Chronic Windows crash

[hmasseyuemedia.com]

Hello Craig and All,

 

In hopes of avoiding the dreaded Microsoft tech support "hotline," I wonder if any of you can provide me with a clue as to why my Windows PC crashes every third or fourth time I boot up. It's a Pentium II / 450 system with tons of RAM (128 MB) and it's running under Windows 98 (the second release).

 

What happens is, just at the very end of the bootup phase, I get an error dialog simply saying that Explorer has shut down; clicking either option does nothing and a warm boot (Ctrl/Alt/Del) doesn't work either; I need to do a hard boot to get going again. Sometimes this will happen two or three times in a row before the machine comes to life; other times, I can go weeks without the problem occurring at all. I did a complete clean reinstall of the OS and the problem still remains.

 

This is a relatively new machine and I haven't really loaded a whole lot of software or drivers that might be gumming up the works. Any suggestions as to what I can try short of egging Bill Gates' mansion?

 

Thanks!

[Curve Dominant]

There are 23,000 scripting errors in Windows 98. I have been on forums with Micro$oft employees who admit to this, although their attitude is, "So what? I'm moving into my new $6 million digs in the Hamptons this weekend."

 

Well, for starters, you could sell that piece of @#$%&*! and get a Mac G4 with 500mhz duel processor, for which Cubase has just released software that utilizes the duel processor by assigning half of your tracks to one, and the other half to the other. That thing could probably fly you to Mars and back.

 

If that's a little pricey, do what I did and buy a used Blue-tower G3. I have TONS of goodies loaded on this thing (Photoshop, GoLive CyberStudio, Quark, LogicVS, RealProducer, etc.), and the only time it crashes is when I surf the net with, guess what? Microsoft Internet Explorer. Otherwise it's one sweet hot-rod rig.

[Alndln]

I have been using a somewhat modest PC setup(AMD K6-2 400 w/Asus Mobo)for about 2 and a half years now and it never crashes ever,I get 24 trks plus live plugs(Waves,Tc ect)in Cakewalk 9.03.I won't be drawn into some ignorant PC/MAC debate since both platforms are just just a different UI over the SAME DOS,SAME HARDWARE.I'll just simply state that I have freinds who have both and have equal problems,especially with CUBASE 5.0,or shall I say Cubase "Beta" as Cubase users call it(their words,not mine),if you don't believe me just go to Cubase.net and just glance at the Forums page.That aside,your problem sounds hardware related,not software as you reformatted with the same results.You must state your hardware/software config in detail so I or any one else can help you,a lot of times a problem like yours is either video or too many cards or IRQ conflicts which can easily be solved.Also surf to www.audioforums.com were you'll get a ton of help from experienced users if you state your setup(audio card type,video card type,HD settings ect.)in detail.Oh by the way,my new Thunder bird 800 w/Asus mobo(non jumper mode)/RME Hammerfall/4 new Western digi 100/7200 13mb trns per/Presonus front end doesn't crash either,it just screams and sounds great and didn't cost much.

[Curve Dominant]

Alndln@hotmail.com says,"I won't be drawn into some ignorant PC/MAC debate since both platforms are just just a different UI over the SAME DOS,SAME HARDWARE."

 

Important distinction: PCs use pentium processors; Mac G4 uses Altivec G4 duel-processor w/velocity engine. Hardly the same hardware.

 

No ignorant debate intended, just some factual context.

[Ethan Winer]

Originally posted by hmassey@uemedia.com:

... my Windows PC crashes every third or fourth time I boot up. It's a Pentium II / 450 system with tons of RAM (128 MB) and it's running under Windows 98 (the second release).

 

Windows 98 SE is solid and stable. I've been using it for 10 months and my system NEVER crashes. The first thing I have to ask is if the computer was bought at a store and came with twelve Internet providers, 75 bundled and demoware programs, etc. or if you formatted the drive and installed Windows yourself. If the former... http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif

 

The best thing you can do is format the hard drive and install everything fresh. I have setup computers for five different friends so far this year, and that has worked for me every time without fail. Computers that come with everything preloaded are often flaky, so for me it's just a matter of course to erase it all and start clean.

 

--Ethan

[Guest]

I won't be drawn into some ignorant PC/MAC debate since both platforms are just just a different UI over the SAME DOS,SAME HARDWARE

 

Who told you this? No way is that the same hardware or that there a DOS backbone in the Mac OS. Your PC uses a CISC processor (unless it's AMD which uses a RISC and tranlates to CISC) which is a totally different and less efficient animal than the RISC chip. There is no DOS in the Mac OS. Mac OS X will be using a variaton of a Unix kernel as a backbone but still won't be DOS.

[Curve Dominant]

Thank you, Wormhole. I, too, was mystified by that post, because for once I wasn't trying to drawn someone into a debate! Basically, I think people who have never operated sophisticated software on a PowerMac simply cannot appreciate what they are missing. If anyone feels they may fit into this category, might I suggest a visit to one of the periodic IMAX conferences that take place around the country, where one can hands-on demo this stuff extensively for comparison.

[Guest]

hmassey - I think I have had the same problem on a PII 350. iexplorer wouldn't shut down properly and even a c/a/delete wouldn't fix it. Then I downloaded Netsonic cos it's free and it said it would speed up the net, well all it did was give me heaps of spam so I uninstalled it and wow...suddenly my iexplorer problem was fixed. I'm sure someone will give you a much better solution but mine worked http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif

 

cheers

John http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

[Alndln]

OK,so I don't keep up on the latest developments of the latest Mac OS so I probably blundered a bit on that one but not the rest,as far as hardware I was refering to audio hardware(This is an audio forum isn't it?),to my knowledge unless your using a full blown Pro Tools system your using the same cross platform Audio cards as Windows users are,same scsi & ide hd's,according to you Motorola and Intel are both cisc chips,so as far as hardware goes whats different?Dual processors?Windows NT and many mobo manf. support it as well as sonic foundry's Vegas software,although with my AMD Thunderbird 800 I hardly have any use for that,If Intel is cisc and Amd is Risc here are some differences between the Athlon and P 3, Operations per clock cycle:Amd=9 Intel=5,Integer pipelines:Amd=3 Intel=2,Floating point piplines:Amd 3,Intel=2,L1 cache size:Amd=128kb,Intel=32kb,L2 cache=same,total on chip full speed cache:Amd=384kb,Intel=288kb,system bus speed:Amd=200-400mhz,Intel=100-133mhz,Peak bus bandwidth:Amd=1.6 gig to 3.2 gig,Intel=533mb-1.06gig,bus outstanding transactions:Amd=24 per ,Intel=4.8 per,Total instuctions:Amd=45,Intel=71(26 reserved for future use),so is Intel(cisc)superior to Amd(risc)?Hardly,although in real world applications you simply cannot tell the difference(Iv'e used all three) between Intel/Amd/Motorola of similar strength.My original somewhat angry response was in reply to the resonse to the original poster who instead of getting help,he gets bashed unessesarily for the platform he's using,As a working Proffesional I find there is no room for ignorant responses on a pro audio forum and my Mac freinds(I have many) whole heartedly agree.

[Curve Dominant]

Alndln:

 

Now slow your roll, son, and simma down now. I was not bashing hmassey, but rather the products he's been sold. And it's my right to express my opinion on a product that was created by a company that has been hauled before federal and state courts for unlawful business practices, as well as passing off defective products for a quick buck. So don't you go putting words in my mouth and accusing me of being ignorant, when your posts hardly carry any integrity due to some rather obvious technical misrepresentations.

[Alndln]

Name 1 technical misrepresentation from my last post,also no matter how you or I feel about Microsoft the long and short of it is you insulted the guy's choice of platform rather than offered anything in the way of help.

[Curve Dominant]

Alndln:

 

My original post stated: "Well, for starters, you could sell that piece of @#$%&*! and get a Mac G4 with 500mhz duel processor, for which Cubase has just released software that utilizes the duel processor by assigning half of your tracks to one processor, and the other half to the other." You replied with,"I won't be drawn into some ignorant PC/MAC debate since both platforms are just just a different UI over the SAME DOS,SAME HARDWARE." Name 1 technical misrepresentation? That's two right there.

 

Your assertion that I "insulted the guy's choice of platform rather than offered anything in the way of help" is just one more glaring misstatement by someone who obviously loves Micro$oft and takes personally any critique of its products. Maybe you work for Micro$oft, and if so, I apologize if I've hurt your feelings. Satisfied?

[Guest]

Last night we had the motherof all storms go through, sort of like being in a car wash, blew a section of roofing out over my bed so I was busy clearing up that area, I had disconected my puter (lightning) but was so busy with the bed i didn't realise there was water getting to my puter.

I waited till this morning and when i booted it up the monitor was blank, but....up she came eventually and is now at full power. Wow .. can't imagine being without it. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif

 

cheers

John

[Anderton]

Hey Howard,

 

Good to see you here, although the reason sucks .

 

>>What happens is, just at the very end of the bootup phase, I get an error dialog simply saying that Explorer has shut down; clicking either option does nothing and a warm boot (Ctrl/Alt/Del) doesn't work either; I need to do a hard boot to get going again. Sometimes this will happen two or three times in a row before the machine comes to life; other times, I can go weeks without the problem occurring at all. I did a complete clean reinstall of the OS and the problem still remains. <<

 

This sounds like a registy problem, because Windows will reload an older version if it encounters a problem. Sometimes it takes a few boots for it to find the right one. But, then it should stick with the version that's known to work, so the fact that it starts over from scratch seems to indicate something else.

 

I STRONGLY suggest you get a copy of Adaptec's GoBack. This is the coolest PC software on the planet and it's only $50. Then start over from scratch - reformat the hard drive and install the OS (you say not too much is installed, so it shouldn't be a big deal). Add peripherals and programs one at a time. If a problem crops up, just GoBack to a time prior to the problem's existence. Not only will you find out what's causing the problem, you'll be able to get back to when the system was working.

 

Also check RAM (it could be defective) and IRQ conflicts. Some devices can share IRQs, some can't. Also, I assume you're using some cool sound card. Make sure any sound functions embedded on the motherboard are completely disabled.

 

There are many more possibilities - improper BIOS settings, motherboard problem, etc. - but try the GoBack route. That program has changed my life!!

 

As to the other posts - I'm a dual platform guy. I think both systems have major stability problems. I find the Windows OS more functional, the Mac OS more elegant. RISC chips sounded like a good idea at the time, but Motorola/Apple didn't anticipate how much mileage Intel was able to get out of their technology. There is pretty much parity between the two types of processors, regardless of whatever marketing blather comes from either camp.

 

I would say that once you get a stable Windows system - which can take some doing! - it tends to stay stable. A Mac won't do the glorious technicolor crashes Windows can do when it's in a bad mood, but instead has lots of little annoying habits (like when my PowerBook wakes up after going to sleep, and thinks it's 1904). Windows is much better at managing memory and multiple programs, but Apple should achieve parity in that respect with OS X.

 

Macs work great with a limited number of programs that are optimized for that platform. The use of dual processor technology is a good example; Windows NT can manage dual processors, but Windows 9X cannot. Windows is much better at being a general purpose machine, and the help systems on Windows programs are vastly better than the way the Mac handles help. The ideal OS is neither Windows nor OS X; it's an OS that doesn't exist, because it combines the best features of both. Frankly, though, if each company keeps copying the other, maybe that will happen before too long. Just as Windows 95 took some of the Mac's best features and added a few cool twists, OS X takes some of Windows' better features and improves on those. Progress marches on...

[hmasseyuemedia.com]

Thanks to Craig and everybody who offered helpful suggestions. (I'm not quite sure why my simple request for assistance somehow turned into one of those always tedious Wintel-vs.-Mac debates, but there you go.)

 

I know how to check for IRQ conflicts (there aren't any in my system), but how do I check the RAM? I'll be sure to try the other fixes suggested here and will let all of you know what worked and what didn't.

[Alndln]

Bad ram is not alway's easily detected,I just recently put a system together for my brother and everything seemed fine but after a couple hours after power up the computer would crash with those colorful on screen displays Craig was refering to,after I tried reebooting a couple of times I would get the dreaded blue screen with a message: High mem. sys.Windows has detected unreliable memory ect. ect..So I took out the newer 128 stick and left the PC on all night and sure enough that was the culprit,so we exchanged the ram for a new stick and everything has been fine since.Do you have 2 sound cards in your system?scsi?ata 66?sometimes 2 cards that claim high upper memory can cause problems over a span of time.If you explain your setup we can nail this down a lot easier.

[Uh Clem]

Howard - great to see you on here - I really enjoy so much reading your articles.

 

RAM is a pesky thing and could be your problem. Finding a good RAM testing diagnositc is next to impossible in my experience. It often comes down to breaking open the box and rearranging or removing the RAM chips until the problem goes away.

 

Although, I prefer NT over Win9x, I think there are a large number of users who achieve stability with the platform.

 

The fact that you have done a fresh install and that the problem is intermittent points to hardware. RAM could certainly be an issue, but is not the only possibilty. Some piece of hardware that is getting hit by the driver at bootup could be failing.

 

Contrary to what the Govt would like to believe, Explorer is deeply intergrated into Win9X and an Explorer crash message is nearly useless as it could point to any underlying failure.

 

Since is is a PII, I have to think you've had the system a while and it has suddenly begun to have this problem. Can you think back at what changes you have made most recently that could have destabalized it? Added RAM, updated a hardware driver, added hardware (audio card, camera, scanner, video card), ungraded the OS, updated the BIOS?

 

If you come up with any thought along those lines and can temporarilly back out of it, that may help. Make only one change at a time - very important or you'll never figure out what's going on.

 

Some things you could try if you want to get a little more Sherlock Holmes with it:

 

After a crash, when booting up hold the CTRL key down as soon as you see the Win98 Splash Screen - this will take you to some prompts where you can select to boot to the commansd prompt only. From there you can take a look at the bootlog.txt file (TYPE BOOTLOG.TXT | MORE) to see if there is a specific driver that shows an error on loading.

 

You can also boot up holding the CTRL Key and select a confirmation boot up where each driver that loads asks you for a Y/N to load it. This can take a while to get thru, but can help you find out exactly after which driver the explosion occurs. If it is not in the same spot twice, RAM becomes the more likely culprit.

 

Craig, it was great to see your more informed view on the merits of one platform over the other. I am a Windows user for historical reasons - if I had the space, the time, or the funds, I might go the DUAL route to try both. In a former career I supported both platforms for large corporations and as you say, they both have their issues - the nature of computers and software.

 

Why is it everyone has to become so judgemental about these type of issues? My MAC is better than your WinPC, my Strat can smoke your Les Paul, my Ford can trounce your Chevy, my Bose will blow away your Klipsch, Hendrix sux, Manilow rules! (OK, who said that?), my Analog distortion of reality is more hip than your Digital distortion of reality.

 

There are so few facts in Art and so many opinions - can't we try to be a little more tolerant of diversity, at least, if we can't really appreciate it. If we can't do this over a stupid machine, how are we ever going to make progress accepting different races and cultures?

 

You know, that old "Variety is the Spice of Life" thing? I think the guy that said that was on to something.

 

 

As far as Religion, I'm a Baptist and a good friend of the Pope, and I always wear a Jewish Star for luck.

 

Louis Armstrong

 

 

I can't stand to sing the same song the same way two nights in succession, let alone two years or ten years. If you can, then it ain't music, it's close-order drill, or exercise or yodeling or something, not music.

 

Billie Holiday

 

[This message has been edited by stevepow (edited 11-07-2000).]

[Guest]

Could I get your opinions on products like Fixit 2000

http://www.ontrack.com/

 

I use it regularly to clean up my directory..any thoughts on this kind of product

 

Cheers

John

[Anderton]

Howard -- one more thought....

I know you know how to check IRQs, but there's another IRQ function that is a bit more esoteric. If you go into the BIOS, you can dedicate a specific slot to a specific IRQ. This is great for dealing with "legacy" cards and problem children -- plug them into this special slot, and dedicate it to one IRQ. Also, another thought: swap some cards around in different slots. That can make a big difference, I'm not exactly sure why but I think it has to do with the order in which Windows recognizes peripheral cards. Good luck!!