make money (or get famous or whatever), and artistic considerations were secondary. In 1985, at age 22, I ran screaming from my last session as a staff engineer and never went back. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/eek.gif This had been building for awhile (I'd been in the biz since age 15) as I'd begun to really resent the kinds of bands who got financial backing for recording vs. the ones who didn't. My last session was your basic mid 80's "commercial hard rock" band. They had the spandex, the spiky hair, the pretty-boy looks, the putrid Loverboy/Bon Jovi/Foreigner ripoff sound. The kind of band Spinal Tap made fun of. They all hated each other and competed for ego time. They had a bunch of money behind them and we had spent the past four MONTHS working on FOUR SONGS. Awful, despicable songs of course. And, after the last horrid day of listening to them bicker about which Linn drum sound they wanted to trigger off the snare and which reverb they wanted on it (which they fought over for five hours), I realized it was the last straw. I would never again do a gig strictly for money, and I didn't care if I had to starve. I still do freelance sessions with people I dig, and when I talk to the staff engineers I see not much has changed. Replace "commercial rock" with "commercial dance music" or "commercial teen pop" and you've got the picture. If you work in a big money studio, you might have the opportunity to work with some big names, but you're also gonna have to do a lot of CRAP in all likelihood. So if you're dreaming of getting into professional engineering or playing, be forewarned. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif That said, there are also lots more opportunities now to do what you love for money, than there were in the mid 80's. Lots of independent labels and studios exist, and of course the home project studio thang has exploded. You can sell your stuff over the Internet or through an indie label. It's doubtful in that market that you will become a "big star", but you'll be doing what makes you happy, and you can still make a few bucks. I think as more independent companies and artists learn to exploit the Internet and home studio crowds, there will be even more opportunities to find niche audiences that will pay to see you, and love you for who you are. They may not make you famous but they might pay your bills. I think that will be cool. If we can eliminate the "rock star" element of music, the people who are just in it for money, drugs and feeding a massive ego, so much the better for everybody. For myself, I'm just throwing my own stuff out there and taking my chances. Finances don't enter into it. If somebody wants to put money behind me just as I am, I won't complain if the deal is equitable. If not, oh well. My self esteem doesn't depend on seeing my name on the charts, because I know how the decisions are made in the industry as to who gets on the charts, and it rarely has anything to do with talent. It's tough to both make a living and play music, but not as tough in my opinion as having to be a slave to the biz. Read Bill Flanagan's new novel "A & R". If you don't know how the music biz works, it's an eye opener. If you're already working in the biz, you won't know whether to laugh or cry. --Lee [This message has been edited by Lee Flier (edited 11-15-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 15, 2000 Share Posted November 15, 2000 I've always thought of it this way: isn't being famous for something that's embarrassing worse than not being famous at all? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anderton Posted November 15, 2000 Author Share Posted November 15, 2000 Interesting that the posts so far are from people who place making music they want to make above making a living. I would have thought that some people do commercial work to pay the bills, then do what they like as side projects. I'm in an unusual position. The musical projects that make money for me tend to be more production, mastering, sample editing/creation, etc. I don't mind mastering something I dislike, because the art is in producing the perfect master, regardless of the material. No problem there. Same with production or engineering, although I'm more selective -- I try to avoid those "Spinal Tap" moments as mentioned by Lee. Hmmm, maybe that's why I haven't produced or engineered anything in over a year... As to my own music, I know that the type of music I do will likely never achieve mass commercial success, so that takes off some of the pressure. But every now and then, what I like to do syncs up with popular taste. This happened in the 60s, the 80s, and now once again, in the 00s. I guess I spend 17 years being "out," and 3 years being "in." Some people really like the dance music I'm doing now, but it's not that different from what I was doing 10 years ago, and people didn't like it then. Sometimes you have to wait for popular tastes to change before your music is considered commercially viable. Would I calculatedly write a song just to see if I could make a hit, regardless of whether I "felt" it or not? I'd like to try, because I wouldn't mind the $$. But I probably never will, because there are too many other things I'd like to do. I've known some pro songwriters and engineers who turn out what we would probably consider hopelessly manipulative, commercial music designed solely to rake in the bucks. But almost all of them believe in what they do and are sincere about it. I knew an engineer who'd get tears in his eyes when he heard "Windmills of Your Mind." Not my cup of tea, but if it pushed his buttons for real, who am I to judge? In a related thread from several months ago ("Does it suck just because it sells?"), I confessed to really liking the Celine Dion song "That's Just the Way it Is." I'd be willing to bet that the singer and songwriter were sincere in making what they thought was a great piece of music. I doubt that it was a cynical attempt to just rake in bucks, with no emotion behind it. But then again, what do I know? As the old saying goes... "In Hollywood, sincerity is everything. Once you can fake that, you've got it made." Craig Anderton Educational site: http://www.craiganderton.org Music: http://www.youtube.com/thecraiganderton Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/craig_anderton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Flier Posted November 15, 2000 Share Posted November 15, 2000 Originally posted by Anderton: Interesting that the posts so far are from people who place making music they want to make above making a living. I would have thought that some people do commercial work to pay the bills, then do what they like as side projects. Well, a lot of people do do it, but I don't know how. I tried that. I tried it with the engineering, and I also was a "pro" gigging musician for a long time. What I found was that the stuff I had to do for money started killing the joy of playing or recording my "real" stuff. After a 14 hour session with Spinal Tap Mach II, the last thing I felt like doing when I got home was picking up my guitar. And being a gigging musician likewise meant playing out 4 nights a week, traveling a lot, and rehearsing or doing sessions the rest of the time. So unless you're in a "big money" bracket where you get paid a ton of money per gig or song, it's tough! I'm in an unusual position. The musical projects that make money for me tend to be more production, mastering, sample editing/creation, etc. I don't mind mastering something I dislike, because the art is in producing the perfect master, regardless of the material. No problem there. Same with production or engineering, although I'm more selective -- I try to avoid those "Spinal Tap" moments as mentioned by Lee. Hmmm, maybe that's why I haven't produced or engineered anything in over a year... LOL!!! (gasp... snort..) Well there you have it. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif I still manage to do a production or engineering gig a couple of times a year too. But let's face it, there aren't enough truly great artists out there for most of us to both make our living AND do what we love. Some people really like the dance music I'm doing now, but it's not that different from what I was doing 10 years ago, and people didn't like it then. Sometimes you have to wait for popular tastes to change before your music is considered commercially viable. Ain't that the truth! The music I play has gone "in" and "out" of style several times since I've been playing. Nowadays I'm working on stuff that I think is pretty new, so I have no idea what the commercial world will think of it. But I don't think about that! You could drive yourself nuts if you did. Would I calculatedly write a song just to see if I could make a hit, regardless of whether I "felt" it or not? I'd like to try, because I wouldn't mind the $$. But I probably never will, because there are too many other things I'd like to do. Yeah, my dad has always asked me why I don't just churn out some piece of crap and sell it to somebody so I could pursue the music I love without having another job. I try and explain to him that it isn't that easy! If a song just came out of me that sounded like a hit that I could sell to somebody, great, but just sitting down and trying to churn one out is not easy unless that's what you're used to doing. In a related thread from several months ago ("Does it suck just because it sells?"), I confessed to really liking the Celine Dion song "That's Just the Way it Is." I'd be willing to bet that the singer and songwriter were sincere in making what they thought was a great piece of music. I doubt that it was a cynical attempt to just rake in bucks, with no emotion behind it. But then again, what do I know? As the old saying goes... "In Hollywood, sincerity is everything. Once you can fake that, you've got it made." LOL... yeah. You're totally right that a lot of people really believe that what they do is good when it sounds like calculated crap. I suppose I don't have as much of a problem with that (even if I think the music really sucks) as the kind of people I often had to deal with in L.A. even if the music was GOOD. One of the last bands I was in out there was started by a couple of guys who'd relocated to L.A. to "get famous". And their music was really not bad at all, it just needed work, they needed to gain experience. But, when they weren't famous within 6 months they fired the rhythm section and wanted to change direction completely. Of course I quit at that point, and the band totally sucked. And that's certainly not the first or last time some talented or potentially talented people threw their career out the window in pursuit of money and fame. --Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiny G Posted November 15, 2000 Share Posted November 15, 2000 As an engineer, even if I don't like the project I'm working on I'll take it as a challenge to make it better. If it's a jingle, I'll try and make it the best sounding jingle on the air. Don't confuse your "artistic integrity" with "happiness". Who cares what others think? If Bob Dylan wanted to sell Pepsi it wouldn't change his contribution to music. (further rantings deleted) ... and I know this isn't what you ment by "commercial" music, but the point is the same. ------------------ Tiny G Tiny G Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tedster Posted November 15, 2000 Share Posted November 15, 2000 >>I'm in an unusual position. The musical projects that make money for me tend to be more production, mastering, sample editing/creation, etc. I don't mind mastering something I dislike, because the art is in producing the perfect master, regardless of the material. No problem there. This is what I was getting at...I haven't really contributed to this thread as I'm not in a major position where I have to compromise significant stuff to make a living. Although any bar band that has to learn songs they hate could be classified in that category, only on a minor level. Excellent contributions from everyone! Wow... Has anyone worked with, say, ZZ Top? They come to mind as the classic "we're in it for the art of blues boogie" in their early years, and then "let's change our style and water ourselves down and sell records". Of course, the quintessential King of this has got to be Phil Collins... Yep, there's some commercial stuff out there I do really like. But it really pisses me off when there comes a great song on the radio which goes nowhere because it hasn't been watered down. I'd also be interested to hear from those who've had problems with over-production...i.e. adding an orchestra to an otherwise raw rocker just to make it sound more radio friendly... "Cisco Kid, was a friend of mine" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ST.Morigeaugte.net Posted November 15, 2000 Share Posted November 15, 2000 I heard the young Christina Agullar(sic), do a jazz standard. It made wonder.... is hers a marketing thing? Yes she is just a kid, and yes I think that her stuff is valid. But man that was a good number...... I hope that she does venture in to other styles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Flier Posted November 16, 2000 Share Posted November 16, 2000 Originally posted by Tedster: Has anyone worked with, say, ZZ Top? They come to mind as the classic "we're in it for the art of blues boogie" in their early years, and then "let's change our style and water ourselves down and sell records". Of course, the quintessential King of this has got to be Phil Collins... Egads, don't even get me started. That was another thing that sent me running from the pro engineer gig, I didn't think I could take it if one more person asked me to get them that "gated reverb" snare sound a la Phil. BLAH!! That one Phil Collins record ("No Jackass Required" or whatever it was)ruined drum sounds for the next 10 years! And yeah, I remember putting on an early ZZ Top album that had been remastered for CD, turned out they didn't just remaster it but they remixed the whole freakin' thing, and made it sound all commercial and cheesy like their more recent stuff! Luckily, I'm not the world's biggest ZZ Top fan, but some of their hardcore fans were SOOOO bummed out. Kinda like Ted Turner colorizing old movies. Yipes! I'd also be interested to hear from those who've had problems with over-production...i.e. adding an orchestra to an otherwise raw rocker just to make it sound more radio friendly... Gads, it happens all the time. My argument against this is always that there are lots of things that make it on the radio without being completely overblown, watered down and slicked up. And people who feel the need to do that are often insecure about their music being able to stand on its own. Either that or they've got a producer with a big ego who feels the need to leave a big greasy thumbprint all over all his records. Or both. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif Luckily, there are certain skills that will never go out of style - like learning the basic principles of acoustics and recording. Someone may ask you to really abuse those principles, and you may even WANT to at times, but at least you'll always have a good starting point, and those skills will stay with you long after you've decided the latest whizbang gadget that everybody just "has to have" was totally over-hyped. --Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 16, 2000 Share Posted November 16, 2000 The thing about commercial music is, the more I learn about the process of making records, the more I respect the abilities of those who get the major label budgets. Its not easy to make a Back Sync Spear record. I mean OK why would you want to? Well I just wanna know how you do it, use ideas from it in what is hopefully a more musically valuable way. And man! One record like that and the phone is ringing. You get to pick your next project right? And if you make a couple or more of really high $$ tracks, you get past the "flavor of the month" label. Now if you work in more than one genre so you don't get pigeonholed you might just find yourself posting a post like Senor Reitzas (Just had a great day - giving away free stuff) http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif Or maybe this is all just a dream and I should stick to recording only great musicians who are making art. Oh wait a minute, actually in order to make a living at this I have to record just about anyone that comes through the door with $40 an hour to spend. Day jobs kill my desire to play my own music even more than bad sessions do, and besides the only way to get better is to do this a lot. I remember hearing Eddie Kramer say something that rocked my world. I can't quote exactly, but it was along the lines of this. Jimi Hendrix naturally tended to play these long jam sessions in the studio. In order to make it commercially viable they would make him do one take that fit in the 3min 33second "standard". Jimi found the best parts of the jam takes and "edited" it down to just the best stuff - and thats what we got at the store. Now I know in Jimi's case it can be argued that if he just dropped his guitar it sounded better than anything in heavy rotation today, but I would say thats not true. Jimi could play too long and drag a bad idea out just like all musicians do at times. The commercial considerations were a framework which he used to sharpen his focus. Brittney? Pop production genius. Not just marketing, also mixing. Might suck stylewise - but not easy to do. And imagine how much it sucks to be her! Just ask Debbie Gibson or Tiffany what happens when the carriage reverts to a pumpkin! Oh yeah - if the record wasn't promoted, most likely (with very few notable exceptions) you didn't hear it to decide whether or not you liked it. Without the commerce there is no record - unless we just dump the capitalist system and start sharing - http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif fine with me! Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent_powellpalmercay.com Posted November 16, 2000 Share Posted November 16, 2000 Anybody seen the new Jack in the Box commercial with "The Meaty Cheesy Boys"? The new one finds the boy band back in the studio trying to follow up their last hit single about the Ultimate Cheeseburger. They're all around a piano trying to find the note. Then they're all lined up with headphones in front of the mics and music stands singing horribly off key in unison. On the other side of the glass, the producer turns to the engineer and asks "You can fix that, right?" The engineer nods grimly. Ah, vindication. To respond to the thread personally, I don't think I will ever write anything that will sell to the 10 year old girls who buy most of the CD's. I hear that vocal style, where the R&B singing coach has them add 10 syllables worth of vibrato to whatever word comes at the end of the line, and I weep for humanity. What were we talking about again? Excuse me, I have to go drink now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Flier Posted November 16, 2000 Share Posted November 16, 2000 Originally posted by spoomuz@hotmail.com: Oh wait a minute, actually in order to make a living at this I have to record just about anyone that comes through the door with $40 an hour to spend. Day jobs kill my desire to play my own music even more than bad sessions do, and besides the only way to get better is to do this a lot. Well that's a very good point. For at least a few years, it's good to do any session you can get your hands on, even if you don't like the music much, because you get to get better and gain lots of experience. In my case, after I'd been doing that for 5 years I started to burn out on it, but your mileage may vary and you may well still find a bad session preferable to a day job. But, if you don't, you needn't be ashamed of yourself or give up music. Jimi could play too long and drag a bad idea out just like all musicians do at times. The commercial considerations were a framework which he used to sharpen his focus. Absolutely! Something doesn't automatically suck just because it's radio friendly, and even if you are not trying to have a "hit" record it does help to consider that you most likely DO want your music to be heard and appreciated by other people. That means that the 20 minute guitar solo that sounds really great to your stoned jam buddies, is probably just going to sound like a wankoff to anybody else. I do think it's possible to be considerate toward your audience without pandering to them. Sometimes what you might call "commercial consideration" - focusing on a good song, tight arrangements, staying within a budget on your recording - DOES improve the music greatly. I try to keep those things in mind even when recording at home, and so can anybody. Oh yeah - if the record wasn't promoted, most likely (with very few notable exceptions) you didn't hear it to decide whether or not you liked it. Without the commerce there is no record - unless we just dump the capitalist system and start sharing - http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif fine with me! Heheh... absolutely! Getting a promotion machine behind you can really get things going. But again - it doesn't happen to that many people, and the people it happens to are seldom the ones who deserve it from an artistic standpoint. So we can have respect for the actual things the biz does. I just think they could be done better. --Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pro Jules Posted November 16, 2000 Share Posted November 16, 2000 The old chestnut is do three killer comercial albums then do 'your own cooler stuff. In practice most bands cant stick to an agreed plan of what to wear on stage, and a general 'I know we agreed, but, er I changed my mind" mentality sets in (integrity right!). Before they know it, they reach their middle thirties and decide suddenly "OK! I will try it now, let's go for it, lets BE comercial lets BE immage concious!" Then sadly they have left it too late and no one wants to know or gives a shit. The slow donkeys get left behind EEEOOOR! Easy to call it integrity when you are chewing a carrot with big ears poking through your hat. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/eek.gif http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/mad.gif It's up to you. Jules Jules Producer Julian Standen London, UK, Come hang here! http://www.gearslutz.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
claytonaudiodellnet.com Posted November 16, 2000 Share Posted November 16, 2000 I'm a man of few words, know yourself. What do you really want to do. Play music so people dance and have fun or play music so people sit and go WOW..I've mixed some dance bands that I hated the music,but they were really good at what they did. I've mixed "artsy" bands that I loved but no one came to see..It's all good..Do what makes you happy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anderton Posted November 16, 2000 Author Share Posted November 16, 2000 >>What I found was that the stuff I had to do for money started killing the joy of playing or recording my "real" stuff.<< I know this syndrome. Many years ago I was doing a ton of session work in New York, mostly at CBS studios. Some of it was fun, but the pressure was incredible. I always felt like the gunslinger in the western movies -- there was always some hot kid who was faster on the draw just around the corner. Also, so much of what I played had nothing to do with what I felt was appropriate, but with what the producer wanted. I don't have a problem with that per se -- imagine if you hired a painter to paint a room red, and he said "Well, I really like blue, so that's what I used" -- but life is pretty damn short. I felt I could put my time to better use playing what gave me pleasure rather than what someone else wanted to hear. n.p.: SEven Dub, "Rock It Tonight" Craig Anderton Educational site: http://www.craiganderton.org Music: http://www.youtube.com/thecraiganderton Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/craig_anderton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the stranger Posted November 16, 2000 Share Posted November 16, 2000 And yeah, I remember putting on an early ZZ Top album that had been remastered for CD, turned out they didn't just remaster it but they remixed the whole freakin' thing, and made it sound all commercial and cheesy like their more recent stuff! I bought a CD version of Twisted Sister's "Under The Blade" and I was totally pissed. They not only remixed it, they actually re-recorded guitars and vox and shit!! WTF were they thinking??!!! I had the Secret(label) tape and it was a quite horrid sounding thing, but it had the serious vibe. It was pouring out of the speakers. Im figured "hey, I'll get the CD-it should be remastered and should be clearer, etc. The re-"fucked"-up version was dead. Anyway, I think that honesty is the key. Are you playing was is you? Are you being true to your self? I have seen many of my favorite acts go straight down the toilet over the years and the big question was always...did they sell-out? I sometimes wonder if a lot of the bands branded sell-outs just hit the wall creatively. They just were tapped out. Question: If you are an underground legend and you decide Bob Rock would be a good producer, is it selling out? http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif ------------------ destructive workshops Want to hear some of my stuff? [This message has been edited by dr destructo (edited 11-16-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BP3 Posted November 17, 2000 Share Posted November 17, 2000 Originally posted by Tedster: Has anyone worked with, say, ZZ Top? They come to mind as the classic "we're in it for the art of blues boogie" in their early years, and then "let's change our style and water ourselves down and sell records". Of course, the quintessential King of this has got to be Phil Collins... Phil Collins - the best drummer to ever reverse the artistic curve. His playing in the 70s was incredible. Any hack could play the stuff he does now. Complete sell-out. [This message has been edited by TinderArts (edited 11-16-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Aikin Posted November 17, 2000 Share Posted November 17, 2000 Originally posted by TinderArts: Phil Collins - the best drummer to ever reverse the artistic curve. His playing in the 70s was incredible. Any hack could play the stuff he does now. Complete sell-out. Yeah, he makes it sound easy, doesn't he? But if "any hack" could do it ... go ahead. What's stopping you? One of the many things I've learned from writing fiction is that a good writer makes it *seem* easy, natural, and effortless. The painstaking craft is *supposed* to disappear so you can just enjoy the result. But that doesn't mean there's no craft involved, boyo! I've read some really awful manuscripts by amateurs who sincerely thought they were doing exactly the same thing the pros do. The fact that the craft was invisible fooled them, you see. So yeah, Phil's late '70s fusion instrumental work (damn, what was the name of the band?) was brilliant, and his later pop work pales by comparison. But don't tell me any hack could do it! --Jim Aikin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Flier Posted November 17, 2000 Share Posted November 17, 2000 Originally posted by Jim Aikin: Yeah, he makes it sound easy, doesn't he? But if "any hack" could do it ... go ahead. What's stopping you? I'll tell ya what's stopping me - I'd woof my cookies if I had to play that crap every day! It was bad enough engineering on it! So yeah, Phil's late '70s fusion instrumental work (damn, what was the name of the band?) Genesis. Never liked them either. But prog rock/fusion has never been my thang at all so I'm biased. --Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richt Posted November 17, 2000 Share Posted November 17, 2000 Originally posted by Jim Aikin: So yeah, Phil's late '70s fusion instrumental work (damn, what was the name of the band?) was brilliant... Brand X was that band and damn did they cook! I dunno, I really liked his solo stuff up to the 90's. Despite the detractors, "No Jacket Required" is a classic album, sold a ton of copies and like Jim, I'd like to see any "hack" top it for good songs and sales! Ciao, Richt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Aikin Posted November 17, 2000 Share Posted November 17, 2000 Originally posted by Lee Flier: I'll tell ya what's stopping me - I'd woof my cookies if I had to play that crap every day! It was bad enough engineering on it! Tell ya what: I'll hold the bag while you barf, and you can endorse the checks over to me. All I'm saying is, there's a difference -- a huge difference -- between saying something makes you ill and saying it's easy to do. I never listen to country music, because I find the lyrics thoroughly insipid and I already know those four chords -- but damn, some of those folks can play! Country records tend to be immaculately engineered as well. You don't have to admire or even be able to stomach country music to acknowledge that. And I'm sure country songwriters hone their craft too: It may sound trite -- hell, it *is* trite -- but it's trite in a very precise, controlled way. --Jim A. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Flier Posted November 17, 2000 Share Posted November 17, 2000 Originally posted by Jim Aikin: Tell ya what: I'll hold the bag while you barf, and you can endorse the checks over to me. All I'm saying is, there's a difference -- a huge difference -- between saying something makes you ill and saying it's easy to do. Well I never said it was easy to do. But hey, I'm sure it isn't easy to make a genetically engineered pig/human hybrid either, but that doesn't mean we oughta do it! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/eek.gif Or that we should appreciate the people who did. --Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Flier Posted November 17, 2000 Share Posted November 17, 2000 Originally posted by richt: Brand X was that band and damn did they cook! Oh yeah, forgot about them. One "progressive" 70's band sounds pretty much like another, eh Jim? http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif --Lee [This message has been edited by Lee Flier (edited 11-16-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Aikin Posted November 17, 2000 Share Posted November 17, 2000 Originally posted by Lee Flier: One "progressive" 70's band sounds pretty much like another, eh Jim? http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif Yeah, I always confuse Brand X with the Monkees. Or was that Strawberry Alarm Clock? Tommy James & The Shondelles? The Beau Brummels? Helllllppp meeeeee..... I'm having a fllasshhhbbacckkkkkk!!! --JA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anderton Posted November 17, 2000 Author Share Posted November 17, 2000 >>But hey, I'm sure it isn't easy to make a genetically engineered pig/human hybrid either<< Given how many are walking around, it can't be all that hard. Craig Anderton Educational site: http://www.craiganderton.org Music: http://www.youtube.com/thecraiganderton Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/craig_anderton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Flier Posted November 17, 2000 Share Posted November 17, 2000 Too funny Craig!! Except it's kinda not funny. I think it's REALLY scary that there has been no mention of this in any U.S. media that I've heard, but check out this article from the London Times last month: http://www.sunday-times.co.uk/news/pages/sti/2000/10/08/stifgnaus01001.html Here's the gist of it: >>SCIENTISTS have successfully produced an embryonic pig-human hybrid. Nobody knows whether the hybrid embryos could have become living beings. They would be much more human than pig because about 97% of DNA is in the nucleus, which was human. There would, however, be some effect from the 3% of DNA from the pig.<< This is truly some scary shit. I mean, you wanna talk about integrity vs. money! [This message has been edited by Lee Flier (edited 11-17-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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