DRUM MACHINES

[Guest]

Any precautions with using drum/rhythm machines, such as picking up bad habits that may present problems when playing others? I'm considering picking up a Alesis SR-16, I've goofed around with one a the local music store, but don't really know a lot about them. I've heard good and bad from friends, but I thought I'd solicit outside my circle. Any input would be appreciated.

 

Morigeau

[alphajerk]

yea, you will start to see how bad real drummers timing is.

 

also it will highly improve your timing. the tireless drummer is a great practice tool.

 

what do you play?

[Guest]

I play Bass. I've been playing at it for about 10 yrs, but really have gotten serious the last year. Like a lot of the posters I'm setting up a studio in the home, rehearse during the week and play on weekends. This weekend though I'm in the salt mines. Just can't keep my mind on the work though. So I stick my head into the forum occasionally.

[alphajerk]

well as a person who grew up learning to play the piano to a metronome, the drum machine is a godsend for working on your chops. it gets your timing rock solid and there whenever you want to play.

 

i love my drum sounds and sequencer. i have probably spend way to many hours doodling along to it on guitar.

[Guest]

Cool..... What do you know about the Alesis SR-16? I've heard it called .....'the industry standard' for drum machines. I ain't gotta clue.

[Scott from MA]

I have the SR-16, and use it extensively in my studio. The factory preset patterns are terrible, but the drum sounds are fantastic. Spend some time tweaking the sounds and create and save your own drumset, then take the time to program in your own patterns. It may seem a little time consuming at first, but it will be worth it in the long-run.

 

Once you get used to programming it (which isn't hard at all), you will find it easy to create entire songs that don't sound like just a repeating pattern.

[DBENNVAhotmail.com]

Morigeau,

 

The SR-16 is good. Very old but good. I think almost 10 years old. I think the first time I got my hands on one was in like 1992.

Another option might be the Boss DR770.

 

Quantum! C/O

DBENNVA@hotmail.com

[Guest]

I've seen the DR770 as well. I'm looking to use the unit as drum machine at first. The cost of the DR770 is about 100+ bucks more, but does offer more bells and whistles. In fact I jammed with a couple of engineers this past Tuesday and we used one. It was really versatile.

 

Can you program in changes with the SR-16, or are the tracks pretty much set?

[DBENNVAhotmail.com]

Morigeau,

 

You asking me about programming the SR-16?

I don't know. It's been so long since I really got into the SR-16. My group is thinking of getting the DM Pro to add to our Dr-660. That's because Alesis drum products do have some good sounds. I personally had a

D-4 a couple of years ago. I do know that the DR-770 is pretty much set up like the DR-660. You can make a custom drum kit while assigning it as part of a sequence. You then create a song by linking the sequences in series. As the song goes through it's different parts the drumkits change. You can do this manually by choosing different sequences one at a time, & again the drum kit will change. I don't know if it will do this through external MIDI command. I don't much like talking about what I'm not sure of. If you can swing getting the "770" ask to check out it's manual before you buy at a local retailer. The other facts I've stated can be taken as solid info. though. Also call an associate of mine Bryan Murray at 18004SAMASH Ext. 2222. He could possibly get you such a great deal on the "770" that it might become affordable to you. I call Sam Ash for prices, & they always beat everyone else. I've seen them give me legit prices $150.00 cheaper than the competition on sizable items. I really don't recommend buying anywhere else.

 

Quantum! C/O

DBENNVA@hotmail.com

[Guest]

Cool...... I'll let ya know what they tell me. THANKS!

[alphajerk]

i dont know what they mean by an industry standard. i would guess more mpc2000 are in use right now than anything else. maybe the sp1200 after that or the asr... but those are a little more fancy than simply a drum machine.

 

i own a DM5 and some sounds are alright, some outright suck. the DMPro supposedly has twice the amount of sounds so i guess it would be a good buy. i really only use my DM5 as a trigger to midi convertor. the sampler takes care of a lot of the actual sound module sets... i can customize my sounds better that way and not stuck with whats burned on the ROM.

 

if i remember right, its just a little dopy drum machine with a rudimentary sequencer inside it.

 

you can load .mid files probably for sequences or program them by hand [either to a click track or step]

[Lee Flier]

The only good drum machine is a dead drum machine.

 

--Lee

[Guest]

er... ah? Could you expound.....? Lee.

[Punchmo]

I have a DR 660 and use it only when there is no other option or, most often as click track. One issue I have, and I don't use it very often, if you build a part starting with kik, snare, etc. and, if you want to erase a sound you just added to that part you can't...or can you? I can't figure it out any other way but to re-do the whole part! What am I missing?

sp

[Curve Dominant]

The SR16 is a midi sequencer as well as a drum machine, and can be used to trigger drum sets in keyboards, as well as play its own sounds and patterns. It also has 4 outs (2 main & 2 Aux) so if you have a mixer you can mix kick, snare, cymbles & percussion seperately; if you run a midi cable to a keyboard that has drum sounds and run that keyboard's outputs to your mixer, now you're really off to the races with your sound options. I have used the SR16 in this capacity, triggering the Roland 808 & 909 sounds on my Roland XP-10 keyboard, sometimes blending kicks & snares from both sources, and the results are off da hook.

 

Yes, you can program tracks in addition to using the factory presets (program your own, Scott is right). Its programming capabilities are amazing, given the unit's price (approx $200). You can quantize from 32note triplets to 1/4 notes, or you can turn quantization off if you want that "natural" feel (got that Lee?), and add degrees of swing as well. Then there is "Sound Stacking," where you can copy sound parts to different pads, which helps compensate for the lameness of some of the sounds; basically this means that if you can't find that "just right" kick, you can blend two kicks together at various pitches and volumes to create your own sounds.

 

Now the downside: the sounds on the SR16 have become quite dated. If you want to record something up-to-date in the dance or urban mode, fughettaboutit. I'm currently doing urban-contemporary, so the Alesis is out of the question for me now, and I've opted for a sampler-sequencer. It's cool for rock, or tooling around or experimenting with arrangements; actually it is a fantastic composing tool for the price, and alphajerk's practice-mode words were right on the money. The Akai MPC2000, on the other hand, is in another league - you could cut an entire CD on that (which is done often, especially in Hip Hop & dance), but it is a sample/sequencer, pricier ($1300), and has a steeper learning curve. My advice would be, if that's not what you want to get into, spring $400 for a Korg ElectribeR. It is hipper, phatter, funkier, and easier to use than the Alesis, and as a bassist it might fit you better. But it will not program odd time signatures - 4/4 only. If you're a Greek musician, this won't work; in which case, get the Alesis.

 

[This message has been edited by Curve Dominant (edited 11-12-2000).]

[Curve Dominant]

P.S. to Lee Flier:

 

The Alesis SR16 is perfect for folks like you who don't like the "mechanical" sound. Just turn the quantization off, and what you play is what it plays back. I did a brief lead-singer stint with a Philly hard rock band who's drummer programmed their demo's drum tracks on the Alesis, and fuckin-a, it sounded like a real drummer, because he really mastered its touch-sensitivity capabilities, its quantization flexibility, and he also used a lot of odd time signatures. You can use it to develop songs, then bring a human drummer in to do the final tracks. Don't be afraid of the beatbox.

[alphajerk]

thanks curve.

 

and ditto. i have an artist who does EVERYTHING on his recordings and uses a drum machine sans quantization and its very hard to tell its a drum machine. when i heard his demo i even asked who played the drums...

 

i think you just got a bad taste from the 80's crap drum programming lee.

 

and i can think of many instances where the real drummer would be better off dead.

[Guest]

Hey Curve... Alpha thanks guy's. But let me ask about the DR770...... I've read some of techie stuff on it also, but again limited to no hands on.

 

Also my theroy instructor would beat me over the head with it if it only programed 4/4.

 

Morigeau

[Guest]

Yeah Lee that was helpful. I still use an older DR550. The 770 has more sounds but the interface is the same. Very quick and intuitive.

[DBENNVAhotmail.com]

Peeps,

 

On the DR-660/770. If you want to erase something put it(the660/770)into record/start, & hold the delete button down while pressing the pad that corresponds with the drum sound that you want to erase. It will play through the pattern. Hold these two buttons down only during the times of the notes that you want to erase. If you keep them held down all through the pattern you will erase everything in the pattern for the respective notes you've held down. You can also erase multiple sounds/notes at one time by holding multiple pads down at one time, and doing the same thing with the delete button. You can set time signatures. When you start a new pattern put the machine in what is like a record/arm state by only pushing the record button, & not pressing the start button. The red light will come on. Flip through the blinking figures in the window by tapping the arrow buttons until it highlights the time signature(they blink on/off),& scroll through them until you get the time signature you want. I hope this helps. I'm not a manual writer.

 

Quantum! C/O

DBENNVA@hotmail.com

[Lee Flier]

Oops, uh, sorry, I had guests this weekend and couldn't expound too much. And anyway, I thought everybody knew my views about drum machines by now. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif Bottom line, I mostly hate them. Your mileage may vary, but I'll try to sum up why here. See the "Electronic Music: Does It Suck?" thread for more, if you really want!

 

Alpha, Curve, it's not just bad 80's programming that soured me on drum machines. Nor is it just the "mechanical" sounding beats. I have heard very good drum programming (have even done some myself) which sounds very "realistic". If anything, I think that is worse than the "mechanical" sounding stuff. I mean, if you WANT a machine playing drums, use the machine, and don't try to make it sound like a "real" drummer. If you want a "human sounding" drum part, get a human. Seems simple enough.

 

Morigeau, if you're playing bass and want to use a drum machine for practice, what I would do if I were you is get the cheesiest drum machine you can find, dial up the cheesiest sounds you can find, and use that. You can still work on your bass chops or song arrangements that way, but you will never be tempted to use the drum machine rather than a real drummer (unless you really want robotic electronic sounds which is a possible creative option). You will never forget that, although a machine may SOUND human, it is NOT human, and there is no point to trying to make it sound human. Last but not least, when you do play with a good live drummer, you'll really appreciate it, after playing along with a really cheesy drum machine. You won't get on his case for the variations in timing or dynamics which make him human (as well as make the song really move).

 

And yes, I've been in situations where the drummer would be better off dead, too. This does not cause me to reach for a drum machine. It causes me to look for a better drummer. I have never, ever been in a situation where the only options were to use a drum machine or the music wouldn't get recorded at all. I have always found a drummer. All it takes is the will to do it rather than carting out a machine because it's easier.

 

The blasted things can be useful as a compositional arrangement tool or a practice tool. But in that case, do yourself a favor and don't try to make it sound "realistic". Then you'll never be tempted to just go ahead and use it on the final product.

 

Just my not-so-humble opinion, of course.

 

--Lee

 

 

[This message has been edited by Lee Flier (edited 11-12-2000).]

[Curve Dominant]

Lee:

 

Can we accurately surmise that you have an unfavorable view of drum machines?

[Guest]

Hey thanks Lee!! This is also side of the issue I was looking for! I didn't want just one side. I had asked if there were any precautions I should be ware of. The sudden realization / identification of my rhythm partners short comings would definitely be an issue. One that I will be glad that I had some prior thoughts on, and not just grab the sticks from them! Of course I have notice this of my band mates from time to time, as they have noticed of me Im sure.

 

I dont live with a drummer, the keyboard I do have doesnt have the greatest drum tracks, hence the thought of a digital drummer. No way would I ever wanna replace stick boy..

 

 

[This message has been edited by MORIGEAU (edited 11-13-2000).]

[DBENNVAhotmail.com]

Lee,

 

Good points on the position of using the drum machine as a compositional/practice tool. But you seem to have missed a few things. If your music is supposed to be purely acoustic as a far as the final product is concerned with the rhythm elements, great get a drummer. If you're doing contemporary Reggae/Dance Hall, R&B, Hip-Hop, Dance, Techno, or Pop then your opinions against using the drum machine are way off. When I do Rock compositions I use the drum machine just as you mentioned until I can get my hands on a drummer. But in doing the Reggae/Dance Hall, R&B, Hip-Hop, Dance, Techno, or Pop production what gets laid down in the composition/pre-production phase via drum machine,&/or sampler stays. I think you might want to reserve some elements of your opinions to be isolated to certain genre's of music regarding the use of the drum machine. And additionally I'd ask you to re-evalute your position of using the drum machine in any instance where drum replacement needs to be done in Rock, Jazz, or Country, & etc. types of productions. Just my opinion.

 

Quantum! C/O

DBENNVA@hotmail.com

[alphajerk]

lee,

 

what about king crimsons last album [maybe two ago] where a real drummer used the VDrum set from roland. its a drum machine for certain. or what about future man playing a drum machine with bela fleck?

[Lee Flier]

Originally posted by DBENNVA@hotmail.com:

...in doing the Reggae/Dance Hall, R&B, Hip-Hop, Dance, Techno, or Pop production what gets laid down in the composition/pre-production phase via drum machine,&/or sampler stays. I think you might want to reserve some elements of your opinions to be isolated to certain genre's of music regarding the use of the drum machine.

Nah, I think Reggae, Hip-Hop, Dance and Pop music would all be a lot better for it if people quit (or greatly reduced) using drum machines on them.

 

As for techno, I don't like very much techno, but I have said quite a few times that if somebody WANTS to have a "mechanical" or "electronic" sound a la techno then it's true, they ought to use a drum machine. And I have heard some people do that well, like NIN and Kraftwerk.

 

And additionally I'd ask you to re-evalute your position of using the drum machine in any instance where drum replacement needs to be done in Rock, Jazz, or Country, & etc. types of productions.

 

Errrhhhh.... I can't think of any instance where drum replacement "needs" to be done. Either you choose to do it out of convenience, or you choose to re-record the drums. Which one you choose reflects your own artistic values (or those of your client). But it doesn't ever "need" to be done. I think we have come to rely overly much on that technology because it's convenient for both songwriters and engineers. The very big downside is it often takes creativity away from the musicians (especially the drummer, but not necessarily JUST the drummer), and it also often takes something away from the quality of the end result.

 

--Lee

 

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by Lee Flier (edited 11-13-2000).]

[Lee Flier]

Curve: Now where would you ever get the idea that I have an unfavorable opinion of drum machines? http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

 

Alpha: Never have liked King Crimson at all. And I haven't heard the particular Bela Fleck you're referring to, so I can't comment on it. Which CD is it?

 

Morigeau: Sounds like you have a great attitude about all this. And as to seeing your drummer's irregularities as "shortcomings", I posted this link on another thread but I think it's worth repeating. It was written by a drummer and reflects his opinion of what the general reverence for click tracks and drum machines and "perfect time" really does to drumming (and therefore music in general, since the other musicians follow the drummer):

http://www.sospubs.co.uk/index.htm

 

Just something to bear in mind...

--Lee

[DBENNVAhotmail.com]

Lee,

 

I agree with you "in theory" about not "needing" drums to be replaced. But in the real world of budgets, & deadlines sometimes the drum replacements become mandatory to "get it done" on time, & under budget. Oh don't we all wish for an ideal world.

 

Quantum! C/O

DBENNVA@hotmail.com

[Guest]

I sell drum machines, and I have them all. Let me tell you that defining the SR-16 as "slightly dated" as a drum engine is a serious understatement. However, the sound quality, like in all Alesis stuff, is very good, and it can still be used unless you're doing urban/hiphop/dance, in which case you may want to pick up a more up-to-date machine such as Boss DR-202 (specific for urban styles) or 770 (more generic).

However, I will suggest you something else:

try a bigger drum/sequencer/expander module suchas Ensoniq ASR-X, which is also a sampler, because it will do ALL of the stuff a drum machine does, but better, and you will not only use it for practice or simple stuff, but it might well became your main composing tool.

And yes, the drum machine really does improve your timing.

 

Max,

Italy.

[Guest]

>>argomax@galassia303.it:

I sell drum machines, and I have them all.

Max,

Italy.<<

 

As I've learned in the past week or so the ASR is really cool. The SR-16 is just as you stated.. dated. I believe that the DR770 would be a good fit. You can find new units at a reasonable price ..... but I won't pay it. So the search is on.

 

Italy huh?? I guess it wouldn't be any good to ask you to hook a brother up?? jokes..

 

Thanks

 

 

[This message has been edited by MORIGEAU (edited 11-13-2000).]